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PCV Delete debate

This is a discussion on PCV Delete debate within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Cutlass So Kool-aide, are you running a PCV/catch can/no breather setup without a pcv valve? Thats what ...

  1. #41
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    So Kool-aide, are you running a PCV/catch can/no breather setup without a pcv valve? Thats what I'm considering doing. Does it run ok? Seems like a PCV valve is a small/metered vacuum leak and without one would be a big vacuum leak.
    i ran three variations and did not notice a difference. of course i don't race nor run WOT, very often. I will drop gears and get on it but I don't run all over town pulling 10 MPGs and stuff.

    I ran the Home Depot brand catch can to atmosphere. It was pretty simple to do. You buy about 6 feet of 3/8 hose and run it form the normal hard pipe where the PCV used to be. You plug the the side of the intake. I ran my hose right under where the TB coolant line used to be. from there you just tie it up and run it to where ever you want up front. I do admit this is smelly, but I had to get my face down by it to notice. In one of my threads someone posted pics of theirs. They ran it to the passenger front and down by the radiator drain plug. Thats what I want to do. It is hidden, and accessible for drain and cleaning. I just didn't have enough hose that day to do it all.

    Next I decided to run it on the other side and back into the intake. There was this long conversation about the LS1 and MAF and tuning, "metered air," and stuff. I don't have a tune on my car so I decided for fun to run it back into the intake and see if there was a diff. The only thing I noticed was I catch more goo now. It was dark oil looking. When I dumped to atmosphere all i ever had in there was really smelly water vapor. I never did cap off the TB valve cover lines. I wanted to try that too.

    Next I put the PCV back in to see what it would do. The only thing I noticed was it seems to catch even more goo. And it is a strange tan sludge color, not oil looking at all. It is like a tan milky goo gunk, nasty stuff.

    I don't know if it is the diff between regular gas and winter gas or what. In all three variations i did not notice a change in my car idling, driving or accelerating. My wife preferred the first look where it was hidden up front behind the head light venting to atmosphere.

    Honestly I think once it warms up again I will take the PCV out. I don't like cleaning that strange slime out. I am no expert at all so I have no idea why I saw three different conditions like this. I put the PCV back in because I thought maybe all that 3/8 hose was letting too much go by too fast. But really a catch can or a regular oil separate should be able to handle the flow just fine. I think the PCV in my case is what is causing the strange sludge junk.

    The nice metal catch cans look nice, but an oil/water separator sue is really cheap. It is designed to do the same thing as a metal catch can, separator oil and water from air that has it mixed in, . Sure it looks strange and goofy, but if I could get to the back to mount it you would never see it. I'm just to lazy to tear into have the stuff under the hood just to mount it and then you have to empty. I find it catches very little per few hundred miles which seems to be in line with what others have said about the metal catch cans.

    I don't have any way to measure what is going on with the engine. All I have is my SES and butt. I never threw a code, and never complained about mashing the gas. My gas mileage followed the weight of my foot.

    hope this helps. i don't feel very useful on this subject. I think i understand the concept of why the PCV exists. But i sure don't understand why dumping to atmosphere would cause the car to run funny. I run with the PCV that is a straight hole, not the spring loaded one. I forget the part number, PCV 1000 or something like that. It is basically the little tin PCV with a pin hole in one side. I would love to have another conversation about the system and air flow. I personally think if you don't have a check valve in the system then the argument of sucking air back in the opposite way exists in a PCV and atmosphere dump system, to me they are one in the same. So unless you run a PCV valve that shuts on reverse flow. I don't get the sucking in air argument I have heard. The only argument I have heard that makes since about not dumping to atmosphere is the tree hugger argument. Other than that I am totally stubborn and dense as heck to why you must route back into the intake for the car to run properly.

    i this typing has made me hungry and tired. I need a donut and a nap now.

  2. #42
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    if i had a brain i would be dangerous, lol... It is this post that had pics of the home depot mounted under the car by the radiator drain. It was Rage Against the Minivan that posted them, but i see the links are no good now. I also think Rage can better describe why the PCV works the way it does. He kept loosing me, . I like Sarge's explanation on his GTO post and that's where the idea came from. I am still curious if a PCV in the system really makes a diff. What affect is there with a PCV or without. All I can think of is air flow, but I don't see why that would be bad. As I mentioned before unless you have a valve that slams shut to prevent reverse flow. The idea of a vacuum leak falls apart in my opinion.

    Doesn't PCV stand for Positive Crank Ventilation? Wouldn't that name really tell a short story of what it does? I take gas build up from the crank and move it out to somewhere else. But since it is dirty nasty stuff i don't want it to go to the world and kill the rabbits and trees. I will pass it back into the combustion via the intake. Where some of it gets burned up a second time. I don't see where there is a vacuum in this system. I can see under different loads you will have a different amount of fluid (the oil, gas, air, etc mix, its all a fluid) wanting to go places. In this case you are asking what happens at the valve covers on an LS1. We have a tube on the drivers side, one on the passenger side, and then one that goes to the TB. I still have no clue why the TB one exists. I would have to go back and read this thread again, . To me it seems like there are to ways for the crank to vent, the PCV main lines and that TB line. Call me dense but I don't see how the location on the valve cover guarantees you only have fluid moving through the main PCV line. I mean crap that little pin hole PCV is not exactly high flow avenue compared to that fat 3/9 TB line between the valve cover and the TB. There must be some fluid moving through there. I am interested to hear more about that line and what happens wen you cap it off.

    Honestly I'm not being stubborn or a jerk about this subject when I rant on about stuff or I seam unwilling to accept something at face value. I would like to discuss the system and the fluid in it and picture why it works the way it does, and no i don't believe in magic. If i am not mistaken I do believe fluid will travel a path based on resistance, just like current and voltage. This is why I am interested in the valve cover to TB line on the passenger side. to me that just screams low resistance when I compare it to the long travel of the PCV lines with that restrictive PCV tin thing in it.

    i am just a nut, basket case, crazy. i spend more time being fascinated by probably one of the silliest parts on a car. I might as well start a thread on why a car horn works, lol....

  3. #43
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Ok so I read Rage's post again and started over thinking again. In case anyone wants to know why you should legalize pot, just tell them to listen to me sober, lol...

    Here is a quick table
    CRUISE POWER
    -high vacuum on the dirty line, pulling air through the pcv valve.
    -clean air is flowing through the clean line, replenishing the crankcase.
    -The crankcase has constant air flow. Normal "Positive Crankcase Ventilation" operation.

    WOT
    -Most amount of blow by is occurring, pressurizing the crankcase
    -little or no vacuum on dirty line from the intake. Pressure from the crankcase is flowing through the valve.
    -Since little air can go through the valve, the extra pressurized "dirty" is also blowing through the 'clean air' line to the TB. This is where oil mist is blown all over the throttle blade, gumming it up.
    -High HP engines also blow out the oil dipstick if the the two pcv lines cannot let all the blow by out

    HIGH RPM, THROTTLE CLOSED (ENGINE BRAKING)
    -highest vacuum in the intake, pulls the hardest on the pcv. Any oil mist blown into the line during WOT is sucked in.
    -clean air line is now flowing clean air back into the crankcase, normal air flow direction.
    -ls1's may have blue exhaust from burning the oil mist that was blown into the intake from WOT


    I just read this again and thought about the clean vs. dirty line under load. Wouldn't taking the PCV out of the system be beneficial? You would have essentially two lines with near same resistance to push the crank gases through. I guess what I am wondering is under load or WOT it seems like a catch can on the PCV is useless. If everything it getting pushed through the TB line because it sees less resistance, well then, you are not catching anything. In my example you pull the PCV out and let the system have a 3/8 run through your oil separator. under load or WOT you would have a chance to passing that fluid through the separate and not the TB line. Why do you need a clean and dirty line?

    To further muddy the waters does the LS6 or LS2 have a clean line going to the TB and a dirty line that is the PCV lines? Where I am going with this is the LS1 passenger valve cover is open space, so that clean line and dirty line is plugged in to the same space. What is the difference between one line running to the intake post TB and one running into the TB? They are both holes that allow fluid to pass through. Why is the TB line pulling in clean air and the PCV line pushing dirty air under normal cruising load? Under load or WOT you are just sucking as much air in to the intake as you can right, but wait. You still have to lines on that valve cover. The only reason I can see why the TB clean line starts pushing dirty fluid and the PCV doesn't is because there is a spring loaded thing that will plug up that hole in the PCV. Change your PCV to one that doesn't have that and you now have a path for dirty fluid to flow. So what happens in the system when you change PCV parts like this? It would seem under normal cruise nothing. It would sound like under load you get fluid passing through the least resistive line. Does this mean the less restrictive line pulls in air or would it still push some dirty stuff out thus giving you to vent paths?

    not just all of that, why do you need a clean line? What other engines out there have a clean line on the TB? Again I have this picture of the valve cover sitting on the head and empty space above the rockers with two hose sticking out of it. What really causes one to push fluid and one to suck fluid? And why do you need this if other engines don't have it? At some point I will argue you can't just say because it is an LS1. That's like saying the LS1 is special and no V8 engine out there is like it.

    When you do the LS6 valley cover swap, don't you plug the valve cover ports and run the PCV right off the valley cover? There would be no clean and dirty in that case. I know it sounds like apples and oranges, but i think it is a valid point to why does the TB line exist.

    man. the last time i spent this much time thinking about something that seemed so little and meaningless was how the affects of going from from a 40 hour work week to a 32 hour work week (that is a 20% pay cut) would play out when you start your new job on a Tuesday and your pay cycles are twice a month, not every week or two weeks.

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    my head blew up and messed up my wife's pretty home. i have to go now. i don't think the Mr Clean magic eraser will get this stuff out. i better call in the wolf.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    Oh I completely agree that the PCV and catch can conversation is nearly 100% pointless, but I just wanna get my head wrapped completely around the subject so I can decide how to set up my PCV and catch can the best way possible for my car.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool-aide View Post
    We have a tube on the drivers side, one on the passenger side, and then one that goes to the TB. I still have no clue why the TB one exists
    That hose (the TB hose) serves the same purpose as a breather. Its clean, filtered air back into the engine crankcase when intake vacuum is high (idle, cruising, and decel). At WOT it bleeds of excess crankcase pressure that the PCV valve can't flow.
    Last edited by Cutlass; 03-01-2010 at 06:40 PM.

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    as you can see I wrapped my head around something, don't know what, but boy i was spinning fast than a Taz Devil, and more incoherent too.

    I think I agree with you on the TB line. Seems to serve an environ friendly purpose vs. a valve cover breather.

    Would you agree that if you took the PCV valve out you could cap the TB lines? Then you wouldn't have the PCV valve restricting flow at WOT.

    Now I am speaking a stock car on all this. Until Santa's elves bring me that 9" rear I wouldn't even dare try and increase the HP and Torque.

    I know I asked Sarge once and he said cap it. I just haven't tried it yet. I don't like fooling around on the car when it is cold out. Makes those busted knuckles a real joy, .

    I think in a week or two i will be in the mood to see what i can screw up next. Just for looks I have always wanted that breather you stick in the oil fill. It makes me feel like I have an old classic muscle car, lol... I had one, then I put a dent in my head or something insane and sold it.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    yeah you can cap the TB line and use a valve cover breather instead. you could leave the pcv valve in and do that. That way excess pressure at WOT doesn't bleed back into the intake.

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    I see your point.

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    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
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    well I should have said the WOT excess crankcase pressure will go through both the breather and the PCV. So if you have a catch can on the PCV hose, that will filter out any oil mist. That will make sure you have a clean dry intake manifold!!
    I think I'm finally understanding the PCV valve/catch can/breather debate

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    i may be behind you, just not sure how far, lol...

    I often think of the PCM too. It is common that it is supposed to learn for minor changes. So let's use that theory and apply it on the PCV. If the PCM really can adjust the curves for small modifications. Wouldn't changes to the PCV system be a small change, and thus can compensate?

    That's why I am all for trying out different configurations. And I would like to try the Valve cover breather, capped TB line, and then run the PCV through the oil separator with no PCV. This sounds like the PCM could handle the change, but that is just a wild guess. I get to vent my crank case, catch my oil, and only hurt the rabbits and trees a tiny bit. I am certainly not hurting them as much as some of the beaters I have to pass on the highway, .

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    Would a vac-u-pan system work in place of a PCV to help let the engine breath and relieve internal pressure. Possibly run a hose off of the valve cover down to a one way check valve on my long tube header ? Any opinions ?

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    could you use the air pump as a vacuum pump? hook the the intake hose for the pump to the left side valve cover ,and a PCV valve hooked up to the right valve cover as a metered breather.

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    i don't think it quite works that way. I don't think you want to suck stuff out. You just want to let it breath normally with out excess pressure build up. I can't imaging what would happen if you tried to suck the gas out. You could end up causing something to go wrong. I would love to hear a PCV expert tackle those two questions.

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    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    I thought I would post a pic of the oil separator after a few weeks of driving. This is with the PCV 1009. The stuff that collects inside is like a gooey sludge. It smells like exhaust and oil, so i guess the smell is normal. I remember when I didn't have the PCV it was more like water and oil floating in the bottom. I took the PCV out. After a few weeks I will take another picture.

    All the way at the bottom.

    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2954870/1

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarge View Post
    you would better served utilizing a top end lube like tcw3....but i like the way you think
    tcw3 ???????

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2000dreambird View Post
    tcw3 ???????
    its 2 cycle oil.....sarge promotes it as top end lube......not jus any 2 cycle oil....it has to have that tcw3 on it

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjsingle1 View Post
    its 2 cycle oil.....sarge promotes it as top end lube......not jus any 2 cycle oil....it has to have that tcw3 on it
    ok but i dont understand what you do with it im sure you dont mix it in the gas

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    add to gas...........1 ounce to 5 gal he has a thread on it sum where.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjsingle1 View Post
    add to gas...........1 ounce to 5 gal he has a thread on it sum where.......
    But won't that cause the knock sensor to retard the timing?

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    i cant find the thread...PM sarge and i am sure he will hook you up....he does have that thread....i am a oil junkie

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