Heads/cam/fast+labor how much?

**5second** · 10-16-2008, 05:20 PM

2000 TA, about how much should I be paying a shop for stage 3 243 patriot heads, custom cam, fast 90/90+tb, and labor + misc. gaskets and what nots.

**lemons12** · 10-16-2008, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by 5second

2000 TA, about how much should I be paying a shop for stage 3 243 patriot heads, custom cam, fast 90/90+tb, and labor + misc. gaskets and what nots.

this is what i payed for mine....

ported 90/90 = 950 used from a friend would be around 1350 if i bought and had it ported new..

ms4 cam = 150 used from friend custom cam runs about 350-450 i think

dont know about the heads man... i paid 1000 for my prc ls6 heads no springs, new in box from a friend

gaskets, oils, bolts, (probably oil sending unit), antifreeze.. and misc. stuff that add up REAL fast.. probably about 250ish depending on who you know.. i paid 100 bucks for GM head gaskets and bolts.. oil sending unit 30.. antifree oil and filter around 65.. theres more things im forgetting im sure.. i am assuming you already have bought a timing chain and oil pump, so i didnt figure that in..

i asked a friend of mine that is a mechanic how much he would do a normal persons head swap for on an ls1.. he said 450.. dont know if that was with gaskets included or not.. cam swap i guess would go for about 100 if the engine was already half way apart.. and the intake is easy as 1.2.3...

**Mr. Luos** · 10-16-2008, 05:56 PM

Stage 3 Patriot heads have valves too big for the stock bore motor.

$4K easy for install and parts. Probably more like $5K.

**5second** · 10-16-2008, 06:30 PM

thanks for the quick replies. Well I talked to patriot the sales guy said stage 3's that the heads would not fit stock bore. told the shop this guy owns a few ls1's and said he has put them on before and so has friends of his and the valve does clear. so I called patriot back and told the same salesman so he had a tech guy call me and the tech guy said that I could put them on a stock bore but their maybe a chance of clearance or that he didn't really recommend the to be put on a stock bore.

In a nut shell the guy at the shop said he has done it, it works, so I guess I roll with that since he will be responsible.

**lemons12** · 10-16-2008, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by 5second

thanks for the quick replies. Well I talked to patriot the sales guy said stage 3's that the heads would not fit stock bore. told the shop this guy owns a few ls1's and said he has put them on before and so has friends of his and the valve does clear. so I called patriot back and told the same salesman so he had a tech guy call me and the tech guy said that I could put them on a stock bore but their maybe a chance of clearance or that he didn't really recommend the to be put on a stock bore.

In a nut shell the guy at the shop said he has done it, it works, so I guess I roll with that since he will be responsible.

your welcome...

man, id stick with what patriot said... i mean they are their heads.. id call and see what they recommend... at least get a opinion from a third party that you know is educated on the subject....

**0rion** · 10-17-2008, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Luos

Stage 3 Patriot heads have valves too big for the stock bore motor.

$4K easy for install and parts. Probably more like $5K.

Originally Posted by lemons12

your welcome...

man, id stick with what patriot said... i mean they are their heads.. id call and see what they recommend... at least get a opinion from a third party that you know is educated on the subject....

the 3rd party has spoken.

Why go against what the head manufacturer recommends?

**5second** · 10-17-2008, 05:34 AM

well call me crazy but I'm gonna try it, gonna go with what the local guys have tried and done. So I will post my results in about a week. We will see!

**SSwt00SS** · 10-17-2008, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Luos

Stage 3 Patriot heads have valves too big for the stock bore motor.

$4K easy for install and parts. Probably more like $5K.

+1, I'm running Patriot Stage II heads. I recommend these to the OP (64cc) chambers (should not have to flycut to run the set-up you want)...

Originally Posted by lemons12

your welcome...

man, id stick with what patriot said... i mean they are their heads.. id call and see what they recommend... at least get a opinion from a third party that you know is educated on the subject....

4th party opinion: Stage III Patriot heads are too big for stock bore LS1's. Car will not run as strong/sound because parts will be mis-matched. Who cares what the shop manager says, he will say anything to get the business. Sure he can get it to work, but over a certain period of time, at what cost...

Originally Posted by 5second

well call me crazy but I'm gonna try it, gonna go with what the local guys have tried and done. So I will post my results in about a week. We will see!

Crazy isnt the word I would use, but whatever your car, your money, your time and resources...

**5second** · 10-17-2008, 06:19 AM

Okay, talk tech to me; what parts will mismatch my understanding they will bolt on just the valves are bigger in the head, next they wont run as strong; are you basing this off of fact, do you know someone thats done this and the car was weaker than otherwise. have anyone tried them on a stock bore or is this an assumption from you or even Patriot that they wont perform as good. lastly as far as durability and longgevity please explain how having a bigger valve than again reccommended will wear the motor down faster.

**SSwt00SS** · 10-17-2008, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by 5second

Okay, talk tech to me; what parts will mismatch my understanding they will bolt on just the valves are bigger in the head, next they wont run as strong; are you basing this off of fact, do you know someone thats done this and the car was weaker than otherwise. have anyone tried them on a stock bore or is this an assumption from you or even Patriot that they wont perform as good. lastly as far as durability and longgevity please explain how having a bigger valve than again reccommended will wear the motor down faster.

When the manufacturer even SAID STAGE II HEADS are not for stock bore. usually the mindset is, these people know what they are talking about, what other options out there should be looked into. clearly that is not you. think of how many heads Patriot has tested on stock bore, stroked, and larger CID and sold versus the 2-3 cars your shop guy has worked on. who has the edge here, Patriot and people who have run these heads, or a mechanic...?

the heads are mismatched to the displacement of the stock cubed block, they are overkill. you wont have power/tq down low. it sounds like your shop guy wants you to run the larger heads to bypass flycutting the pistons instead of using heads better suited to match your set-up, which it turn has the ability to increase your power due to having a higher C/R...

does anyone else in here need to keep beating a dead horse. like i said above, your car, your money, so do what you want. im stating your money could be best utilized with components that compliment one another...

**Mr. Luos** · 10-17-2008, 08:11 AM

The larger Stage III valves will distort flow against the cylinder wall.

**Midnight02** · 10-17-2008, 08:36 AM

Another vote for matching components of your combo to maximize performance. Frankly with the setup you'll still likely notice a decent gain from where you are right now, however going with the Stage 3 heads on a stock bore motor will definitely leave a bit of power on the table.

Along the lines of cost....I bought my components myself and had Vengeance do all of the install work and tune.

Heads -- $1200
Cam -- $300
Springs and pushrods -- $200
Ported FAST 92 combo (intake + TB) -- $1300
Install Labor -- $1200
Oil/Gaskets/Bolts/etc -- $150
Tune -- only charged me for dyno time because I already bought an unlimited update package for tuning. -- $150

Total: $4,500 installed, tuned and ready to rock. The additional 90 rwhp and 58 rwtq was well worth it in my opinion.

**5second** · 10-17-2008, 08:45 AM

first of all thanks for the replies and concern I appreciate it. I am gonna try it anyways so when the next knuckle head on here wants to try it. I will be able to say

or

I will let everyone know how it turned out next weekend.

**lemons12** · 10-17-2008, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by 5second

first of all thanks for the replies and concern I appreciate it. I am gonna try it anyways so when the next knuckle head on here wants to try it. I will be able to say

or

I will let everyone know how it turned out next weekend.

more balls than i do... or stupidity.. haha.. either way man, hope it works out for it!! let us know, im interested!

**tbias** · 10-17-2008, 10:21 AM

gm lots 16 labor hrs just to change out the lifters! where im from its 90bucks per hour! thats with 0 parts.

**Ryans99LS1** · 10-17-2008, 10:36 AM

dude were all just trying to help you out.. I could see sticking with these heads if you were planning on using them for now until you get a bigger motor to compliment them. You are still going to see a power gain no matter what. But you will see more of a gain with heads that better suit your motor. Did you already buy these? Cus im sure if you call patriot they would be willing to work something out for you to return or swap them for the stage II's.I just dont see why you feel the need to prove us wrong. Your car though

**5second** · 10-17-2008, 11:27 AM

well im not stupid nor have lots of balls. Just that Patriot doen't say that they tested 208's on a stock bore vs 202's or 5's and there was a definitive loss with the 208's. they just say they dont recommend them on a stock bore. has anyone here tried this or know someone who did and the dyno showed adverse power with the 208's on a stock block. I know the logic and figuring may say diffrent but what does the motor say?

**rc74racer** · 10-17-2008, 12:54 PM

So why even post this thread? If you talked to some local shop guy and he knows more then anyone on this board and the manufacturer of the heads themselves then he can most certainly can give you an accurate quote right? Like people are saying these are not the right heads for you application but it's your money and your car so spend it as you will everyone is just trying to help you get the most bang for your buck. GL with your purchase.

Maybe you should ask your shop guy if he has dyno proof these heads will out perform the others on a stock bore.

**5second** · 10-17-2008, 06:43 PM

I'm posting to see if anybody else has tried this on here. second I never said the shop said they would out perform anything, just that they would work and has worked well before. there is no need for anyone to think im trying to buck them about this; I read the replies and am thankful but will make my decision to go forward with that in mind.