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E-85 flex fuel who using it????

This is a discussion on E-85 flex fuel who using it???? within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by ericwilloughby 6. Isn't ethanol bad for certain fuel system components in fuel pumps and carbuerators? No. Todays ...

  1. #21
    Got Rice? Liquifire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
    6. Isn't ethanol bad for certain fuel system components in fuel pumps and carbuerators?

    No. Todays cars are built to be compatible with ethanol-blended fuels. When ethanol was first introduced in the 1980s, some cars experienced deterioration of some elastomers (rubber-like parts) and metal fuel system components. Very quickly, manufacturers upgraded their fuel systems so that today, they are now all compatible with ethanol fuels.
    Then why does my car(02 Impala) and everyone else I know get worse power, responsiveness, and MPG when running gasoline with ethanol in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquifire
    Then why does my car(02 Impala) and everyone else I know get worse power, responsiveness, and MPG when running gasoline with ethanol in it?
    I've read somewhere the gas with ethanol is not as potent as straight gasoline so that might explain it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquifire
    Then why does my car(02 Impala) and everyone else I know get worse power, responsiveness, and MPG when running gasoline with ethanol in it?
    What are you refering to, all gas is blended with alcohol. On top of that listen to how stupid that sounds. That is like saying your car is more powerful with 87 octane. Pure 200 proof ethanol is 115 octane. Are you honestly trying to tell me your car runs worse with higher octane fuel ?

    If that's what you think first you must step into the 21st century to realize why.
    Everything with cars these days are computer controlled and the stoichiometric combustion of alcohol is lower. It requires more fuel since the hydrocarbon chain is smaller, meaning 14.7:1 of gas means everything is utilized but you need like 10:1 for alcohol. The alcohol has a chain of oxygen on it and it is more powerful so even though it looks like you would need 50% more fuel you only need about 15% more fuel and you can make a lot more power. Now with the computer, car manufacturers know that since it is higher octane they can spray less fuel while still supressing knock, lower emissions, and gain fuel economy.

    Regular fuel
    Bosch state (sic) that most spark ignition engines develop their maximum power at air/fuel ratios of 12.5:1 - 14:1, maximum fuel economy at 16.2:1 - 17.6:1, and good load transitions from about 11:1 - 12.5:1. However, in practical applications, engine air/fuel ratios at maximum power are often richer than the quoted 12.5:1, especially in forced induction engines where the excess fuel is used to cool combustion and so prevent detonation.
    Source: http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_1595/article.html

    Since ethanol is even higher octane you can lean it out more, by doing this you can achieve better fuel economy. To achieve even better fuel economy you can spray less fuel and retard timing a little. Now you have awesome fuel economy, excellent emissions, cheap long lasting gas, but all at the expense of power. This is why cars using E-85 might feel like they have less power than gas. A car tuned for ethanol though will have more power than one tuned for gas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaztyZ28
    I've read somewhere the gas with ethanol is not as potent as straight gasoline so that might explain it
    His car could run worse the more ethanol. If the car is not a flex fuel car it probably can't adjust timing accordingly.

    I.E. I was trying to start a bon fire. All my gas cans have 93 octane in them. I ran out of 93 and had to use premixed 2 cycle. Used same amount of gas I always do. When I light the fire there is usually a small whooose so I always turn my head as I through the match. Good thing bacause that 2 cycle mix, having MUCH lower octane, went off like a bomb. The fire ball went past my body and all my neighbors came out wondering what the hell happened because there windows ratlled.

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    You may already know that octane has nothing to do with the amount of power, BTU's, in gas. The higher the octane the more resistant to burning. If you dont have the heat or the timing I could easily see how it would run worse on higher octane.

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    I thought alcohol burned best at 7 to 1. I'm almost sure of this. Alcohol is much less powerful than gas. The reason a flex fuel car that make 115 HP on gas makes 118 on alcohol is it burns twice as much fuel to do it.

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    i was just told that GM is creating motors specifically designed for ethanol with a higher compression rate, so im assuming this makes up for the fuel economy?

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    Nope! You'll get a little better than half the mileage and the fuel will cost about half what gas does. But the money stays in the U.S.

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    GM and Ford have made these cars and engines for years for use in Brazil.

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    A\F ratio for alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
    I thought alcohol burned best at 7 to 1. I'm almost sure of this. Alcohol is much less powerful than gas. The reason a flex fuel car that make 115 HP on gas makes 118 on alcohol is it burns twice as much fuel to do it.

    On a K&N site that is selling air fuel ratio gauges.


    http://www.knfilters.com/airfuelmonitors.htm


    ECONOMY BEST ALL-AROUND POWER
    Light 1 Light 2 Light 3 Light 4 Light 5 Light 6 Light 7 Light 8 Light 9 Light 10
    Gasoline 17.1 16.0 15.1 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.0 13.2 12.1
    Alcohol 7.6 7.1 6.7 6.5 6.5 6.5 6.5 6.1 5.8 5.3
    Propane 17.9 16.8 15.9 15.6 15.6 15.6 15.6 15.0 14.0 13.0

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    I just used half and half last night, my wide band reading was about the same,just a little leaner than I like, around 12.6 at full open, its around 12.0 with gas only, but the scanmaster was around 800, the car ran great getting about 7 pounds, and no knock, it a great octane boster, and it sure beats paying 5 dollors a gallon for race fuel.
    Last edited by stage274; 05-08-2006 at 08:53 AM.

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    Wow. That must mean that your PCM is reading the lean condition of the al use and compensating for it. WOW.

    half and half?? what kind and % AL?
    Whats? the scanmaster and 800 what??

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
    Wow. That must mean that your PCM is reading the lean condition of the al use and compensating for it. WOW.

    half and half?? what kind and % AL?
    Whats? the scanmaster and 800 what??
    it was e-85 , and half gas, so it was more like a 60 40 mix, a scan master can read knock and codes, and 800 is the o2 counts, if I did not half the wide band, I would be going off the scanmaster o2 counts, on tuning.

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    sorry if i sound like a , but don't our cars have some sort of reader to differentiate the air/fuel mixture under different octane levels? I remember reading in my manual, "premium is recommended, although you may use regular. with regular unleaded gas, your car may experience a power loss."

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    I know half the answer to this.
    There is no A\F ratio differance in relation to octane. Only type of fuel. AL, diesel, gas, propane. The optimum A\F for gas is 14.7 regardless of octane. As stated 10 posts back: octane has nothing to do with the amount of power, BTU's, in gas. The higher the octane the more resistant to burning.

    The only way I know of that the car is determining what octane you are using is via the knock sensor. A retuner-programmer should answer this further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stage274
    it was e-85 , and half gas, so it was more like a 60 40 mix, a scan master can read knock and codes, and 800 is the o2 counts, if I did not half the wide band, I would be going off the scanmaster o2 counts, on tuning.
    How much was your scanmaster? will it turn of CAGS and what do you mean by counts? The volt reading off the factory O2 sensor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
    I know half the answer to this.
    There is no A\F ratio differance in relation to octane. Only type of fuel. AL, diesel, gas, propane. The optimum A\F for gas is 14.7 regardless of octane. As stated 10 posts back: octane has nothing to do with the amount of power, BTU's, in gas. The higher the octane the more resistant to burning.

    The only way I know of that the car is determining what octane you are using is via the knock sensor. A retuner-programmer should answer this further.
    This is why when you reset the ECU it acts wierd. It assumes it is 87 octane and then slowly advances timing and such until it gets knock then it retards it within the programs limits. It does not even know 87 or 88 or 89 or 100 octane. It knows it's "limits" on minimums and maximums and what to do if it knocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby
    How much was your scanmaster? will it turn of CAGS and what do you mean by counts? The volt reading off the factory O2 sensor?
    its 250$, and it can do a lot of cool things l , but mostly I use its for codes and to watch for knock retard, you can tune with its but its a rough estimate, 850-900 counts is like 12.0 -12.3,at least, it seems that way when I look at the wide band at the same time,do a search on the internet , I cant live with out it, same goes for the wide band,
    Last edited by stage274; 05-08-2006 at 10:04 PM.

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    Hydrogen is not fuel, and never will be. It is an energy carrier, like electricity. You have to make it somehow (and electrolyis of water is the worst way, unless you have loads of surplus electricity, like maybe at a nuclear power plant during off-peak times). Whatever means you use to make it, it takes more energy to produce it than you can get back out of it. The most efficient way to make it right now is from chemically reforming methane. Which has the dreaded carbon in it anyway. Whatever way you make it, it's like carrying water in a leaky bucket. The best you can do is to move the pollution to someone else's back yard, and end up with terrible efficiency along the way. The 'hydrogen economy' is driven by tax dollars, going from you to the well connected politicians and those who play the game, counting on the fact that they don't teach science in high school any more. Anyone wanna buy a few shares in my hydrogen well?

    Alcohol should be called Taxohol. Alcohol is a fuel, unlike hydrogen. That's because at its root, it gets its energy from the sun. But there are a few problems. The sun shines weakly, energy - wise. So it takes a lot of acres and a lot of time to get enough bio stuff to make very much alcohol. And it takes a bunch of energy to farm the stuff. A bunch more energy for fertilizer. A bunch more energy to brew the soup. And a tremendous amount of energy to distill it. By the time you get done with an honest accounting of the energy, land use, time, and labor it takes to make the stuff, it is dismal on energy return and cost. The only way the propaganda shows like that special on Brazil can tout the benefits of alcohol as a fuel is if they count on the fact that nobody is going to bother to add up all the costs. Ethanol is being promoted with gigantic subsidies of tax dollars in the U.S. With current practices, if you add it all up, it is taking about 7 times as much energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get back by burning it.

    The short version is, if there were some magical way to get energy that is cheaper and cleaner, there would be a bunch of people lining up to make their millions on it. Unfortunately, oil comes out of the ground almost free, takes very little conversion to make it very portable and pretty clean, and it carries a tremendous amount of energy in the products gotten from it. Give up any of those advantages and you have to make it back up somewhere else. There is no free lunch when it comes to energy and thermodynamics, unless you own an oil well or a gas well.

    Be aware that your energy consumption has a one to one relationship to your standard of living. If the cost of energy goes up, your standard of living goes down. It takes energy to make any and everything, so increased cost of energy raises the cost of all goods you might want to buy. And if you get restricted in the amount of energy you can buy, then your standard of living will be drastically reduced. The history of the advance of man is a history of more concentrated, safer, and above all less expensive energy, and devices to use that energy. Our econcomy depends on it, and your livelihood depends on it. Your very life depends on it, at least the first ten percent of what you use.

    How many people with normal jobs in Brazil can afford to drive a Camaro SS? What is the standard of living there? How does interference in the economy by the government affect the prices charged for their ethanol? Are there high taxes on other sectors of the economy being used to put huge subsidies to help out their ethanol program? Are the ethanol plants and the farms privately owned? Do the farm laborers have cars too? If the crop isn't subsidized, can the farmers make as much per acre growing sugar cane for ethanol as they could growing any other crop for human consumption?

    The problem the greenies have with oil is that it gives the vulgar peasants access to a much higher standard of living than they think they should have, and it makes way too many millionaires, building cars and other products for them. They look with envy at Europe, where the socialist governments tax energy so high that people ride bicycles to work, and build cities to exclude cars. Just remember that their aim and their strategy is deprivation of energy to the common man. They especially hate the idea of kids having 400 horsepower cars.

    The way they hope to rule us is to get the ignorant masses to believe a pack of lies about global warming. This will give them the excuse for energy rationing = deprivation. Of course, this megalomaniacal scheme will probably never come to full fruition. But along the way, there are huge amounts of money to be skimmed off the gullible taxpayers, with corporations and scientists lining up to tell the Big Lies to get government handouts for research, propaganda, and subsidies. Whoever doesn't repeat the lie will be left out in the cold. The fashionable ones will be made rich off tax dollars. Of course, business as usual will continue, but it will be punitively taxed and roundly denounced. Third world nations will jump on the bandwagon; they love any excuse to keep the masses under their thumb. A people with a miserable standard of living and no access to energy lacks the time and surpluses to resist when they are living hand to mouth. A most excellent scheme to perpetuate their power structure.

    Anyone who likes their muscle cars should educate themselves about the physics of energy so that they can expose the lies and hopefully work to defend the freedom and economy that makes muscle cars available to people that want them. Otherwise, the argument will be about whether you need them. And the answer will be given by somebody else.

    --NinerSevenTango--

    End Of Rant, Thanks for listening.
    Last edited by NinerSevenTango; 05-09-2006 at 04:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NinerSevenTango
    Hydrogen is not fuel, and never will be. It is an energy carrier, like electricity. You have to make it somehow (and electrolyis of water is the worst way, unless you have loads of surplus electricity, like maybe at a nuclear power plant during off-peak times). Whatever means you use to make it, it takes more energy to produce it than you can get back out of it. The most efficient way to make it right now is from chemically reforming methane. Which has the dreaded carbon in it anyway. Whatever way you make it, it's like carrying water in a leaky bucket. The best you can do is to move the pollution to someone else's back yard, and end up with terrible efficiency along the way. The 'hydrogen economy' is driven by tax dollars, going from you to the well connected politicians and those who play the game, counting on the fact that they don't teach science in high school any more. Anyone wanna buy a few shares in my hydrogen well?

    Alcohol should be called Taxohol. Alcohol is a fuel, unlike hydrogen. That's because at its root, it gets its energy from the sun. But there are a few problems. The sun shines weakly, energy - wise. So it takes a lot of acres and a lot of time to get enough bio stuff to make very much alcohol. And it takes a bunch of energy to farm the stuff. A bunch more energy for fertilizer. A bunch more energy to brew the soup. And a tremendous amount of energy to distill it. By the time you get done with an honest accounting of the energy, land use, time, and labor it takes to make the stuff, it is dismal on energy return and cost. The only way the propaganda shows like that special on Brazil can tout the benefits of alcohol as a fuel is if they count on the fact that nobody is going to bother to add up all the costs. Ethanol is being promoted with gigantic subsidies of tax dollars in the U.S. With current practices, if you add it all up, it is taking about 7 times as much energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get back by burning it.

    The short version is, if there were some magical way to get energy that is cheaper and cleaner, there would be a bunch of people lining up to make their millions on it. Unfortunately, oil comes out of the ground almost free, takes very little conversion to make it very portable and pretty clean, and it carries a tremendous amount of energy in the products gotten from it. Give up any of those advantages and you have to make it back up somewhere else. There is no free lunch when it comes to energy and thermodynamics, unless you own an oil well or a gas well.

    Be aware that your energy consumption has a one to one relationship to your standard of living. If the cost of energy goes up, your standard of living goes down. It takes energy to make any and everything, so increased cost of energy raises the cost of all goods you might want to buy. And if you get restricted in the amount of energy you can buy, then your standard of living will be drastically reduced. The history of the advance of man is a history of more concentrated, safer, and above all less expensive energy, and devices to use that energy. Our econcomy depends on it, and your livelihood depends on it. Your very life depends on it, at least the first ten percent of what you use.

    How many people with normal jobs in Brazil can afford to drive a Camaro SS? What is the standard of living there? How does interference in the economy by the government affect the prices charged for their ethanol? Are there high taxes on other sectors of the economy being used to put huge subsidies to help out their ethanol program? Are the ethanol plants and the farms privately owned? Do the farm laborers have cars too? If the crop isn't subsidized, can the farmers make as much per acre growing sugar cane for ethanol as they could growing any other crop for human consumption?

    The problem the greenies have with oil is that it gives the vulgar peasants access to a much higher standard of living than they think they should have, and it makes way too many millionaires, building cars and other products for them. They look with envy at Europe, where the socialist governments tax energy so high that people ride bicycles to work, and build cities to exclude cars. Just remember that their aim and their strategy is deprivation of energy to the common man. They especially hate the idea of kids having 400 horsepower cars.

    The way they hope to rule us is to get the ignorant masses to believe a pack of lies about global warming. This will give them the excuse for energy rationing = deprivation. Of course, this megalomaniacal scheme will probably never come to full fruition. But along the way, there are huge amounts of money to be skimmed off the gullible taxpayers, with corporations and scientists lining up to tell the Big Lies to get government handouts for research, propaganda, and subsidies. Whoever doesn't repeat the lie will be left out in the cold. The fashionable ones will be made rich off tax dollars. Of course, business as usual will continue, but it will be punitively taxed and roundly denounced. Third world nations will jump on the bandwagon; they love any excuse to keep the masses under their thumb. A people with a miserable standard of living and no access to energy lacks the time and surpluses to resist when they are living hand to mouth. A most excellent scheme to perpetuate their power structure.

    Anyone who likes their muscle cars should educate themselves about the physics of energy so that they can expose the lies and hopefully work to defend the freedom and economy that makes muscle cars available to people that want them. Otherwise, the argument will be about whether you need them. And the answer will be given by somebody else.

    --NinerSevenTango--

    End Of Rant, Thanks for listening.
    well said, I am an engineer , I do understand the nature of the beast, but they should not be monopoly on gas, I realize it take energy to create energy, but they should be a choice at the pump, your choice of aclohol or gas or even a propane to fill up, that way it would keep all the prices at an eqaulibriam, if gas goes up, use alcohol, the car of the future should be able to run a lot of diffrent type of fuels , even coal, if thier is a world crissis , brazil would still be driven around, and all that money stays thier, and is spent thier, IE it would help the economy if we start producing lots of alcohol that is is produced here, that way it take some of the pressure off and we would not be subject to what happened in the early 70s,that way we have a choice, and the countrie will still keep moving and producing, thats the way I see it,plus my turbo or supercharge car runs cool, and is less prone to detonation.

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