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m6 vs a4

This is a discussion on m6 vs a4 within the Drag Racing forums, part of the Racing Forums category; WAIT WAIT WAIT. . .you wanna mod and beat him. . you dirty cheater you that doesn't settle this BUT, ...

  1. #21
    SUPREME member-oderator oneBADDz's Avatar
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    WAIT WAIT WAIT. . .you wanna mod and beat him. . you dirty cheater you that doesn't settle this
    BUT, you should still do it

  2. #22
    lee1rbc
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    I feel hp has little to nothing to do with the results. I beleive it has to do almost purely with gear ratio. (example)

    If you take two LS1s, an A4 and M6 and lets say for argument they both have 290rwhp (my A4 had 294 stock.) And the A4 has a 3.42 rear and the M6 has a 3.42 rear.
    First gear the M6 has a 2.66:1 multiplied by 3.42= 9.09 total ratio.
    First gear the A4 has a 3.06:1 multiplied by 3.42= 10.46 total ratio.
    ***The auto is in the lead****
    Second gear the M6 has a 1.78:1 multiplied by 3.42= 6.08 total ratio.
    Second gear the A4 has a 1.63:1 multiplied by 3.42= 5.57 total ratio.
    ***All momentum is lost ****
    Third gear the M6 has a 1.30:1 multiplied by 3.42=4.46 total ratio.
    Third gear the A4 has a 1:1 multiplied by 3.42=3.42 total ratio.
    ***The m6 is pulling hard now going as much as 4 miles an hour faster, closing, closing, and.......**** You can fill in the rest.

    While m6s due have a shift disadvantage the A4s downfall is 1st to 2nd. When you go from 3.06:1 to 1.63:1 at 6000rpms you drop to 3,196 rpms. At that rpm my car stock put out 170hp 295ftlbs. While an M6 going from 2.66 to 1.78 at 6000rpms drops to 4,015 rpms, at that rpm my car stock put out 235 rwhp 310ftlbs.

  3. #23
    lee1rbc
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    Also for you M6 guys to think about. You may put out more power at the dyno but that is in 4th gear. At the drag strip you will be in third across the finish line and in 3rd you are putting out about 20 less hp.

  4. #24
    Tech Junkie hammertime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee1rbc
    Also for you M6 guys to think about. You may put out more power at the dyno but that is in 4th gear. At the drag strip you will be in third across the finish line and in 3rd you are putting out about 20 less hp.
    My mph through the traps (107) means I have to pull 4th gear, or I will hit the limiter in third. That means I pretty much clear the traps at about 4800 in 4th gear (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.42=4786)

    An A4, which we all know sucks up a bit more power than an M6, should hit 6000 rpm in 2nd about 87 mph, when it shifts to 3rd (drive). At that point, the revs drop back down below 3700 rpm (calculated, tq converter slippage and slow tachs probably won't show this). From there, it has to accelerate back up to 4500 rpm (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.23=4520), just the peak TQ, not HP, to match what an M6 can do much easier because of the spacing of our ratios.

    Yes, the 3-4 shift at the lights is a slight disadvantage in an M6 car, but I think the benefits of the closer gear spacing outweigh that minor setback. Shifted 3 times from 6000 rpm, our revs fall to 4015, 4382 & 4615.

    An auto has to recover two shifts from 3196 & 3680, with less available HP.

  5. #25
    lee1rbc
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    My mph through the traps (107) means I have to pull 4th gear, or I will hit the limiter in third. That means I pretty much clear the traps at about 4800 in 4th gear (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.42=4786)
    Ouch!!!! I have only owned A4 f-bodies and did not realize that.

    I agree totally that the spacing of gears in an A4 is a disadvantage, but I think with the launch advantage an A4 has along with what you have revealed about the third shift for an M6, it explains why a stock A4 majority of the time beats an M6 at the drag.

  6. #26
    Tech Junkie hammertime's Avatar
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    When I get HP tuners this spring, I'm going to try raising the rev limit just enough to carry me through the traps in 3rd. IMHO it doesn't feel like the car loses anything at the shift. 3rd to 4th is the range where most M6 cars really seems to shine.

  7. #27
    lee1rbc
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    It is true a third to fourth shift can be done the fastest. This January I am looking at switching from 3.42s to 3.73sfor my A4. IMO I think 3.73s for an M6 would be a big boost! Quicker 60ft and you would be doing around 5500rpms across the finish in 4th.

  8. #28
    Tech Junkie hammertime's Avatar
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    Actually, looks like 5500 with 3.73's should be 112, a little fast. For an M6, 4.10's give an even better launch, and still keep the car in the powerband through the top of 4th gear.

  9. #29
    Member tnthub's Avatar
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    After racing points for seven years, finishing second (for the season) three times, and winning twice (for the season), with AVERAGE drivers, the A4 will win every time. The AVERAGE driver simply does not know how to launch or shift.

    Just go to the track on a street night and watch all the folks who think they are the next Ronnie Sox at the starting line and listen to the shifts downtrack you you will see/hear what I mean.

    Now on paper, especially with the 3.42 gears as opposed to the 3.23's, the
    M6 should win. The difference is the AVERAGE driver as specified in the first post.

    Please note my first season win was with a M6 car in 1999... It was also the last time a person with an M6 car won the championship at my local track and the first time it had been won by a stick in many years.
    2002 Street ET Champion New England Dragway
    1999 Street ET Champion Oxford Dragway
    My Blog is here: http://www.downtime.com

  10. #30
    SUPREME member-oderator oneBADDz's Avatar
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    But are the autos stalled, with slicks etc. This never started out as a drag setup question, it was a stock for stock question and people that wanted to prove autos are better took it to track stories with stalls and all that.

  11. #31
    Tech Junkie hammertime's Avatar
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    tnthub is right about the "average driver". We've all seen this scenario:

    Kid spends a ton of money on go-fast parts for his car. Word of mouth, etc spread around how fast that car is. Fact is, the driver doesn't know how to launch on street tires without winding it up and dumping the clutch (hey, it sounds fast), probably misses a shift every third run, and probably can't keep a consistant shift point to save his life. Lucky for him, he's never raced anybody who was a better driver than him or had as much mod money.

    Well, racer kid pulls up to your car at the light and throws you a rev. You never know what you're up against in a street race, so you (on your game) bring the revs up just a bit so you can walk it out of the hole, while racer kids does his best clutch drop ever from 4000 rpm. As he sits and spins, you walk out on him by a couple cars and quickly pull second to open the gap even further. Racer kid now realizes he's losing ground, so he qiuckly shifts to second while still spinning. Now he finally gets traction @ about 2500 rpms in second, as you continue to pull away.

    Being the "average driver" he probably gave up 3/4 of a second on that run.

    So... for the record, A4 wins with an "average driver". Two good drivers in similar cars, one A4 and one M6, the M6 should walk away from it.

  12. #32
    lee1rbc
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    OK! (This is from an A4 guy!) Stock to stock the M6 wins in the 1/4.

    We know there is a bigger learning curve for the M6 and three shifts compared to two by the auto in the 1/4.

    And we know the from all the M6 guys you put out more HP to the wheels.

    The bottom line to me is that going from first to second in an A4 is why it looses. When I shift into second I drop to 3100rpms. To get the same result in a M6 just dont use 2nd gear and go from 1st to 3rd (2900rpms.)

  13. #33
    Senior Member Hurley711's Avatar
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    M6=MORE FUN TO DRIVE!!!!

  14. #34
    Member Capster78's Avatar
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    I dont know why we are comparing stock for stock cars. How many completly stock LS1's do we have here. Anyone not using the advantage of a high stall converter in an A4 is a moron. Almost everyone I know with an A4 that runs at the track runs a stall converter. This is why when you look at just about ever message boards top dog list you will find maybe 1 or 2 M6's in the top 10 but all the rest are A4's. I own an M6 just because I wanted somthing different. That and the offer was to good to pass up. A 98 WS6 completly stock with less than 50k miles is hard to turn away from. Otherwise id be in an Auto right now.

    A4 wins!

  15. #35
    dot COM EVL LS1's Avatar
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    stock for stock i would say a m6 will beat an a4 depending on the driver.

    my last car was a m6 and was converted to an a4 but also 3600 converter, trans cooler, well pretty much everything you can do to a fbody without a forced induction b/c it was mainly a strip car. but stock for stock i'd say m6 would win... few upgrades on an a4 and it'll stomp the m6

  16. #36
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    I race a stock 97 SS camaro M6. The car is tough to launch consistently on street tires. Drag radials make a ton of difference. I have beat all the similar autos that I have run and some have beat me. I am always running down anyone i lose to. After a few runs I don't see the shifting is a real problem but there is always potential for error. Consistency is the key. The reason the autos win a lot is they are much easier to drive. They are easier to launch and easier to shift. You modify an M6 like an auto and it will still be competitive. It can never be as consistent over a season. But on a one time race don't count out the M6.


    97SSM6

  17. #37
    Member tnthub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS02
    I race a stock 97 SS camaro M6. The car is tough to launch consistently on street tires. Drag radials make a ton of difference. I have beat all the similar autos that I have run and some have beat me. I am always running down anyone i lose to. After a few runs I don't see the shifting is a real problem but there is always potential for error. Consistency is the key. The reason the autos win a lot is they are much easier to drive. They are easier to launch and easier to shift. You modify an M6 like an auto and it will still be competitive. It can never be as consistent over a season. But on a one time race don't count out the M6.


    97SSM6
    Actually, in 1999 I went to 14 finals in 22 events with an M6, winning 10 of them.... Don't say "never"... I have yet to be as consistent with the automatic.

  18. #38
    sonnyred
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    Love my m6, shifting makes the day.
    So much fun going through those gears,gives me a thrill.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammertime
    My buddy has an ' 01 SS, nearly identical to mine, except for his A4 vs. my M6. Both cars have lids and cat-back exhausts, nothing more. Results at the track:

    A4 got me by .1 at the 60 foot (2.1 vs. 2.2)
    M6 matched him by 660'

    and at the end of the 1/4
    M6 had him by .2 (13.50 vs. 13.30) and 2 mph (105 vs. 107).

    All supports the arguments:

    1) an auto is (slightly) quicker from a dead stop
    2) a manual has less power lost (compare MPH)
    3) a well driven manual will (generaly) beat an auto in a drag race

    Whast was your 1/8th mile time and mph?

  20. #40
    member toneloc60's Avatar
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    I beat an A4 Formula with my M6 by a couple feet. I had a decent launch, but nothing great. Both of the cars were stock.

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