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Cocky Mach 1 thinks he will beat me

This is a discussion on Cocky Mach 1 thinks he will beat me within the Drag Racing forums, part of the Racing Forums category; Originally Posted by stephen02ws6 ok i figured i would give you guys an update. when speed inc checked the car ...

  1. #61
    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen02ws6 View Post
    ok i figured i would give you guys an update. when speed inc checked the car out on the 3rd, they found that the car wasnt hitting 100%WOT. he said that it would only hit 88% so it wouldnt go into the WOT tables. he adjusted the TB and fixed the setting for it in the computer. he then changed some of the settings for the trans. he raised the shift points from 6000 to 6600 RPMs. the shifts seem harder and it seems to kick down harder.
    6600 seems kinda high ...how does your cam breath up there ? does it have enough to keep the power steady up until 6600???

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    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Usually people set the rev limit to match their cam. Shady is probably right, you probably don't need to rev that high.

    But hopefully this fixed your problem.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    No way to know for sure where the shift points should be without a dyno graph. Generally, you should shift several hundred rpm above peak HP. With an auto though, how loose the converter is makes a big difference, and it may only need to be shifted 500-ish or so rpm above peak.

    Again....no way to know without a dyno graph....unless you do lots and lots of 1/4 mile passes and keep very good records (including track and air conditions).

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    No way to know for sure where the shift points should be without a dyno graph. Generally, you should shift several hundred rpm above peak HP. With an auto though, how loose the converter is makes a big difference, and it may only need to be shifted 500-ish or so rpm above peak.

    Again....no way to know without a dyno graph....unless you do lots and lots of 1/4 mile passes and keep very good records (including track and air conditions).
    Very true. This is completely accurate.
    I was shifting my wifes car at 6400 and it only has a baby 210/218 cam. It loved it. But everything I drive is that way, I have always gotten better results by running the motor above it's HP peak.

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    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Well that's because when you shift you'll still be in your power band right?

    The beauty of a stall is that shift extension though...gotta love that.

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Very true. This is completely accurate.
    I was shifting my wifes car at 6400 and it only has a baby 210/218 cam. It loved it. But everything I drive is that way, I have always gotten better results by running the motor above it's HP peak.
    your correct since the higher you can shift at while not dipping the power after peak..when the shift comes ..it will be deeper in the rpm and in the power and torque(closer to the meat if not in it already) ..however the problem you can run into is if the rpm is held for too long and power drops steeply..then your basically wasting time/rpms ...but yes i have always been told that holding a good breathing cam 400-500 rpm past peak is good

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Well that's because when you shift you'll still be in your power band right?

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    your correct since the higher you can shift at while not dipping the power after peak..when the shift comes
    By definition, power will decrease beyond peak. Similarly, power will be less prior to the peak.

    ..it will be deeper in the rpm and in the power and torque(closer to the meat if not in it already)
    This doesn't make sense to me. Sorry.

    .however the problem you can run into is if the rpm is held for too long and power drops steeply..then your basically wasting time/rpms
    Sure you can shift too late. However, it is far more common that folks shift too early. That is just as big a waste of time (cause you accelerate slower if you are not maximizing HP in each gear) and rpm (cause you dropped too far down in power).

    ...but yes i have always been told that holding a good breathing cam 400-500 rpm past peak is good
    400-500 would like be the minimum, and probably applies to only an auto with a decent converter, or if you are electronically limited in rpm. 800 or more (depending upon tranny gearing and actual HP curve) is more common.

    In the end, it is simple math. The idea is to maximize HP in each gear. In order to do that, you have to run the engine beyond the HP peak, because when it shifts, it will go down well below the peak. How far above peak HP depends on the shape of the curve, the transmission gearing, and if an auto, how much slip the converter has.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Well that's because when you shift you'll still be in your power band right?

    The beauty of a stall is that shift extension though...gotta love that.
    The beauty of a looser converter (commonly called "stall") is that it allows the motor to get into its powerband quicker, and it will hold a narrower rpm range, allowing the motor to stay closer to its peak HP in each gear.

    Disadvantages are heat and loss of efficiency.

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    By definition, power will decrease beyond peak. Similarly, power will be less prior to the peak.



    This doesn't make sense to me. Sorry.



    Sure you can shift too late. However, it is far more common that folks shift too early. That is just as big a waste of time (cause you accelerate slower if you are not maximizing HP in each gear) and rpm (cause you dropped too far down in power).



    400-500 would like be the minimum, and probably applies to only an auto with a decent converter, or if you are electronically limited in rpm. 800 or more (depending upon tranny gearing and actual HP curve) is more common.

    well i know power will start to fall past peak by definition..but some will gently decline compared to some that just drop of a cliff it seems


    also what i was trying to say is the same thing you said..the higher you shift from 1 gear to the other..the higher you will be(closer to peak) once you are in that other gear


    and i also agree with you on the shifting early thing

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    the power doesnt drop off much at 6600 rpm. i am still at more power than at 6000 rpm.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    You need a dyno to establish that. 6600 is a pretty high peak for an LS1, and would require an optimum shift point of somewhere north of 7000 rpm.

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    Member stephen02ws6's Avatar
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    i have a dyno sheet. how do you think i know that? and the peak isnt at 6600.

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    Cool. Can you post it, please? Failing that, perhaps break down the HP vs RPM in a post, something like this...

    3000 rpm - xxx HP
    3200 rpm - xxx HP
    3400 rpm - xxx HP
    etc, etc.

    With that, we can get a much better idea of where the shift points should be.

    Thanks.

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    Member stephen02ws6's Avatar
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    ok ill grab the chart out of my car after work and post up the numbers.
    Last edited by stephen02ws6; 06-10-2009 at 09:36 PM.

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    these number are ran through an unlocked converter. why i dont know.
    6000 rpm - 355 horse
    6250 rpm - 360 horse
    6500 rpm - 355 horse
    6600 rpm - 355 horse

  17. #77
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Some converters don't have a lockup clutch capable of holding the car on a dyno, and would risk burning it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen02ws6 View Post
    these number are ran through an unlocked converter. why i dont know.
    6000 rpm - 355 horse
    6250 rpm - 360 horse
    6500 rpm - 355 horse
    6600 rpm - 355 horse
    nice it holds really well after peak...a higher shift point then peak would benefit you

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen02ws6 View Post
    these number are ran through an unlocked converter. why i dont know.
    6000 rpm - 355 horse
    6250 rpm - 360 horse
    6500 rpm - 355 horse
    6600 rpm - 355 horse
    A lot more info is still needed to get a good picture of the powerband, but if that is accurate, then you do indeed need to be shifting at ~7k+ (not smart on a stock longblock).

    It would help a lot to see the dyno. Something smells.

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    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Some converters don't have a lockup clutch capable of holding the car on a dyno, and would risk burning it up.
    Yes, definitely don't lock the converter on a dyno unless it can handle it. I've been told, only lock up a multi-disk converter, your is more than likely a single disk. Don't worry too much about your hp numbers with an auto.

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