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k&n vs paper

This is a discussion on k&n vs paper within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by gnomee Man this is a tired old topic. Everyone HAS to ask it so no big deal ...

  1. #21
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomee View Post
    Man this is a tired old topic. Everyone HAS to ask it so no big deal OP

    Here is my personal experience:

    1. It is proven oiled filters flow better. How much or if its worth it falls right into the category of gutting cats, throttle body bypass and free ram air mod. Too each his own.

    2. I personally liked the K&N and 100% can say the only way oil messes up your MAF is if you do not follow the cleaning instructions and over oil it. If you follow the instructions and let the oil dry there will be no MAF issues.

    3. I have switched back to paper on all my cars. In order to properly clean the filter, let it air dry then let the oil dry is at least an all day event. So everytime I cleaned my filters I would start mid afternoon and my car would be stuck until the morning. Frankly, that is ridiculous for maybe 5hp these days. Now my younger self had no issues with that and enjoyed the tinkering.
    I whole heartedly agree with this!

    Like I previously stated, for my carbed 67 (750 Holley DP) the K&N oiled air filter is the best around. At age 55 I don't mind waiting all day for it to dry. I've also got more than my $$$'s worth out of it and it still works. Then again I no longer drive it back and forth to work...

  2. #22
    Member Rmaverickz28's Avatar
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    My cusion as a 67 gt 302 750 holly had the oiled k'n then I told him about the amsolil filter we have a friend with a dyno no bs 10 more hp than the k'n and compare to the two the amsoil filter is thicker and can be cleaned with there oli

    Back in the day k'n was a great filter but now with companys like blackwing and amsoil k'n falls short sorry...new tech cant beat it, if we tryed to advoid new tech we whould not have the ls1(for example if we din't want EFI cus we din't want to change with new tech and keep the carbs going no ls1!!) Food for thought!!!
    Last edited by Rmaverickz28; 11-24-2010 at 09:08 PM.

  3. #23
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rmaverickz28 View Post
    My cusion as a 67 gt 302 750 holly had the oiled k'n then I told him about the amsolil filter we have a friend with a dyno no bs 10 more hp than the k'n and compare to the two the amsoil filter is thicker and can be cleaned with there oli

    Back in the day k'n was a great filter but now with companys like blackwing and amsoil k'n falls short sorry...new tech cant beat it, if we tryed to advoid new tech we whould not have the ls1(for example if we din't want EFI cus we din't want to change with new tech and keep the carbs going no ls1!!) Food for thought!!!
    Like I previously stated, I bought the K&N 3" tall x 14" diameter waaaaaaay back in 1984 and it I still/use have it.

    The K&N claims a 1 million (1,000,000) mile life expantancy. I used it for 1/4 of it's claimed life and it still works.

    Can the Amsoil air filter claim the same life expantancy?

  4. #24
    Member Rmaverickz28's Avatar
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    bet the farm on it jack!!! Yippa ka ya mother F%$#%^&

  5. #25

    Post Why do we use air filters?

    Letís take a step back and consider the fundamentals.

    Whatís the primary reason we use an air filter in the first place?

    We use an air filter to keep dirt and other debris out of our engine.

    The lack of proper dirt holding capacity in an air filter gives way to an abrasive slurry suspended within the engine oil. This is the leading cause of bearing wear and engine failure.

    The air filter is first, the primary, means to combat dirt intrusion into our engine. We must insure we have optimal dirt holding capacity with our air filter and that our air filter housing is secure from leaks where dirt intrusion can occur.

    If we can establish that one type/brand of air filter gives us better air flow without sacrificing dirt holding capacity, thatís great!

    If we can establish that one type/brand of air filter gives us a longer useful filter live span without sacrificing dirt holding capacity, thatís great!

    But never should we sacrifice dirt holding capacity for slightly better initial air flow and or extended filter life expectancy, never!

    That is unless we are racing and only concerned with maximum air flow and not maximum engine life...

    Below, a couple of quotes Iíve found useful:

    "From a lube engineer's perspective that looks at a hundred or so oil analysis results a day, I would highly recommend you or anyone running a K&N or other aftermarket air filter do an engine oil analysis to determine that the filter is indeed doing its job. I can easily spot a K&N equipped vehicle oil analysis results as in 90% of cases the filter keeps out bricks and birds very effectively but little else. The #1 cause of reduced engine life is dirt. The #1 engine oil alert I look at is dirt. One teaspoon of dirt will destroy a large V-16 CAT engine.. i.e. we need to make sure we have the best filter media, tightest induction system possible to ensure maximum engine life. If you look at a K&N filter you can see through the medium very easily. Supposedly the 'tackifier' grabs the incoming dirt particles. Visualize a dirt particle approaching the filter medium at 100+ MPH: there is NO oil, no tackifier that is going to reach out and capture that particle. Filter face impact velocity is just too great." Cited: George Morrison - link
    And

    "The KN filter was originally invented in 1964 for SCCA weekend track racing by Ken Johnson and Norm McDonald, where many were previously running without any air filter protecting the engine, and the oiled cotton gauze was a slightly better choice... the lesser of two evils.

    Ken and Norm later sold out for a small fortune in the 1990s.

    When totally new and clean,
    but without excessive oil,
    the KN may have about 2 to 3 inches of water restriction less,
    but that it out of about atmosphere all around us total pressure of 404 inches of water pressure.

    The Spicer web report previously posted above has good graphs showing this, but also shows how quickly the KN clogs up, and it lesser particle trapping efficiency.

    For daily driving use
    shouldn't the restriction of a filter be measured out at 5000 to 10000 miles?
    Shouldn't you be more interested in the 'real world' restriction during most of the time your engine is 'feeling it' and not just when new?" Cited: Other forum post

  6. #26
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    For me the issue is no longer a concern this is the last year for the Camaro.. Mileage is high (little over 100k) and it's time to strip it and start over.

    However, durring it's 5 years of sorta faithfull service it got what ever it needed the moment it needed it or the day after..lol Meaning I took the best care possible of what I had.. When it got parts it got new parts. No remanned crap.. The last thing I wanted to do was make it any more troublesome than it normally was.. Dirt in the oil was always a big concern to me.. I also wanted a little more response too. Being a 3800 car every little bit helps.. So I did what everybody @ the time was doing.. Ran out and bought this ungodly power adder thing they called K&N.. I mean hell even today first mod on most folks list is K&N something of other.. So I got to thinking about what this thing really was as far as design. I'm no engineer but I quickly came to the conclussion (in my mind anyway) after looking @ different types of CAI setups that it's the tube leading up to the ventury. This makes the difference not so much the filter persay.

    Look @ it like this. Why do you guys run long tubes?? ANSWER: Vel-ocity! Same principles apply to a vacuum which is what every engine is. Longer tube = faster air past the ventury which itself is a slight restriction as it too disrupts air flow as it's dirrectly in the air stream.. So unless you run ZERO filter there is NOT going to be much of a meaningfull difference in filters.. K&N for whatevery it does do it certainly is NOT defying the laws of physics. So to that end it therefore makes 1000 x's more sense to use a filter that filters better.. imho

    If ya want better pick up? lower the sidewall weight of your tires..
    Last edited by Smittro; 11-25-2010 at 05:36 AM.
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    lso Smittro there is that real world test Sarge talked about. smear some wheel bearing grease on your lid on the other side of the filter where its "supposed" to be clean air. drive it for an oci and check it. there will dust and junk[/QUOTE]

    Hmmm. I have KnN filters on both my cars. Ive never smeared grease in the airbox but I do check the filters. The top of the airbox and the top of the filter are always dirty. But the lower airbox is always completely dust free. Why would dust stick to one side of a plastic box and not the other?

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    Oil your underwear and wrap it around your intake. Save yourself the money over a K&N and get the same flow and filtration.
    Stay with paper or go with a dry cone like Amsoil or AEM.

  9. #29
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    I have a kn, have enough oil from previous vehicles and haven't had a problem yet with it. Clean MAF, but I also allow a week for it to dry, the TA has never been a DD for me. The only reason I keep it is b/c it didn't cost me anything, car had it, and I have 3 boxes of the oil and cleaning material.

    If I had the choice between buying one new or getting the paper ones, I'd save the money and get the paper one.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicked1 View Post
    lso Smittro there is that real world test Sarge talked about. smear some wheel bearing grease on your lid on the other side of the filter where its "supposed" to be clean air. drive it for an oci and check it. there will dust and junk

    Hmmm. I have KnN filters on both my cars. Ive never smeared grease in the airbox but I do check the filters. The top of the airbox and the top of the filter are always dirty. But the lower airbox is always completely dust free. Why would dust stick to one side of a plastic box and not the other?
    There's also real world Dyno numbers showing a gain of ~1 hp.

    Certainly not the numbers they claim..

    I personally have posted several pics of the drop in K&N held up to a light bulb that clearly shows holes large enough to see the light bulbs structure through them..

    Personally watched my motor oil turn black within 1500 miles..

    Black oil does'nt always mean bad oil..

    However....

    With just a cheap paper drop in @ 1500 miles I had honey brown colored oil instead..

    It was the first thing I noticed trying the K&N filter..

    Did'nt register on the butt dyno @ all..

    My smooth bellows and free ram air mod for my 85mm fly by wire TB did however......lol
    Last edited by Smittro; 03-06-2011 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Oil your underwear and wrap it around your intake. Save yourself the money over a K&N and get the same flow and filtration.
    Stay with paper or go with a dry cone like Amsoil or AEM.
    Lmao!

  12. #32
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    My smooth bellows and free ram air mod for my 85mm fly by wire TB did however......lol

    Thats interesting about the butt dyno. I personaly believe the ram air does help our cars. However I have read where supposed real world dyno numbers show that smooth bellows do nothing. Ram air is too hard to read on a dyno of course because the air isnt moving. But smooth bellows do nothing. My car is not a daily driver but I do drive it a good bit in the summer. It had a KnN on it when I bought it. The oil has never been dirty and I change it once per year. The car has 77000 on it and Ive owned it going on 5 years.


















































    With just a cheap paper drop in @ 1500 miles I had honey brown colored oil instead..

    It was the first thing I noticed trying the K&N filter..

    Did'nt register on the butt dyno @ all..

    My smooth bellows and free ram air mod for my 85mm fly by wire TB did however......lol[/QUOTE]

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicked1 View Post
    Thats interesting about the butt dyno. I personaly believe the ram air does help our cars. However I have read where supposed real world dyno numbers show that smooth bellows do nothing. Ram air is too hard to read on a dyno of course because the air isnt moving. But smooth bellows do nothing. My car is not a daily driver but I do drive it a good bit in the summer. It had a KnN on it when I bought it. The oil has never been dirty and I change it once per year. The car has 77000 on it and Ive owned it going on 5 years.
    I'm not concerned in the slightest if a smooth bellows adds power or not..

    I can just pull the engine and build it or get another one with more power..

    Simply put, it looks better on my 01 y87 than the big factory dryer box..

    Actual real world K&N dyno results that have been posted in multi millions of threads when the "K&N" question comes up..

    There are many UOA's posted as well..

    I've been running a paper filter (AFTER trying the MAF oiling POS K&N) for 5 plus years and have had good results...

    Modding the air box was done so that the engine can breath better than the stock setup..

    It was obvious to my ass I had done something as the engine was responding to the modification...

    Whether if added any actual HP is doubtfull..
    Last edited by Smittro; 03-09-2011 at 06:19 AM.

  14. #34
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    Guys.....we all confuse ourselfs with measuring "gains"....not all gains can be realized on a dyno. If I modifiy something.....that allows me to rev faster and get into my power band quicker....I am quicker...but I am putting down the same horsepower/torque.

    Air in.....various modifications and products (smaller underdrive pulley as an example) to increase "air in" efficiencies. If I increase my air in situation I will realize my motor revving quicker thus getting into my power band quicker. Not increase my horsepower. Still a good thing.

    Frankly the KN engineers (and others) marketing "increased horsepower" are missing the marketing oppurtunity and creating doubters and confusion. They should just say...."Use our product and rev quicker getting you into your power band faster"...and be done with it.

    Just an old mans humble observation.

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    I run K&N on the racecars and never had MAF fouling. BUT - race cars get lots of maintenance. I have not run K&N on the street cars. I prefer paper due to ease of maintenance. Back to the race cars. I run 4" smooth tube with rubber joints, no bellows, with a 90 degree bend aluminum tube just after the K&N. I do not see any oil or dirt in the tubes. It is a road race car, so lots of WOT time, lots of full flow air requirements. The CAI is a ram air set-up through the front bumper cover so it gets some pressure build at speed.

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    I will be swapping to an amsoil filer. I don't have the time to be cleaning and reoiling the k&n that I have installed.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickracer View Post
    I run K&N on the racecars and never had MAF fouling. BUT - race cars get lots of maintenance. I have not run K&N on the street cars. I prefer paper due to ease of maintenance. Back to the race cars. I run 4" smooth tube with rubber joints, no bellows, with a 90 degree bend aluminum tube just after the K&N. I do not see any oil or dirt in the tubes. It is a road race car, so lots of WOT time, lots of full flow air requirements. The CAI is a ram air set-up through the front bumper cover so it gets some pressure build at speed.
    I go by the silicon particle count from the lab. No KN's for me thanks.
    Why would I ingest dirt (silicon) into any motor when I can get the same air flow without the dirt?

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