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Another oil question!!!

This is a discussion on Another oil question!!! within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Just picked up a 2000 black trans am a couple days ago, I traded in a 2000 corvette for the ...

  1. #1
    Member Rob00Taws6's Avatar
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    black
    2000 pontiac trans am

    Another oil question!!!

    Just picked up a 2000 black trans am a couple days ago, I traded in a 2000 corvette for the trans am, (most of my friends think I'm nuts for doing so). I want to change all my fluids in my car. Already did my T56 with Mobil 1 dex III atf. Now for the ever popular piston slap issue! My corvette, I think made the piston slap noise, but everyone says that it subsides as the engine warms up. Corvette didn’t even after running amsoil 5w-30, so I'm starting to think that the noise was something else, the only reason why I bring up the corvette is that my trans am that I just picked up has the same noise, and it will not subside as the car warms, that’s why I think its something else. Honestly I'm not expecting the noise to stop if its piston slap, I just want it to subside a little, and maybe the correct weight oil will do just that. I thought about amsoil series 2000 0w-30 but I think that too light, good oil but I don’t feel confident that it will quiet the noise. Now I'm considering Royal Purple xpr 10w-40. Stuffs expensive, I would like to see if any one out there has had success with it before I buy it. I'm sure that I want to put either amsoil, royal purple, or redline in my new car, but I'm unsure of the weight to use? Heaver or lighter. And, if its not piston slap i have a few ideas on what the noise might be, im open to suggestions.

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    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    RP 10-40 will shear to a 30 weight in 500 miles...so you'll have a 30 weight...
    Piston slap is of course ( as you already know I see) caused by the piston skirts being so short they allow the piston to "rock" in the cylinder thus "slapping" the wall of the cylinder....To minimize you are after a thicker film strength not a thicker viscosity.....RedLine of course has the thickest film strength...but suck for detergency in a street driven beast....Pennzoil Platinum has excellent characteristics...so you get the best of both world....Amsoil 10-30( thicker film than the Amsoil 5-30) is also excellent....I'd go the PP 10-30 route....an often overlooked contributer of engine "noise" in our LSX motors is the oil filter....AC Delco/Purolator's have very good flow.....KN is also just as good but for double the price....I don't like Mobil1 filters....restrictive IMHO.....what mods does the Fbody have?
    This is my signature. It is mine. Nobody else has one like it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member SeVeReDiStOrTiOn's Avatar
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    Does the noise increase and decrease with rpm? Being that it's a M6 a prior owner could have misshifted and bent a pushrod....could be a lifter...and could just be some valve noise. And sarge is the oil master so his advice is golden..

  4. #4
    Member Rob00Taws6's Avatar
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    black
    2000 pontiac trans am

    So far modification wise I see dynatech headers full length, hi flows cats, and y pipe, corsa exhaust, and a granatelli mass air flow sensor. I bought the car from a small dealer and they were not much help in telling me what the car had and didn't have, but I'm enjoying finding parts that I don’t have to buy. As far as the lifters and push rods, I original though it was them, but the noise disappears with any blip of the throttle or just a slightly higher rpm, but its a thought I'm am going to change the rocker arms, springs, retainers, and push rods out with a set of crane cams quick lift package regardless. Who knows though the luck I'm having they might already be there, that would be something else. Another thought when I had my corvette, my first oil change I used 5w-30 pennzoil platinum, and the noise was tolerable, I know it was there but never was loud enough to bother me. It was not till I changed to amsoil 5w-30 that the noise started bothering me. I like the Pennzoil platinum 10w-30 and high flowing filter idea, there was a point in time that I always used only Pennzoil, going back will not be difficult at all I trust the stuff. I'm also going to check my headers, could very well be an exhaust leak too.

  5. #5
    Bomb Technician Krazy351w's Avatar
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    hunter Green
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    Pennzoil.......

  6. #6
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy351w View Post
    Pennzoil.......
    Explain

  7. #7
    old timer blue02Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Explain
    hes prolly talkin about conventional pennzoil

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    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Maybe....but Pennzoil conventional is a great oil....what is he talking about?

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    Bomb Technician Krazy351w's Avatar
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    hunter Green
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    pennzoil causes the worst sludge build up ive ever seen. nuff said

  10. #10
    Member Rob00Taws6's Avatar
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    black
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    Iíve use Pennzoil conventional religiously in my 86 z28. The thing was a mess when I bought it, the body was straight, but the car just about ran. But, thatís what happens when the previous owner never understood about the concept of changing oil. And the car had its fair share of miles 180,000. But I changed to oil a lot, I had this crazy ex girlfriend and she drove me nuts, every time she pissed me off I go change the oil in the car. After a couple years I tore the intake manifold off and valve covers and the engine was clean. I sold the car with 210,000 miles, and I ran better then when I bought it, of course I did other things to it but that car, but I was impressed on how clean it was.
    Well on to the new trans am, I put Pennzoil platinum 10-30 in the car. Same noise no different. I understand that these cars make noise, and I know that its not going to hurt the performance or longevity of the engine, but what I donít understand is that this is a initial start up problem and it should go away as the car warms, mine doesnít its consistent, but so was my corvette. The two cars were the same years 2000, and about the same amount of miles and the noise is identical. The worst thing I am worried about is if the noise triggering the knock sensor and kicking back my timing. Honestly I love the car, I use to have an 89 GTA the car had 51,000 original miles and it was as straight as an arrow. I even built a Ligenfelter L98 for the car and it was just unbelievable. Long story short some idiot in New Haven ran a stop light and totaled my car. With this new trans am I feel like I am passing on the torch.
    Last edited by Rob00Taws6; 06-04-2007 at 08:41 PM.

  11. #11
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy351w View Post
    pennzoil causes the worst sludge build up ive ever seen. nuff said
    Bullshit son you are clueless what your talking about. Oil doesn't cause sludge. Oxidation causes sludge. Bad PCV valve/coolant leaks etc. cause sludge...not oil....your just regurgitating Internet rumors that are totally void of any facts that Pennzoil causes sludge due a parrifin wax base....which is an old wifes tale.....you wanna debate/discuss and both of us can/will provide real data on this? I'm ready.

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    old timer blue02Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Bullshit son you are clueless what your talking about. Oil doesn't cause sludge. Oxidation causes sludge. Bad PCV valve/coolant leaks etc. cause sludge...not oil....your just regurgitating Internet rumors that are totally void of any facts that Pennzoil causes sludge due a parrifin wax base....which is an old wifes tale.....you wanna debate/discuss and both of us can/will provide real data on this? I'm ready.



    i have to say, i was under the impression that P.C. caused build up due to the parrifin in it

  13. #13
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Sources...lots of places
    Myth #1
    Paraffinic oils cause engine sludge.
    Oils from paraffin-based crude are loaded with wax and create engine sludge.
    Paraffin base stocks cause sludge.
    "x" Brand of motor oil causes sludge, varnish and/or engine deposits.
    “Paraffinic” motor oils cause wax-like deposits on the underside of the oil fill cap.

    Fact
    There are two basic types of crude oil, naphthenic and paraffinic. Most conventional engine lubricating oils today are made from paraffinic crude oil. Paraffinic crude oil is recognized for its ability to resist thinning and thickening with temperature, as well as its lubricating properties and resistance to oxidation (sludge forming tendencies). In the refining process, the paraffinic crude oil is broken down into many different products. One of the products is wax, and others are gasoline, kerosene, lubricating oils, asphalt, etc. Virtually every oil marketer uses paraffinic base stocks in blending its engine oil products.

    Many people believe the term paraffinic to be synonymous with wax. Some have the misconception that paraffinic oils will coat the engine with a wax film that can result in engine deposits. This is not true. The confusion exists because paraffinic molecules can form wax crystals at low temperatures. In lubricating oils, this wax is removed in a refining process called dewaxing. Wax is a premium product obtained from crude oil, and in order to ensure that we produce the highest quality base stocks available, Quaker Stateģ removes the maximum amount of wax possible during the refining process. The end result is a motor oil product formulated with premium lubricating base oil.

    --------------------------------------------------------
    Sludge
    The number one reason for oil changes is to prevent the formation of sludge. It's important to understand how sludge forms and how sludge formation is prevented.
    How Sludge is PreventedAdditive in the detergent oils 'wash' any contaminant particles off of internal engine parts and hold these particles in suspension until the oil is changed. It's important to understand that these particles are too small to cause engine wear, but they do turn the oil a darker color. The key thing is to change the oil before the oil becomes too saturated with contaminants to hold any more, but color is not an indication of this condition.
    How Sludge Forms
    As explained above, modern detergent oils suspend contaminants so they do not settle on engine parts and form sludge. When the oil becomes saturated with contaminant particles new particles settle out of the oil onto the internal engine parts and form sludge. This is why it is so critical to perform oil changes before this level of contamination is reached. The only way to know if you're oil needs changing is to have an oil analysis done. Absent this, play it safe and follow the severe service interval specified in the owners manual. Remember that the contaminants come from the combustion process of the gasoline and and the air. Synthetic oil will not prevent these contaminants. Synthetics may be marginally better at suspending more contaminant particles, but not enough to prolong oil changes by much.

    Never attempt to clean the inside of your engine with one of those engine flush procedures that many shops try to sell. If you've been diligent about oil changes there will be no sludge. If there is a lot of sludge then the last thing you want to do is to dislodge it all at once.
    A good article about sludge can be found at: http://www.yotarepair.com/sludge%20article.html
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Bottom line guys...is no one brand of oil responsible for sludge anymore than another.
    So anybody that sez Brand X causes sludge....or i have seen many post saying " Brand A caused sludge in my engine" are totallty clueless what they are talking about and need to go replce their PCV or fix the coolant leak and change their air filter.....

  14. #14
    Bomb Technician Krazy351w's Avatar
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    hunter Green
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    First off bro i never stated that what i said was fact or fiction. I was merely expressed my opinion. Second as a Moderator i would think you would understand this. Further more as a Moderator you should refrain from cutting people down but using names such as son, or clueless.

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    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Blow me kid....and stop making definitive statements if they are only your opinion and you and I will get along just fine. This is not a democracy so dont try and peddle that "mod's should do this or that crap" around here....

  16. #16
    MSG Crusty SPECOPS94's Avatar
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    Limited Edition #1242
    2002 Camaro SS LE

    From a previously found posting...

    I've had a few questions about this pop up since posting on the old site. So, I'm posting it again here for info.....


    For those of you who use Mobil 1 Synthetic here is something to think
    about the next time you change oil. I got this off of the LS1 board.

    And a little "guide book" and history for those who do not live on
    engineering/chemist forums for "fun"

    All synthetics are not equal. The API has not come out and defined
    what is "synthetic", but rather, classified oils into five major
    groups.

    Group I base oils are the least refined of all of the groups. They
    are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no
    uniformity. While some automotive oils use these stocks, they are
    generally used in less demanding applications.

    Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils. They have
    fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation
    stability, wear prevention and flash/fire points. They have only fair
    performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity.
    Group II base stocks are what the majority of engine oils are made
    from. 3000 mile oil changes are the norm.

    Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of
    all the mineral oil stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they
    offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good
    molecular uniformity and stability. By definition they are considered
    a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic
    and semi-synthetic lubricants. Group III is used in the vast majority
    of full synthetics or synthetic blends. They are superior to group I
    and II oils but still have limitations. Some formulations are
    designed for extended oil changes. Amsoil XM Oils, Castrol Syntec and
    many others fall into this category.

    Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are a chemically engineered
    synthesized basestocks. PAOs offer excellent stability, molecular
    uniformity and performance over a wide range of lubricating
    properties. Amsoil Synthetics and Mobil 1 primarily use group IV
    basestocks. PAO is a much more expensive basestock than the highly
    refined petroleum oil basestock of Group III. (Can you say profit
    margin! Grab your ankles and sing along!)

    Group V base oils are also chemically engineered stocks that do not
    full into any of the categories previously mentioned. Typical
    examples of group V stocks are Esters, polyglycols and silicone.
    Redline uses an ester basestock.

    In the 90s, Mobil filed suit against Castrol for falsely advertising
    Syntec oil as synthetic, when in fact it contained a Group III,
    highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil, instead of a chemically
    synthesized (group IV or V) basestock. Due to the amount that the
    mineral oil had been chemically changed, the judge decided in
    Castrol's favor. As a result, any oil containing this highly
    hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil (currently called Group III
    basestock by the American Petroleum Institute) can be marketed as a
    synthetic oil. Since the original synthetic basestock
    (polyalphaolefin or PAO) is much more expensive than the Group III
    basestock, most of the oil blenders switched to the Group III
    basestock, which significantly increased their profit margins.


    I have kept my big mouth shut for awhile until I could develop some
    decent "proof" of what I suspected. Mobil1 is no longer a 100% Group
    IV Synthetic PAO basestock. This all started post Katrina when Mobil1
    announced it's PAO plant was whacked hard. Virgin Oil Analysis began
    popping up on various boards refelcting Group III basestocks with
    drops of GroupIV PAO's. Pennzoil Platinum did the same thing....went
    to a Group III basestock in November 2005 by the way. And I do watch
    many boards and forums outside of BITOG.....(which has turned into a
    zoo by the way).....I read the corporate reports of Exxon-Mobil and
    Shell.....so I research and get my info from more than the Internet
    and VOA's....
    I wrote a letter to Mobil asking if their basestock was still 100%
    Group IV and got a "canned response" like others word for word by the
    way....
    " Mobil 1 motor oils are 100% synthetic, utilizing the PAO basestock
    and proprietary blend of additives that is tailored specifically for
    each viscosity. Mobil does not discuss specifics about our motor oil
    formulations."

    You want to know why I have an issue with that statement? Because
    Mobil Pre-Katrina always said and advertised they used Group IV
    basestock exclusively. "Utilizing the PAO basestock...." is not the
    same as "Exclusively using the PAO basestock..."......that is a
    change for sure....the other thing that has me convinced Mobil1 is
    now just another synthetic "blend" is they are now advertising they
    utilize "Synthetic Technology"....
    So.....Mobil in their Corporate Report admit to disaster at the plant
    that made the PAO basestock ( which Amsoil buys there by the way).
    VOA's clearly show a reformulation with Group III showing up. Mobil
    has changed the way they "express themselves" now. Mobil1 now sells
    it for like $5-$6 bucks a quart for a Synthetic Blend oil. And that
    is a rip off as they are now just as guilty as those they sued and
    litigated against years ago.
    I remain an advocate that Mobil1 is good oil. However it is very very
    overpriced for what it is now. Lot better oils out there for less
    money for sure.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SSmoky01
    So what oil are you gonna run now Sarge? "Lot better oils out there
    for less money for sure." What oils are you speaking of?
    Well ........
    Full Synthetics
    RedLine / Royal Purple Racing 21 or 41 / Amsoil/ Cosworth
    http://www.focussport.com/liquidcosworth.htm
    Synthetic Blends
    Shaffers http://www.schaefferoil.com/ or Pennzoil Platinum
    Dino
    Castrol GTX or Havoline

    Or Sarges High Performance Soup
    6qts Castrol GTX
    3oz AutoRX http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html
    8ozs Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment
    http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21


    Just in......from a "oil board" and the author is a known chemist
    guru.....

    Okay boys and girls, take a seat cause you aren't going to like this.

    The new M1 EP 5W-30 SM dated Oct 2006 just came out of the G.C. and
    it is MOSTLY mineral oil, presumably Group III. It also contains a
    good slug of AN and some PAO, but little or no ester. Will have more
    data tomorrow.


    And Mobil has changed its spec sheets on the 5-30 EP....
    "PAO + hydroprocessed."
    BY the way GC is Gas Chromatograph....cuts through the sh1t machine

    After all these years of Mobil1 crying about other "Synthetic Blend"
    brands selling as Full Synthetics.....they go and do this.....just
    goes to show you what money and greed will do.


    Originally Posted by Wulfe13
    I've always used Valvoline Full Synthetic.... it is Full synthetic,
    if it says full synthetic, right???
    No...less that 25% is PAO....rest is mineral basestock.....sorry...
    Only true synthetics I know here in the states are
    RedLine/Amsoil/Royal Purple Racing Oils....oh yeah and
    Cosworth.....but don't get all caught up in "what is 100%
    synthetic"......blends and dino's are fine....it is all in the add
    packs....I'm pissed at Mobil1 cuz they are charging a xxxxload for a
    GroupIII product...and are a bunch of hypocrites to boot. $6.00 a
    quart for that xxxx? My xxx!
    Courts said a hydro cracked dino can be called 100% synthetic....that
    is how they get away with that. And FWIW I have 6 qts of Valvoline
    Synpower 10-30 sloshing around in my Dodge R/T right now....good
    oil....got it on sale for $2 bucks a quart

    And Amsoil lil baby xxx aint clean in all this either...I'm still
    pissed at them over their XL lines of oils....The XL line is Group
    III, and Amsoil calls it synthetic. Before that line came out Amsoil
    made a big deal about how Group III isn't really synthetic, blah blah
    blah. But when they introduce their own Group III oil, it's somehow
    now synthetic. Now Amsoil ATM is still 100% synthetic...
    https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx but the XL is Group III
    https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlt.aspx

  17. #17
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    That's me

  18. #18
    Member Rob00Taws6's Avatar
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    black
    2000 pontiac trans am

    question??? how similar is EGR noise, im starthing to think the noise is some thing else on the car.

  19. #19
    Senior Member 02z28ls1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazy351w View Post
    First off bro i never stated that what i said was fact or fiction. I was merely expressed my opinion. Second as a Moderator i would think you would understand this. Further more as a Moderator you should refrain from cutting people down but using names such as son, or clueless.
    If you can't back it up with facts then it's an opinion which he was more than happy to disprove for you. In his opinion you were so far off base with that Pennzoil remark that he was calling you out on it. Take your spanking like a man -son.
    There has been endless rounds of discussion involving motor oils on this forum and there has been a lot of useful info and links to sources of info. Ask a question about motor oil here and you will get a definitive answer I assure you. When I saw that question posed I stepped aside for the inevitable melee. But that's what you want from a forum-good answers-not school yard opinions. I particularly enjoyed the remark.

  20. #20
    MSG Crusty SPECOPS94's Avatar
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    Limited Edition #1242
    2002 Camaro SS LE

    Yep, it was yours Sarge! I kept it because it was some great info! I changed over to RP about two tanks ago and watched my mileage go up by 2 mpg! The car definitely runs much smoother than with the Mobil 1! Thanks for the earlier post!

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