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1/4 Mile Help

This is a discussion on 1/4 Mile Help within the Drag Racing forums, part of the Racing Forums category; I have a M6 1998 SS Camaro with a host of mods (small TFcam, TF heads, LTs,LCAs, PH Bar. . ...

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    Question 1/4 Mile Help

    I have a M6 1998 SS Camaro with a host of mods (small TFcam, TF heads, LTs,LCAs, PH Bar. . )
    Conservative Dynapack dyno was 382 HP 375 TQ at the wheels, nice flat torque curve. Happy DynoJet was 409 HP and 402 TQ.

    Took the car to the track last week on street tires and was a little dissapointed but know my driving was terrible.
    Two runs:
    12.92 @ 111.x mph 2.1 60'
    12.97 @ 110.x mph 2.2 60'
    If I recall correctly I think the 1/8 was in the low 90 MPH range at around 8.x seconds.

    My launches were terrible, one time spun, one time took off like a mom in a mini van pulling out of the grocery store parking lot.

    I spun shifing into 2nd and had to hit 4th just before the 1/4 mile marker. No missed gears but also granny shifting for the most part.

    In your opinion or based on F Body experiance what should this car run?

    How much difference can an improved launch make?

    How hard can I launch without busting the stock rear if I run DRs? I have a TA Diff cover with bearing supports but I know that will not save the day.

    How should I launch? Used my emergency brake to hold me at the lights, then let off when I took off at the green light.

    Would higher numeric gears help me out if my launches are terrible? Maybe helping to gain ground after the launch?

    My reaction time would question if I had a pulse, .6 both times. But I know that is not factored in the ET.

    Any tips or suggestions I am open ears.

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    O U 8 1 2 Spaz's Avatar
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    you could probably see a 12.5 on a good day with a better 60' and good tires/traction...

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    Well to be honest with you, I would think your car is easily capable of mid to low 12's.

    When drag racing, the most important part of it all is your 60' time. Yours is not "that" terrible, however, for every .1 second you improve on that, it equates to about .2 seconds off your final ET.

    There are people who have cut 1.9X on Nitto DRs (including myself), which isn't that much of an improvement over stock tires.

    If you are seriously considering taking this car to the track more often, and to really take advantage of that HP you have, you really need to consider getting an aftermarket rear end....and it sounds like you already know why. You will also want to use Mickey Thompson DRs. People here have launched those feathering out the clutch from 5500RPM and hook pretty well.

    When I was stock set-up, I found that feathering the clutch out at around 2500RPM resulted in the best 60' time, with minimal tire spin. You spinning hitting second will not go away with street tires...sorry.

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    Ok, so try holding it at 2500 RPM, get the clutch right at the point of contact, when the light changes push throttle down and let clutch up slow "riding" it slightly?

    Do you think having to shift into 4th gear right before crossing the 1/4 mile line hurts? Would it be better to change gears so I shift into 4th sooner and ride it out through the 1/4?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro View Post
    Ok, so try holding it at 2500 RPM, get the clutch right at the point of contact, when the light changes push throttle down and let clutch up slow "riding" it slightly?

    Do you think having to shift into 4th gear right before crossing the 1/4 mile line hurts? Would it be better to change gears so I shift into 4th sooner and ride it out through the 1/4?
    The best way to finish is being in gear at the peak of your powerband.

    If you are shifting right before you cross the line, that is not optimal...however, the only way for you to really change that is to change your tire size.

    I have 4.11 gearing and I am in 4th quite a bit before the finish line and I cross around 5500RPM if I remember right.

    As far as your take-off, the best advice is to just practice...practice...and practice again. Do not drive through the water box and do not do a burnout with stock tires.

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    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Yup a huge amount of ET is in the launch. I was at the track this last July, had a very cool night in the upper 60s, all I could manage were a couple 107s. 13.2 or so, with 2.1x 60 fts. Still faster than the fastest new Camaro SS I saw, he was running 106.5ish. However, 9 months after I put the Hooker LT/ORY, and no tune, on a cool Oct night in 2007 the car ran 109+ 7 runs, with a best of 12.89 @ 109.85, with a 1.98 60 ft. Street tires. I try to slip my clutch and tires about the same for my best launches, then floor it as quick as possible. Also helps to lessen the shock on the stock diff, I have a girdle and welded my axle tubes to the center to help strengthen it, with no problems (yet!) at 94k.

    I'm thinking a tune would help your car trap 2-3 MPH higher, even with a 2.1x 60 ft, and to answer your other question, the reaction time has no effect on your ET.

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    Low 90's in the 1/8th but only 111 in the 1/4??
    Something ain't right with that.

    Obviously the launch as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro View Post
    Ok, so try holding it at 2500 RPM, get the clutch right at the point of contact, when the light changes push throttle down and let clutch up slow "riding" it slightly?

    Do you think having to shift into 4th gear right before crossing the 1/4 mile line hurts? Would it be better to change gears so I shift into 4th sooner and ride it out through the 1/4?
    do you have 4.10's in the rear??? if not you shouldn't be shifting in to 4th... what rpm's are you shifting at???

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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro View Post
    I have a M6 1998 SS Camaro with a host of mods (small TFcam, TF heads, LTs,LCAs, PH Bar. . )
    Conservative Dynapack dyno was 382 HP 375 TQ at the wheels, nice flat torque curve. Happy DynoJet was 409 HP and 402 TQ.

    Took the car to the track last week on street tires and was a little dissapointed but know my driving was terrible.
    Two runs:
    12.92 @ 111.x mph 2.1 60'
    12.97 @ 110.x mph 2.2 60'
    If I recall correctly I think the 1/8 was in the low 90 MPH range at around 8.x seconds.

    My launches were terrible, one time spun, one time took off like a mom in a mini van pulling out of the grocery store parking lot.

    I spun shifing into 2nd and had to hit 4th just before the 1/4 mile marker. No missed gears but also granny shifting for the most part.

    In your opinion or based on F Body experiance what should this car run?

    How much difference can an improved launch make?

    How hard can I launch without busting the stock rear if I run DRs? I have a TA Diff cover with bearing supports but I know that will not save the day.

    How should I launch? Used my emergency brake to hold me at the lights, then let off when I took off at the green light.

    Would higher numeric gears help me out if my launches are terrible? Maybe helping to gain ground after the launch?

    My reaction time would question if I had a pulse, .6 both times. But I know that is not factored in the ET.

    Any tips or suggestions I am open ears.
    For the HP you show (on either dyno) your MPH seems to be somewhat low. Being in Maryland you should be damn near sea level too. My wifes car has a puny cam similar to an LS6 and nothing else internal, and it mph's at 111 much like yours with 2500-3,000 DA numbers. I 60 foot easy on purpose with 60 foot times much like you and also run 12.90's. I don't think there is any way mine would dyno as high as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro View Post
    Do you think having to shift into 4th gear right before crossing the 1/4 mile line hurts? Would it be better to change gears so I shift into 4th sooner and ride it out through the 1/4?

    You sound like you also have the same issues I have as well. I still run the stock rear, and stock 3.42's in her car, it's primarily meant as a driver. With the small camshaft upgrade (210/218 and .551/.551 on a 112 lsa) I shift at 6500 for best times. This gets me to the finish line in 3rd if I bump the rev limiter a couple times and trap 110 mph (6700 limiter), or I can shift to 4th a couple hundred feet before the finish line and it traps 111 mph.
    Like you, mine needs more rear gear in the worst way that would probably pick the car up another couple mph. But it's a driver, not a racer. Depends on how far you want to take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaz View Post
    do you have 4.10's in the rear??? if not you shouldn't be shifting in to 4th... what rpm's are you shifting at???
    You shift into 4th with a 3.42 gear as well running a stock height tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    You shift into 4th with a 3.42 gear as well running a stock height tire.
    That is correct, so long as the stock cam and rpm range is still used (aka 6,000 rpm shift points) You'll need 4th to make it.

    Once you have a cam like my wifes car for instance or the original poster,,,,you move that rpm shift point up higher. In my case 6,500. With the 3.42's I can just about make it to the finish line in 3rd gear trapping 110 mph. Stock height tire, but it bumps the limiter 3-4 times.

    No way could I do that with a stock cam and a 6,000 rpm limit.

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    Thanks everyone for the input.

    I had the car tuned at East Cost Supercharging in Cream Ridge, NJ. They are supposed to be among the best LS tuners or so I've read.

    I am running stock rear, stock 3.42 gears, stock tire height and have to shift into 4th I'm guessing 100' or so before the finish. Thought maybe numerically higher gears would help, redline sooner, shift into 4th sooner, and get to rev out 4th gear more before the finish but just a thought.

    I shift at 6,000 RPM, the small cam (216/220 duration, .560 in./.560 in. lift, 114 lobe separation running 10.6 : 1 compression) has great low end grunt but dies after 6,000 so I figured no sense in shifting it higher. Rev limiter is gone after the tune which scares me a bit so I could push it if I wanted to but I'm on a stock bottom end with 20k miles on it would I be looking for a kaboom doing this?

    I will re-check the tickets tonight but I'm pretty sure @ the 1/8 mile I was doing high 80's to low 90's mph. I thought gaining 20+ mph after the 1/8 was good, guess not?

    From what folks are saying the 2.1 - 2.2 60' is not that bad but guys watching at the track said if the car ran those times with my launch it was impressive cause the take off was so terrible.

    Thanks again for any tips / opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    That is correct, so long as the stock cam and rpm range is still used (aka 6,000 rpm shift points) You'll need 4th to make it.

    Once you have a cam like my wifes car for instance or the original poster,,,,you move that rpm shift point up higher. In my case 6,500. With the 3.42's I can just about make it to the finish line in 3rd gear trapping 110 mph. Stock height tire, but it bumps the limiter 3-4 times.

    No way could I do that with a stock cam and a 6,000 rpm limit.
    Yeah I didn't remember if the OP had a stock cam or not when I posted that. I agree.

    OP - It is my understanding that you should be shifting at the RPM that will give you peak HP after the RPM drop. Example...my car makes peak HP at 5550 RPM if I remember right from my DYNO graph and flattens out after that. Therefore, by me shifting at 6000RPM, I am in the heart of the HP/TQ range when I come off my shift. It really is a balance and you just need to determine the shifting points that give you the overall most peak performance.

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    That 1/4 mile MPH is low being a 6 speed. I would expect at least another 5-6 MPH. 2.1+ 60 foot is horrible in my book. Get that down as low as you feel safe doing so on the 10 bolt. Maybe the gears are holding your MPH back some, but 111 MPH seems low to me for your power, mods, and being a 6 speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    That 1/4 mile MPH is low being a 6 speed. I would expect at least another 5-6 MPH. 2.1+ 60 foot is horrible in my book. Get that down as low as you feel safe doing so on the 10 bolt. Maybe the gears are holding your MPH back some, but 111 MPH seems low to me for your power, mods, and being a 6 speed.
    I thought the mph sounded low for the HP claimed too. I know I don't make that much HP with just a tiny cam swap and I trap 111 mph with the same gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 98SSCamaro View Post
    Thanks everyone for the input.

    I had the car tuned at East Cost Supercharging in Cream Ridge, NJ. They are supposed to be among the best LS tuners or so I've read.

    I am running stock rear, stock 3.42 gears, stock tire height and have to shift into 4th I'm guessing 100' or so before the finish. Thought maybe numerically higher gears would help, redline sooner, shift into 4th sooner, and get to rev out 4th gear more before the finish but just a thought.

    I shift at 6,000 RPM, the small cam (216/220 duration, .560 in./.560 in. lift, 114 lobe separation running 10.6 : 1 compression) has great low end grunt but dies after 6,000 so I figured no sense in shifting it higher. Rev limiter is gone after the tune which scares me a bit so I could push it if I wanted to but I'm on a stock bottom end with 20k miles on it would I be looking for a kaboom doing this?

    I will re-check the tickets tonight but I'm pretty sure @ the 1/8 mile I was doing high 80's to low 90's mph. I thought gaining 20+ mph after the 1/8 was good, guess not?

    From what folks are saying the 2.1 - 2.2 60' is not that bad but guys watching at the track said if the car ran those times with my launch it was impressive cause the take off was so terrible.

    Thanks again for any tips / opinions.

    Your cam is close to mine. I have 210/218 at .050 and .551 lift int/exh all on a 112 lsa. I'm still running stock heads though, with stock compression and close to 80K miles. I shift at 6,500. Never had it on a dyno, but I would assume it stops making power at 6k or so. But it runs best times shifting at 6500. These little motors like rpm, only 346 cubes with stock 200cc intake runner heads takes rpm to make hp.
    Those short shifts at 6,000 could be why the mph is low for you. Your dyno will show your peak, and your shift points for best ET's would probably occure 4-500 rpms above that.

    60 foot times on stock rubber of 2.0 to 2.2 is pretty typical, especially with a car that has a 2.66 first gear and 3.42's out back. It's not going to rotate the earth with a setup like that. You could drop the 60 foot more if you want to push the limits of the stock rear. Sticky tires and high rpm clutch dumps might do it,,,,,for a while. Not worth the risk for slightly better ET's, especially since the combo isn't optimized with those 3.42's anyway, so why risk it.
    I run the same 60 foot times with mine, only because I choose to. Unless I get off my rump and build the 12 bolt with more gear along with a new driveshaft this car won't be seeing any spirited 60 foot times

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    You'll like what you see IF you could those 60 foots down below 2.0

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    Yep, the mph is there to support a low 12 second run.

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    Thanks again everyone. Going to give it another shot with this advice and see what happens, maybe I can improve with the advice given and see what happens.

    Not planning to race the car all the time but trying to see if what I run supports the HP / TQ I am supposed to be getting. My actual dyno was posted in another thread:
    Help - Trick Flow LS1 Top End Kit Dyno Reults
    I did the Trick Flow complete top end kit and really was not all that impressed for the price.

    This was the dyno ECS printed while tuning, final result was consistant 382.x RWHP and 375.x RWTQ Done on a Dynapack on a 100 degree plus day. They claimed the dyno runs on a day that hot is the worst this car will do.

    All supporting mods are there, fuel system upgraded, 42 lb injectors, LS6 intake, 90mm TB, TF CNC heads, TF Cam, Harland Sharps full roller rockers, LT headers, high flow cats, Loudmouth exhaust, TB coolant bypass, smooth intake bellow, K&N filter, LS7 lifters, correct legnth CM one piece push rods, running truck coils (which made little to no difference) . . . the list goes on. It's been suggested that I am running way to small of a cam for these heads and that I'm also restricted by the LS6 intake and should go with a FAST setup. Just not overly excited about a $800+ intake and a $500 tune, CAM doesn't bother me but will still need a tune after.

    I barely drive the car, sits in the garage most of the time. I can do the rear myself fairly cheap so I may try a set of 3.90 ring gears to see what that does for me. At least then I will have an idea of what gears to put in the stronger rear I will need once the stock rear fails. I figure 3.90 is in between 3.73 and 4.10 (the smallest and largest geares I'd be willing to run) and would let me know if I need more or less. A $300 learning experiance if nothing else and in theory at least allow me to cross the 1/4 in 4th approaching my redline.

    If you notice in the dyno power drops off at 6,000 that's why I shift there, is that wrong? Just weary about going over 6,000 but I guess one time wouldn't kill it so I will give it a try shifting between 6,400 and 6,500 to see what that does.

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    I'm going to put this in the drag racing section.

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