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EGR and AIR

This is a discussion on EGR and AIR within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I am doing mine tomorrow, that the bump stop, free port and polish on the TB, and I plan on ...

  1. #21
    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    Mystic Teal
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    I am doing mine tomorrow, that the bump stop, free port and polish on the TB, and I plan on cleaning out the MAF really good since it has never been done on my car and it has 105,000 miles on it now. Hopefully I see some gains. I replaced my fuel filter and cleaned my airfilter and gained 2 tenths already so hopefully I can see even more improvements just from cleaning things up a bit.

  2. #22
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    You guys will dig up stuff from 4 months ago just to have something to argue about? wow--No-I'm not scared -not 4 months ago or now-- These systems are there for a reason. Yes they were put there to reduce emissions, and then the rest of the engine management was designed around these systems being there. Can they be eliminated? Yes, if you change things around to accomodate those changes. Can you also change your car around into a maintenance nightmare that gives you alot of headaches and PITA type stuff. You better believe it. Does any of these EGR or AIR injection systems operate at full throttle-NO. Do they then hurt performance-NO. My only point here is at least understand what you are doing before you do it. Give good advice fully explaining what needs to be modified about the fuel and timing curves when eliminating the EGR for example-and that will be helpful. Not just something about being a man and ripping stuff out from under the hood.:firedevil

  3. #23
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    Oh Yeah ... and make sure you pull the two fuses before you remove these devices.

  4. #24
    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    Mystic Teal
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    LOL I think I got under his skin a lil bit.. Yeah I will be sure to do that..

  5. #25
    Member DaddySS's Avatar
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    You won't see any gains, it does clean up the engine compartment but you need it for CT emissions, it saves you a few pounds, but you'll throw codes, need a tune to fix it, etc. So it's easy - do you want to remove it and put it back for the advantages mentioned or leave it alone?

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    I have the rear O2 sensors turned off in my tune is this what you have to do to stop throwing this code?

  7. #27
    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    Mystic Teal
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaddySS
    You won't see any gains, it does clean up the engine compartment but you need it for CT emissions, it saves you a few pounds, but you'll throw codes, need a tune to fix it, etc. So it's easy - do you want to remove it and put it back for the advantages mentioned or leave it alone?
    With the gains I was talking about with the bumpstop mod and the port and polish on the TB as well as cleaning up the MAF. With the EGR and AIR mod I am just looking for a starting point to clean up the engine bay. Seems to me it will still look sloppy since some of the wires look like I willl be unable to reroute them but its worth a shot.

  8. #28
    Long Drive
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    I've done just about every mod you can do short of headers, etc. Messing with the emission systems seems counterproductive from both a mechanical and environmental standpoint.

    In a post last week, I included pix of my driver side engine bay with both the air hose and the hood release cable moved if you are interested in cleaning things up a bit. The air hose tucks down between the engine and the wheel hump after clipping about 8" of at the splicing point. See "Wire Mod".

  9. #29
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    Just disconnect one of the A.I.R. pump hoses and see how long you can hold your hand to the hot air being recirculated back thru your motor. Also look at the obstruction of the long EGR tube right in the middle of your primary airflow into your intake. Add up the weight ... that stuff is heavy. And take a look at what a bitch it is to always have to remove the EGR stff from the engine bay everytime you want to get to your valve covers, coild packs, intake removeal, header chnages and a lot of other stuff you probably will be doing to your car.

    If you plan to continue to mod, get rid of it. If you just want to complete your bolt-ons, at least get rid of it long enough to get them done. I put mine on and took it back off probably 8-9 times ... just trying to tell the difference. Finally, I took it off permanently and I'm glad I did, but, mine's a racebuilt street-n-strip car. It's a matter of personal choice and where you want to go with your car.

  10. #30
    We'll be back... GatorSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02z28ls1
    ... The EGR is reducing peak combustion pressure as previously stated it reduces the tendency to knock also with the obvious performance gains from that (but again nothing is there at full throttle so moot point). If the engine is designed with these systems intended to be there unless you are intending on changing everything about that engine you are better off leaving it as designed. In other words if you have to ask the question you don't know enough about it to change it. realizing I'm being controversial here-but I've been doing this for a while so why stop now.
    Combustion pressure is the power that pushes the piston down. Obviously, reducing this pressure reduces power, which is why these systems are disabled at full throttle. The EGR is purely for the emissions BS.

  11. #31
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    ... amen brother

  12. #32
    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    LOL I cant believe someone could say its counterproductive to remove it?? ITS NOT EVEN USED AT WOT!!

  13. #33
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    And what people are trying to tell you is you are clueless as to what is going on under the hood of your car.
    #1-Guy says the hot exhaust is going back into the engine through the AIR system. There is a check valve that prevents any of that from happening (if it's working properly). Air is pumped into the exhaust system (never the other way around)to help burn the unburned gas that isn't burned in the motor. It actually lights it on fire in the exhaust,which helps the catalytic convertor do it's job in a couple of different ways. It "lights off" the convertor by heating it up, and helps it last longer by not having it get overloaded with unburnt fuel. The catalyst converts the exhaust into less harmful substances purely by a chemical reaction as the exhaust passes over it. Neither one of these systems impacts performance in the stock motor in as large a way as people (who don't understand what's going on)think it does. The AIR pump takes electrical power to run, usually at start-up, (and not a lot of other times) so what horsepower does this take? Not alot. You can get more performance increase by going on a diet and losing some fat outa your head . It can significantly reduce emissions all by itself-with or without a convertor to worry about. Leave it there if it's not too big a deal for you-it's not harming anything,and it helps alot of things. Your drag racers will not need it because it doesn't help performance any, and is added dead weight, but it is NOT harming performance significantly either.
    #2the guy that believes peak combustion pressures are a good thing. You are clueless and it would take way too much writing to explain all these things to you. What the EGR controls are the too high combustion pressures that are generated at times in an engine, that produce NOx emissions, and detonation. Again- it doesn't operate at WOT so it doesn't have an effect on performance, and it has a beneficial effect of cleaner emissions,longer engine life (less detonation). It's actually beneficial to the engine in ways that I'm not going to be able to explain to someone that has no clue about what is going on under the hood. Yes they managed to remove it in the later model LS-1, but I'll be willing to bet that they acheived this through a difference in the fuel and ignition curves-if you can find somebody that can reflash your computer (and knows enough about this to understand what I'm talking about) you can remove the EGR and put on a LS6 intake manifold and get a performance increase (better manifold design).
    #3-(I'm losing count here) juiced99ws6 (that is not on nitrous? juiced?) you are beyond clueless about what the guy is saying. If the only thing that you are concerned about is WOT then none of these systems impacts the performance at WOT. It's the 99 percent of time that you are driving (and that would be NOT at WOT) that these systems operate. And trust me about one thing here--you do not show an understanding of these systems, do not even pretend that you do.
    I can already predict the response from the uneducated people on this thread-so go ahead and make bigger fools of yourselves-you won't be impressing me. I realize there are people out there that have changed their engines significantly and cannot run the emissions controls without redesigning them (which is beyond the reach of anyone except the OEM). Also people who are intending on running for all out performance have different priorities than the average guy cruising the streets, also car show types are concerned about looks only so that's a different deal. Kind of like the girl who spends hours getting a tan, only to wind up ugly and wrinkled in a few years from the sun, some people can see the long range implications of what's going on, and some people are only concerned with the short term benefits. And some people are totally ignorant of what they are doing until it's too late. It's your car-you make the choice.
    I want to congratulate anyone that actually reads all of this-and for the record-this doesn't get under my skin-it's just frustrating trying to explain things to people. If you read this thread carefully you will see others trying to explain the same things I am here. I'm betting we all give up after this.

  14. #34
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    I would only ask one question. If it's such a good system, why did GM decide it was not necessary ... for all the reasons mentioned above? The catalytic convertors apparently don't need the 'light-off'. And re-burning hot exhaust gasses really apparently was not necessary. What 'you'll bet' (was what GM did to make up for the difference of the old environment versus the new environment) just shows that you aren't very educated to state all the supposed facts, then, you end up theorizing and trying to push your personal opinions off on this guy with no legitimate facts. Now, that's uneducated. Your post was obviously to try and belittle everyone posting here who doesn't agree with you and to prove your point ... to be the educated authority on the subject matter. And where did you get this super understanding? Yeah, like the rest of us, you ready it somewhere ... smells of JPR's write-up on LS1Tech.

    Not just on the F-body's, but, on most every vehicle they made with the LS1 motor? Why did GM do away with all that worthless garbage? Why do they not put it on most vehicles anymore? Sorry, that's two questions, but, I'm just a degree'd, certified and uneducated Network Engineer with certified Cisco, Microsoft, and Netware credentials.

    Please educate me.

    'I'll be willing to bet that they acheived this through a difference in the fuel and ignition curves'
    To the dude who posted intitially ... get rid of that nasty shit and go have your 'fuel and ignition curves reset' ... LOL! Dump that junk unless you're trying to stay C.A.R.B. legal.
    Last edited by JEB99TA; 05-30-2006 at 11:18 AM.

  15. #35
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    Ok-that's such a jumbled incoherent response I don't think I can even clear it up for you. Your level of education on computers is impressive-but that has nothing to do with automotive engineering. And I believe you are confusing EGR and AIR injection systems as being the same thing and for the same reason. They are not, and they are emissions control systems (I guess that's what you mean by "environment old and new"?). I apologize for my perceived rudeness, but honestly reread your post-is that being polite? Catalytic convertors can be placed closer to the engine and get by without an air injection to light them off, I believe the stock Corvette set-up does this. It's all engineered out in the design testing phase of the car. Depending on variables too numerous to mention, vehicles have always been able to get by without air injection on some models,and the Quad 4 engine was the first to do away with the EGR valve in modern era engines back in the 80's(it has a passage that introduces exhaust at all times into the intake manifold). I've never read the write up or visited LS1tech's website so I can't address that. Sounds like he was trying to educate the uneducated and you still didn't get it. Where did I get this "super understanding"? Not in computer college that's for sure. I went to and graduated from an automotive tech school after graduating high school. One of the first jobs I got was at an EPA funded emissions control testing laboratory, one of several that were located across the country to try to verify that the OEM emissions control systems were actually still working on actual vehicles in the real world. They tested one of every make and model (and variations of every model) that was commonly available at the time in the United States. If a car failed the dyno run then it was my job to try to diagnose and fix whatever was wrong with the emissions systems until it passed. And there were alot of failures. This was back in the early 80's-Reagan took office and like the good Republican he was-EPA funding dried up. To make a long story short I have spent the last 25 years in the commercial garages working on cars for a living. As the years have went by I have received some training on engine control systems but it's not my speciality anymore, I'm mainly undercar now. So forgive me if I'm not able to discuss the latest emissions control systems, but the basics of this stuff remain the same. Air injection sytems first hit the scene in the late 60's in the California sold vehicles, EGR systems came along in the mid 70's in response to the necessity of running the engines leaner and cleaner. It's nothing new to the auto industry. I recently switched jobs to a company that intensively trains their employees on a regular basis (monthly) and hope to be getting more education on the subject and will be able to give more indepth information on the subject. But I gotta tell ya-I'm not sure anybody here would understand it anyway. Take it as an insult if you want-I'm not insulted that someone understands everything else in the world as well as I understand things automotive. If everybody could repair cars I'd be out of a job. And -we are very busy at my shop. I'm just trying to put some facts out there in case anybody really wants to understand what's going on, I realize it will be lost on some people. Let me end with your ending-LOL

  16. #36
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    Sorry ... too much to read man. Too much automotive engineering ... throwing in the towel due to lack of interest. My EGR/AIR system's gone and I just literally blew away a very expensive Carrera with all that garbage on it. Of course, mine's only ''nearly' stock ... and chipped ...

    .... in all sincerity, I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that, however, the guy didn't ask for an emissions control engineering 101 course. He simply seemed to be indicating he needed to understand, in simple English, the function of exactly what these two systems do and he asked about taking the stuff off and would it be beneficial. Take it as rudeness if you must, however, I'm not trying to be rude. LOL!

    Could someone explain to exactly what EGR and AIR do? What kind of gains could i get if i dont have these? Is it difficult/worth it? Would i have to put it back on for emissions in CT? Thanks guys.
    Last edited by JEB99TA; 05-30-2006 at 04:38 PM.

  17. #37
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    I'm not offended or I wouldn't have answered at all-I'm much worse when I'm actually upset. Sorry if i got longwinded -but you were questioning everything that was talked about and even where I got my experience. I could have taken the easy way out and disappeared.
    Do what you want to your car -that's what hot rods are all about. But I will only respect the opinions of those that know what they are doing-not people that are ripping stuff off their car just because.
    And for the record-the guy asked what do these systems do and could he remove them where he lives. Simple answer again-leave it there. The simple answer was good enough for him 4 months ago.

    And yeah-the F-body has more horsepower than the Porsche stock for stock, be proud of blowin him away-but you would have had him with your emissions control stuff in place-that's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. You have still missed the point entirely.

  18. #38
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    ... agreed. Now, take that worthless stuff off.

  19. #39
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    You are agreeing that you have no clue what you are talking about? Now we are getting somewhere!

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    Of course ... agreeing that I know nothing about anything ... Now, take that worthless shit off!

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