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maf

This is a discussion on maf within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; cool, maybe i can start stashing the pennies in the bank. good to hear its not so scary....

  1. #21
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    cool, maybe i can start stashing the pennies in the bank. good to hear its not so scary.

  2. #22
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    don't take the screen out unless you are equipped to re-map your MAF's lookup table

  3. #23
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    i hope the thread owner is watching, oops. what happens to those of us that screwed up?

  4. #24
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    not much, you will likely just cost yourself some HP from it being richer than before up top. Most of you guys that are at the boltons stage are already way too rich anyway, so it is most likely counterproductive unless done right before tuning.

  5. #25
    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    Don't do it!! It is a old bull shit trick. Yeah maybe a few actually gained power but thats only because it happened to richen their lean condition NOT because it's a free horse power mod.
    As Larry and others said you will need some one to re map the maf tables which isn't the easiest and I have seen MANY do more damage than good.
    Here is a couple links to where we have covered this in vast detail in the past.
    MAF sensor gut it or keep screen in?

    De-screen MAF? Yes or No...

    Don't be afraid of the bottle!!! Be afraid of your tune!!!

  6. #26
    Member 02WS6dream's Avatar
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    staying loosely on topic here.....what about someone that may have bent one of the little wire sensors when cleaning?? Didn't break, just moved a bit...

  7. #27
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    not much, you will likely just cost yourself some HP from it being richer than before up top. Most of you guys that are at the boltons stage are already way too rich anyway, so it is most likely counterproductive unless done right before tuning.
    lol...guess us stock guys goofing around in the garage didn't do the perf any favors. well, i don't race the car and it is not my money maker. I just like goofing off and getting my head away from stressful work.

    i didn't plan on any tuning until i bought a good bolt on like headers or something.

    thank god my daily commute is about 25 miles round trip. i buy about 2.5 tanks a month. I doubt my little goof is going to break my gas budget and since i don't race i'm not losing to any one.

    i will look forward to tuning the car in the future. hope the thread owner is thinking twice about the MAF.

  8. #28
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    Don't do it!! It is a old bull shit trick. Yeah maybe a few actually gained power but thats only because it happened to richen their lean condition NOT because it's a free horse power mod.
    As Larry and others said you will need some one to re map the maf tables which isn't the easiest and I have seen MANY do more damage than good.
    Here is a couple links to where we have covered this in vast detail in the past.
    MAF sensor gut it or keep screen in?

    De-screen MAF? Yes or No...

    i read that second thread again. I forgot about it, and that i posted in it. I still stand by my advice, leave it alone, or do what you want and just pay to fix any thing that breaks later.

    mine is out because i got bored and cowboy one day with a dremel tool. i didn't plan to take it out, it was leave a bruised one in or take it out.

    i thought the computer could compensate for the diff, guess not. i also didn't know it affects the A4. had i known that i would have bought another one to play with. either way thread owner, think about what you want and what you can afford.

    i live 12 miles from work. i should be riding a bike, lol.

  9. #29
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    It's not the end of the road, I have tuned a ton of cars with descreened/ported/MAF-ended setups. If your tuner is good, a full MAF mapping can be done in a few pulls. It can be done in as little as two pulls on a load dyno. MAF mapping is a core part of tuning a car that uses one anyway. Even the old school tuners that tune WOT with PE are inadvertedly mapping the MAF error, though they likely don't realize it. If they have to command 11.3 (1.299) to get 12.8 in a particular cell, that 13% error in commanded vs. actual is really a 13% error in the MAF table at that point.

  10. #30
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    this is a little off topic but following the tuning topic.......I noticed when I went to OLSD over the summer that I was having lean spikes during positive throttle transitions and rich spikes during negative transistions. Know what the reason is behind that? I have a few little quirks in my tune that I just haven't figured out yet and that's one of them.

  11. #31
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    could be a number things, from the VE just needed a little refinement to (if it's very regular) possibly short-pulse related injector tuning, to (least likely) the need to alter transitional fueling (fuel "on the wall" or film fueling).

    The biggest problem with OLSD in our cars is the bias table, which causes the cars to drift lean in summer and rich in winter, which is opposite of what is expected if fueling remained static, and proves the error in the bias table. This table takes TONS of time and math that is beyond many engineers to refine. Forget that, that is what closed loop is for. Tune it so in the warmest weather, fuel trims are close to zero, then just leave the LTFTs disabled. There are tricks to get huge cams to idle OL and move to CL at a later point like >2K.

  12. #32
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Mines not a huge cam by any means 228R, I just notice in my logs that when I apply throttle it leans out for a few frames and when I let off the gas it goes rich for a few frames. It's most noticeable going in and out of wot. It's like it takes a few frames for the afr to drop to commanded and when I get out of the gas it takes a few for it to come back up. It delays in other words. I had also thought maybe some of that was the time it takes the wideband to actually read the transition although while I was in OLSD I had the wideband in the b2s1 location so it's pretty close to the motor and I would think the lag time would be minimal there. This is just one of the many little bothersome things I have wrong with my tune. I'm going back to clmaf this spring so I'm curious as to how it will look then.

  13. #33
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    It's not the end of the road, I have tuned a ton of cars with descreened/ported/MAF-ended setups. If your tuner is good, a full MAF mapping can be done in a few pulls. It can be done in as little as two pulls on a load dyno. MAF mapping is a core part of tuning a car that uses one anyway. Even the old school tuners that tune WOT with PE are inadvertedly mapping the MAF error, though they likely don't realize it. If they have to command 11.3 (1.299) to get 12.8 in a particular cell, that 13% error in commanded vs. actual is really a 13% error in the MAF table at that point.
    how long would you run w/ a port/polish descreen MAF without a tune? what are the ramifications? Honestly mine is not polished or well sanded. I haven't finished the sanding and smoothing job, so i know the rough surface is creating a problem.

  14. #34
    Alabama Member bamaz28's Avatar
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    you know what it runs to good to take the chance, thanks guys.
    ordering lid today and two tires then just let it eat!

  15. #35
    Miss Pennsylvania ls1blackbeauty98's Avatar
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    my boyfriend took mine out. no biggie, frees up the air alil bit so why not take it out.

  16. #36
    Alabama Member bamaz28's Avatar
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    the old saying not broke dont fix it. but i may still experiment this weekend.

  17. #37
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool-aide View Post
    how long would you run w/ a port/polish descreen MAF without a tune? what are the ramifications? Honestly mine is not polished or well sanded. I haven't finished the sanding and smoothing job, so i know the rough surface is creating a problem.

    There is no possible reason to ruin a MAF in such a fashion. If you want to take the screen out and tune it, that's one thing, but why try to "port" it out? IF you are that concerned about restriction, look at exhaust and engine parts.



    Quote Originally Posted by ls1blackbeauty98 View Post
    my boyfriend took mine out. no biggie, frees up the air alil bit so why not take it out.
    It is posted in this very thread why not to do this

  18. #38
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    There is no possible reason to ruin a MAF in such a fashion. If you want to take the screen out and tune it, that's one thing, but why try to "port" it out? IF you are that concerned about restriction, look at exhaust and engine parts.





    It is posted in this very thread why not to do this

    I agree, I was experimenting with my dremel and Al parts. I wanted to try something on the MAF before working on my TB.

    So Frost, how long would you run a MAF with no screen and center section without a tune? It's too late to go back now, but i'm not in the mood to tune for something this silly. If i had headers or something else that was big i can see getting a tune. I just want an idea of long term affects while i shop for a new MAF housing. thanks


    glad to hear Bamaz28 has decided to leave it alone.


    thanks

  19. #39
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    If your car is running ok I wouldn't worry about it too much. The solution is to get headers and then have it tuned with the maf remapped.

  20. #40
    Senior Member kool-aide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    If your car is running ok I wouldn't worry about it too much. The solution is to get headers and then have it tuned with the maf remapped.
    runs ok to me. maybe the shifts are a little softer than normal, but not sure. I haven't used my Actron to look at any data.

    can the shifts be affected by this, like softer?

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