Pioneer PRS system

[LSCyaL8R]

So I'm currently in the planning stages of building out an audiophile grade sound system using all matching Pioneer Premier components. Although using two sets of TS-C720PRS component speaker systems would be ideal I realize that shoehorning them into the hatch area would prove to be a bit more than difficult so I am curious if anyone has put 5.25 inch speakers back there and if so how badly does one need to hack up their panels? so far the system i'm looking into reads like this:

Headunit: DEH-P800PRS
4 Channel Amp: PRS-D4200F
Front speakers: TS-C720PRS
Hatch Speakers: TS-C520PRS
Sail Panel speakers: ??
CD Changer location sub enclosure with: TS-W2502D4 sub
Sub amp: PRS-D2000SPL or PRS-D1200SPL

I don't know which speakers to use for the sail panels or if they should be amped separately. I also want a stealth install nothing flashy. I haven't nailed down all the details on wiring or mounting but i've also never handled an install like this before.

I am thinking of doing this in stages. I don't have the 2,000 plus that this would cost on hand so perhaps first grab a head unit, then a sub with enclosure. then start working on the speakers and finish off with a dedicated speaker amp down the road. this way it is handled in small easy to digest chunks.

So that's my story and where I stand now. I'm open to suggestions for sail panel speakers that will mesh well with a full pioneer premier system as well as amping suggestions. Right now I have Niche audio speakers in there installed by the previous owner. they sound OK but i haven't looked into their wiring, although it seems like it may be a single voice coil unit..... i'd have to take it out to be sure. I'm certain I wouldn't miss them if i found something better.

Finally back to the original question. Would 5.25 inch speakers fit in the hatch area with minimal mods?

Edit: I think it'd be easier to add links to all the components so those interested won't need to look for them

[Shudson105]

I have built a similar quality system using all Alpine components, so I know the component level will give a fantastic sounding system.

I have a couple of comments to share and a few questions for you.

1. Visit HUmount.com to get a very high quality mounting kit to finish off your head unit installation. Its worth it. See my starter button post (probably still on the first page of this forum) to see a good shot of mine.

2. The system is going to cost a lot more then the $2k you mentioned in your post. Your going to probably need a capacitor and higher amp alternator to power your system. Lots of good quality wiring and connectors. Dynamat for your doors at least.

3. Why do you want rear speakers? If your doing a sound quality system, the rear speakers won't add much if anything at all to the sound, while adding complexity when tuning the freq response.

4. Why do you want your rear speakers in the hatch and not installed in the rear sail panels?

Steven

[LSCyaL8R]

In previous installs, which admittedly were far less complicated than this, I have always aimed to maintain usage of all factory mounting locations. I personally find the stock monsoon system to sound rather decent even compared to my saturn's setup which includes 4 coaxial pioneer premiers with a 12" power acoustic sub powered by an 800 watt sony xplod monoblock. All that running off the stock HU leaves much to be desired and only manages to seemingly equal the quality of the monsoon. I know there is a lot more potential in my satty's speakers but I haven't had the desire to get a HU that would work it better.

I do not have much experience in tuning a system but i've always felt that, even with decent speakers, I have always noticed a distinct separation between sub bass and mid bass where the free air speakers mounted throughout a vehicle can't hit on a level that compliments a sub. The sail panel subs in the bird seem to have the punch i'm looking for without actually being on the same level as a sub. So the idea that a main 10" sub could be complimented by two mid bass subs 6.5 inches in size is a rather appealing concept to me. One that I would like to explore given the time and money.

Of course my next issue is the wiring and packaging of such a system. I am very big on keeping things as stock looking as possible, hence my fascination with utilizing the stock speaker locations as much as possible. I am not a fan of drilling through my vehicles sheet metal in any way so mounting my amps will prove to be quite a challenge. as will hiding all the associated hardware. Sound Quality is high on my list but flash is not. In fact I find it painful to even remove the factory HU and would prefer to replace it with something that at least has factory color lighting, which is why my last Pontiac(a 1990 sunbird) had a red JVC HU. Alas the Pioneer units that can change color are double din units that would require too much modification to fit so i will conceed this battle as being lost lol.

Again I think this project will move forward in phases. Phase 1 will simply be a HU. down the road we will move to more in depth and costly upgrades. Phase 2 will most likely be subwoofer and amp. Phase 3 will be speakers. Phase 4 will be speaker amp and wiring. Phase 5 will be all other related accessories. dynamat upgraded electrical system etc. I know many will shout ALTERNATOR FIRST!!!! i don't generally crank my music so much in the bird so the strain will be minimal but i will conceed that upgrading the electrics would be a wise move and something to consider down the road so that cranking it wouldn't ever prove to be an issue.

[JaycenK]

With that powerfull sub and the amps you could really easy distort the rear comp's if you put them in the hatch because of the sound wave reverbs of the hatch glass and will creat a low freaquincy reverb that will distort the higher frequincy comp's.
I think that is the point that shudson was tring to make as well. Of corse if you don't crank on it it would be fine and you would get a good angle off the glass for the mid and highs, but what fun is not crankin it?

[LSCyaL8R]

Well you answered that Q yourself with your emoticon. I love to hear the engine! Long distance cruising I love to hear my music and when chilling around the car its great to pop the hatch and have the tunes be clearly audible without being overbearing. also i will not be mounting my sub where it points toward the hatch glass. it will be of the hideaway variety stuffed in one of those custom enclosures that fit where the factory disc changer would be. it's a powerful sub but only one 10" sub shouldn't be kidney smashing powerful. The headunit also has an auto time adjust and EQ adjust function where you park the car in a quiet place with the windows closed and the car off and get out. it then uses a mic strapped to the headrest to compensate for time delay caused by speaker location as well as auto adjusting the EQ settings for optimum sound playback quality over the installed speakers. this includes auto adjusting the sub. kinda takes the fun out of tuning your own setup but i'm sure a machine is more accurate than my untrained ears. It's a pretty trick head unit. 16 band EQ x2.... yes times 2. its got individual 16 band EQ's for the right and left channels as well as a full integrated active crossover network and a copper chassis. totally trick HU!! I'm also really digging the faceplates at that HUmount website linked earlier. I think Firehawk lit up in red with minilamps and my build # would look SWEET with a nice flat black HU with white lighting.

[The Project]

I would say to run the front comps active since that is what the PRS800 is designed to do and ditch the rear speakers.

Also, stay away from capacitors as they are a waste of money. Spend the $$ to add deadener.

[LSCyaL8R]

I doubt i'll ditch the rear speakers and I'm also not so sure about running with the active xovers in the HU. I want the TS-C720PRS speakers for the front and It has a built in passive xover. In order to run something like that active on my system i'd need to have at least 4 amps in the car.... and i'm not so keen on giving up too much space. So i'm thinking of keeping it simple with a 4 channel amp and going passive.... who knows. Right now it sounds great on the stock speakers and cheap looking single voice coil sail subs. I might find myself super pleased once i pick up the TS-720PRS's

[02WS6dream]

my .02... I have built my stereo systems with similar sound goals as yours. I too wouldn't ditch the rear speakers-but trust me and the other guys that have said it--don't spend your wad on them. the stockers if still funcioning are sufficient. If they are not replace them with some quality, value entry-level units. Simple fact is that in the type of system you are building (SQ) the rear speakers have very little effect. they are there for fill; you will notice if they are not there but you will not be able to discriminate between $500 speakers and $80 speakers. I would suggest running those hatch speakers off the new HU and then using the 2 free channels of your 4 channel amp to power those mid-bass drivers you want in the sail panels. I've done both ways--and so my stang currently has stock rears on HU power; then 2 12" subs in trunk on 1000w rms and $500 A/d/s components up front with 100w X 2 rms amp. Loud, clear, and undistorted.

[02WS6dream]

oh--and pioneer HU in my car. Not as fancy as the one you're lookin at, but great unit! Bought it for the bluetooth--now I can talk and shift gears at the same time!

[LSCyaL8R]

My unit actually can support BT but it's an additional 100 dollar add on....... for the 5 volt pre outs and noise free chassis I think the loss of BT is acceptable. Besides most BT wouldn't be worth anything with the tops off anyway. Although I must admit our cars are quite quiet on the highway with the tops off. much better than anticipated. quieter than my saturn with its sunroof open... heck i'd say it's quieter than my Lincoln with the sunroof open as well!

My reason for wanting to put decent speakers in the hatch is for those days or nights when in a parking lot or down by the beach with friends. pop the hatch and get crystal clear tunes to enjoy. Bamboozle 2008 was so much better with my lincolns doors open and the system cranked before heading into the show. Yet even that setup can't compare to the sound that gets thrown from the hatch when it's open. So I figure even if it's just for fill it'll all be worth it those days that we're grillin at the game or waiting for friends at the concert or even just hanging out at the car show.

I'll admit the amping of all this seems daunting in my mind. the HU can control up to 3 levels of amps right through it's remote so i have some flexibility. I'm leaning toward getting the Kicker CVT65's for the sail panels even though I was aiming for a full premier system. Pioneer just doesn't offer a DVC 6.5 sub of any kind premier or not. People also seem to like their kickers and since the HU i seem to have lost some of the punch the monsoon did have. I found a good price on the Kickers so that will probably be step two. If I'm happy with the sound at that point i'll prob be looking to get the subwoofer in motion so i can finally take some of the low bass load off the stockers.

Once all that is done it'll prob be the end of the summer so who knows if i'll have the desire to keep going on it till next year. I do everything in a driveway so that i can actually move around!! so once it gets too cold pretty much nothing gets done.

of course the rest of that list still stands. I'd like to get the 720's in the front doors but still don't know whether i'd run the 4 speakers to 2 separate amps or not. 2 amps allow me to run an active system and 1 amp means i'd need to go passive though i could still put a high pass filter through the HU. Too much to plan!!!! so for now keep it simple... bolt on the sails and work on a sub lol

[Shudson105]

I totally understand if you want to use the system at parties and such and would like rear speakers for that purpose. I must share however, how effective just two speakers are: I have 150watts going to my two front speakers (150x2), and with my front doors open, the system is loud enough that the old lady across the street will come screaming at me to turn the system down since she can't hear her TV....

I am not trying to steer you completely away from your idea, but I don't want you to think you can't get what you are looking for with less. Properly setup of course. For example, two speakers that can handle 150watts are just as loud (all other specs being equal) as 4 speakers running 75watts, while taking up less space and being easier to tune (2 spks + 1 amp vs. 4 spks and 2 amps)

I also want to point out (in my case specifically), with a single 10" sub with 600 watts located in the "trunk", you cannot hear any bass outside of the car - hatch open or closed. I am sure a pair of 12"s located above the "trunk" can be heard just fine with the hatch open, but one 10" might not give you what you want when enjoying a party outside. In the car I can rattle your kidneys with response below 25hz :-D Your millage (and other people's) may vary.

As far as amps and crossovers go, I am using the active crossovers and filters of my processor to divide the signal between my amps. I use the manf supplied crossovers between my front speakers since Alpine included very high end components in them and even provided time/phase correction settings. I doubt I could set up my fronts any better then Alpine did without lots of expensive eq and A LOT of time and effort.

JFYI, the reason why the Monsoon system sounded a bit punchier was probably due to a common factory tuned bump in the 50hz range which gives the illusion of deeper bass than is really there.

Don't forget the Dynamat (or similar) when installing speakers!!! The more expensive the system, the more you will notice the difference.

[LSCyaL8R]

I agree with you on the Dynamat. I'm already getting rattles Just using what I've got now. I think the monsoon amp uses speaker level inputs and those hatch speakers don't seem to like the new power being fed into the monsoon amp. they were distoring terribly so I disconnected the mids for the time being... the highs distort a little less and i barely hear them from the front so i figured no harm letting them do their job and fill.

My project for Thursday will be to install the Kicker CVT65's in the sails. I've been asking around the rest of the board about the wiring on them and nobody seems to have thought of this or tried it..... Since the firebird had DVC subs in there and the Kicker is a SVC couldn't i use a bridged arrangement to power them? You know, use the positive from one set and the neg from the other? It would still be a 4 ohm load... just not sure if the monsoon would like being bridged. The extra power would be nice though. It would keep the kickers closer their design power. meh... something to think about.

[Shudson105]

So, after reading your other post, let's see if I understand correctly. The Firebird from the factory came with DVC 6.5" 4 ohm "subs" (using both sets of speaker leads). The previous owner removed them and added Niche Audio SVC 6.5" 4 ohms "subs" (I'm guessing just one set of the speaker leads?). I use the term "subs" loosely hear since the factory stuff are actually just small woofers and I am unfamiliar with Niche Audio's products...though I have heard of them. Now you wish to add Kicker SVC 6.5" 4 ohm subwoofers.

Mostly likely bridging the amp by the way you mention (pos from 1 set and neg from second set of terminals) should work fine. Almost all automotive grade amps are capable of running bridged at 4 ohms. Mostly likely (due to cost) the factory sub had two 8 ohm VCs. Therefore the amp bridged would run at 4 ohms. The size and heat of a 2 ohm capable sub amp would typically be far beyond the limits assigned to the stereo system by GM.

Any amp, factory or otherwise could care less what is attached to the speaker leads or how it is attached, the amp is going to react based the voltage of the incoming signal, the amperage of the incoming power and the ohms of the output device.

[Shudson105]

This setup was assuming that the factory Monsoon system had 2 sets of speaker leads going to EACH sail panel sub. If there was only 1 pair of speaker leads per sub then that changes things. Let me know.

[LSCyaL8R]

there are in fact 2 positive and 2 negative wires at each sail panel location. currently two of them are capped off and only 2 are attached to the sub. i didn't look into it but i don't believe that the current setup is bridged. but i'll look into which wires go where when i get home tonight. In fact the rated power of the niche sub is sufficient for me to test this theory on them. so if attempting a bridged arrangement is "safe" i may try it tonight

[02WS6dream]

curious about the 2 amp active crossover idea. My components are capable of being bi-amped but I really never saw what practical benefit there is to that. Sure, you can then choose your own cut-off frequencies for woofers and tweeters and adjust them separately--but what reason do you really have to do so? Do high end component sets not already include fairly well tuned passive units? don't know...just curious what benefit you guys are actually seeing--I might look into it. For years I've been very happy with feeding a clear, powerful signal to the crossover and letting it dish it out to tweets and drivers. And cheaper and much less complicated to tune...

[LSCyaL8R]

totally deep read on the benefits of Bi-amping can be found here http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm. I have a 3way network mode on my HU which would allow for three levels of amplification. i would have separate control of Low pass filters for the sub amp(amps), mid range amp high pass filter and tweeter amp high pass filter. since the frequencies are being separated at the HU you avoid any clipping that can occur in the amplifier circuit. Since that clipping would have existed after the amp the passive crossover would not be able to "repair" the clipped signal it would just route the distorted frequencies to the separate drivers. I didn't read the whole thing but it seems like having the signal split before amplification allows less power to do more and do it more cleanly. In his example 2 100 watt amps provide the same driving force as a 400 watt amp.

Yes any good component set will come with decent crossovers. but unless your amp is truly reference quality and can equally reproduce all frequencies at all power levels you will eventually end up with some degree of clipping and render your passives useless in preventing speaker damage. It sounds like a lot of work to set up a full 3 way network and the biggest challenge i can see is my desire to continue utilizing the sail panel subs in the finished product. sure i can get a 4 channel amp for the mids and a 4 channel amp for the highs but how will I control a separate amp that just gets midbass to supplant the door mids and pick up where the trunk sub leaves off.... this will take some serious thought.