Note: GTO prices are going up...

**TheJudge05** · 06-18-2008, 10:54 AM

I have an 05 yellow goat M6, totally stock, paid $25k w/3300 miles on odometer. I bought the car a little over a year ago. A few months ago a co-worker started looking for GTOs on Autotrader and his first comments to me were that he thought my car went up in value since I bought it... Surprised I had him send me the link and I checked for myself. Indeed my car seemed to have increased in value; we could not find one similar that was less then $25k, and all of them had more mileage. I looked again on Autotrader today, once again I find a car like mine (2005 M6 - $26995) with more then double the miles for $2000 more then what I paid... In fact the entire first page of GTOs (25) were over $25k. Wow, I can't belive my car is going up in value, awesome...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...e=&cardist=200

**Mr. Luos** · 06-18-2008, 11:01 AM

Did you post this in the Firebird section on purpose??

**LS won** · 06-18-2008, 05:58 PM

Not around Providence, RI
Dealerships can't give them away from what I have been told at Paul Masse Chevrolet,
They sit on that lot slowly depreciating, losing that hefty 25k in a matter of weeks, then they are shipped out to a subsidiary for even less money....

The truth is, the starting price doesn't prove the value of the vehicle, it is the average purchase price that proves real world value. Hell if I paid the price the dealerships want me to pay for a low milage WS6 in RI, I would be spending 20k +

While I know this is one dealer and some may call it an isolated phenomenon. Regardless, you won't know whether the vehicle's value has accrued until the worth is assessed by means of average purchase price.

**TheJudge05** · 06-18-2008, 06:22 PM

Actually my search included RI, all of it... I live about 30 miles from RI. First of all dealerships aren't selling "new" GTOs anymore, and used dealerships are going to price a vehicle so it will sell. They don't have the time to mess around trying to sell a car at thousands over actual sale prices, so your comments are without merit. I'm glad to see GTOs, with the incredible Ls2 motor, is holding it's value and in some cases actually gaining value...

**LS won** · 06-18-2008, 07:05 PM

Please read carefully before posting, I never referred to GTOs as new and Paul Masse Chevrolet is a reputable new and used car dealership (Sorry I didn't make that more obvious)
I never said these vehicles were brand "new" and I know they were discontiued due to low sales, however, your view is also false, the value of a vehicle is not the price it is POSTED at ( posted not referring to brand new price but rather the price the dealership starts you out at whether NEW or USED) but rather the price it is PURCHASED FOR. The price someone actually pays for the vehicle is the true real world value more or less, not starting prices that dealerships or car owners start you off at. So when autotrader posts a price, that is not the real value but rather a price that dealerships or individuals expect to be talked down from. That is why saying your vehicle has accrued in value is false....on autotrader you will find very inflated prices and some relatively low prices, these are all negiotiable to some extent. True value cannot be accurately assessed by posting prices but rather the prices in which people purchase their vehicles, even then it is not flawless.
The value of your vehicle with low miles may certainly have increased but using autotrader as a reference does not make the case. Even using KBB or something of that nature is not totally perfect but that is a far more concrete reference than autotrader.
I am certainly not attacking your GTO but rather your source of information and how you used them to show value increase.
This is a more accurate show of value not inflated dealership prices which are expecting to get talked down, possibly even several thousands from the posted price.
"http://http://www.kbb.com/KBB/UsedCars/PricingReport.aspx?YearId=2005&VehicleClass=UsedCa r&ManufacturerId=40&Condition=Excellent&ModelId= 25 1&PriceType=Retail&VehicleId=1461&Mileage=3300&S el ectionHistory=1461%7C26683%7C02914%7C0%7C0%7C"][/URL]
Here is your car with your miles and Paul Masse's zip code and again this is not perfect either but more accurate than dealership prices.
Well whatever you may believe, we can agree to disagree
As I can tell you love your GTO and take great pride in your LS2 as you should, however more concrete evidence rather than dealership starting prices would work more in your favor.
You aren't going to gloat in a Firebird forum that easily

.... better evidence could truly prove your point.
As it stands.... referencing Autotrader does not hold water...
Agree to Disagree?
Have fun in your low miles 6.0

**pont3** · 06-19-2008, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Luos

Did you post this in the Firebird section on purpose??

Damn, I could have sworn the title of this sub-forum was GTO.

**sappy96** · 06-19-2008, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by LS won

I never said these vehicles were brand "new" and I know they were discontiued due to low sales

Stop right there.
That just shows how much you don't know.

**TheJudge05** · 06-20-2008, 10:23 AM

Wow LS won wrote a novel trying to say how GTOs are losing value??? Wrong again LS1, if dealerships couldn't sell the GTOs for something close to the asking price then they would simply lower the starting price, some dealership would do it and the rest would have to follow, its simple supply and demand coupled with economics. What you don't understand is that the production numbers on the Goats were low, lower then almost any car like it in GMs history. Finding a mint M6 in the color you want can be difficult and when you find the car you will pay the price. But enough of this, the facts speak for themselves.
On a final note, you go on to say that GTOs in Providence RI sell low, during my search I couldn't even find one in Providence, so much for that story...

**LS won** · 06-20-2008, 06:29 PM

Sappy, it shows how much you know
Bob Lutz called it an "utter failure"
Here is a link to an article so you can catch up, it was also on speed TV, and you might want to look that up too
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums...hp?t16372.html
http://www.nextautos.com/videos/bob-...ac-gto-failed/
And you may search to look for Bob Lutz and reasons on Google to find better results; however those reasons directly affected the sales figures and DID cause the end of the GTO. That is from the man at GM himself,
Ask this question, why would they discontinue a vehicle that sold very well? Even Ford isn’t that stupid
As for Judge, you do not understand basic Dealership practices
You always price it higher than u expect to sell it for.....
I am not going to get into these basic dealership methods with you, maybe you paid the asking price and you were the tool or you plain don't understand how dealerships make money
For you, I subscribe Edmonds being a car sales man; this will explain how they mark up and make money to some extent but if you have a friend that is one certainly speak to him, it would open your eyes up
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html
I did not say that your car was losing value but rather your method of proving you were gaining value is false. PLAIN and simple, nothing more nothing less.
Lets go online surfing for average prices of vehicles from dealerships to prove….what?
Actual value or how inflated dealership prices are compared to private party
Read carefully as previously stated and think with an educated mind it will go along way…
It is simple does Ebay’s “Buy it now” always sell for that price no, they get around that price especially for vehicles
You do realize that you are using only three vehicle postings as your references. Also, another thing is what if you got a good deal on your vehicle? The sales man needed to fill his quota? Was hurting for cash and let it go for less to get it off the lot when he sold the car to you? Maybe you got a great deal and it makes it seem as if your car has increased in value
Too many variables, wait twenty years then we may see if it holds or increases in value…
Also I said Paul Masse, not online, I was told by a very reliable source at Paul Masse that most dealers around him have had trouble selling them...Plus I didn't say they sold low but rather they did not sell at all(sat on the lot over the past couple months) (no one bought them)(read the first post) and were sold off to subsidiaries across the east coast, this is fact for this particular dealer and ones they are connected to (which aren't online)
Read, Read again, comprehend and write a rational response not garbage accusing me of things that were not said....

**440 rwhp trans am** · 06-20-2008, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by LS won

Sappy, it shows how much you know
Bob Lutz called it an "utter failure"
Here is a link to an article so you can catch up, it was also on speed TV, and you might want to look that up too
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums...hp?t16372.html
http://www.nextautos.com/videos/bob-...ac-gto-failed/
And you may search to look for Bob Lutz and reasons on Google to find better results; however those reasons directly affected the sales figures and DID cause the end of the GTO. That is from the man at GM himself,
Ask this question, why would they discontinue a vehicle that sold very well? Even Ford isn’t that stupid
As for Judge, you do not understand basic Dealership practices
You always price it higher than u expect to sell it for.....
I am not going to get into these basic dealership methods with you, maybe you paid the asking price and you were the tool or you plain don't understand how dealerships make money
For you, I subscribe Edmonds being a car sales man; this will explain how they mark up and make money to some extent but if you have a friend that is one certainly speak to him, it would open your eyes up
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html
I did not say that your car was losing value but rather your method of proving you were gaining value is false. PLAIN and simple, nothing more nothing less.
Lets go online surfing for average prices of vehicles from dealerships to prove….what?
Actual value or how inflated dealership prices are compared to private party
Read carefully as previously stated and think with an educated mind it will go along way…
It is simple does Ebay’s “Buy it now” always sell for that price no, they get around that price especially for vehicles
You do realize that you are using only three vehicle postings as your references and another thing is what if you got a good deal? The sales man needed to fill his quota? Was hurting for cash and let it go for less?
Too many variables, wait twenty years then we may see if it holds or increases in value…
Also I said Paul Masse, not online...
Read, Read again, comprehend and write a rational response not garbage that accusing me of things that were not said....

well jack ass. pontiac paid holden for about 20k gto's to come from holden for 3 years then they were going to see how they sold. it was pre planed.

**LS won** · 06-20-2008, 07:44 PM

The real question is whether your car has increased in value but how would you evaluate this?
A true evaluation would be how much Private party cars are selling for, this would show whether you are in the same ball park as when you bought or increasing in value.
The dealer would never give you 25k for your car and you understand this, they could get it at an auction for far less or just generally screw u over
Private Party is what you should gauge, if your vehicle is increasing in value in that area and you could sell it for 26k then I stand corrected
It is more likely that your GTO will sell for around the same price
Right now it is too soon to say that your car is increasing in value, give it twenty years at least to notice a consistent bump in price

**LS won** · 06-20-2008, 07:48 PM

I was not being a jackass, save the hostility, I am just citing Bob Lutz
Honestly, many things went wrong from what I understand
I was just merely using Bob Lutz from GM as a proper source mainly because he would have the most knowledge on the GTO & would offer less specualtion and more facts

**LS won** · 06-20-2008, 07:52 PM

Bob Lutz
“it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market…for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”
- “We overpriced it.”
- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”-
Equalling poor sales & the end of the GTO, maybe I have read some reports wrong or maybe someone knows more on this topic but from what little I could find on an official reason was the little that Bob Lutz spoke about
440rwhp do you have a legitimate source for that information? If so, I stand corrected & post a link so I can learn more about GM's original plan for the Holden Monaro/ GTO in America

**440 rwhp trans am** · 06-20-2008, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by LS won

I was not being a jackass, save the hostility, I am just citing Bob Lutz
Honestly, many things went wrong from what I understand
I was just merely using Bob Lutz from GM as a proper source mainly because he would have the most knowledge on the GTO & would offer less specualtion and more facts

well shit sorry

anyways im not stupid. i got my gto for 34k and 0% for 5 years. i now owe 27k and my ass is upside down. i have 12k on the clock and i figure i could sell it for 21-23k max. its stock.

**LS won** · 06-20-2008, 08:04 PM

It is fine, I guess I came off as a jackass with my earlier posts
If so, honestly I am not trying to be a jackass, just offering a conflicting view which ever maybe right.
I am not trying to start a war, I apologize if it has seemed that way.
Don't mind me I am just a tad bit stubborn

**TheJudge05** · 06-22-2008, 04:23 AM

Dude not sure what your problem is in general, you've made a number of comments that a simply ridiculous, "need to wait 20 years before seeing if your car is going up in value" - translation - stupid. "you looked at 3 vehicles to determine your value" - translation - not true... I looked at over 200 listings, regardless the arguement is pointless at this point. Considering your lame attempt to conclude that the GTO styling is outdated or lame, I only look to the latest vehicle Bob Lutz has decided to bring to the Pontiac stable, the G8, umm funny how the G8 looks just like a 4 door GTO, maybe you have to spend $150 updating the front grills. Get a life guy and go stay in your Firechicken forum...

**Sarge** · 06-22-2008, 05:08 AM

I was offered $80K for Oprah. No shit. Of course I have more than that in her.....but hey...$80K is $80K...I put Oprah's black us against any supercar....leather seats/Blaupunkt/A/C/600HP/Pedders Suspension on and on...of course a kick ass custom paint job and you got it....
As for the resell value....I would submit the loss of value is lower on a time line curve than a Mustang of equal value.....say a Roush model....I see those in the paper today for less than a 05 GTO and they paid more....
I will also submit that Pontiac/GM never advertised nor marketed the GTO at all....no effort whatsoever....the dealers butt raped folks as the GTO was hard to get for them and they went above sticker on most in 04 and early 05.....
Most GTO owners I know have modified them and are happy as shit with them.....excellent car....most excellent ride and quality....and at the end of the day...that is what matters.....todays "new" GTO owners are the most loyal bunch I have seen in years.....and for a reason.....
My final thought on the economics ( who gives a shit) of the 04/5/6 GTO's is simple.....GM planned the run for just 3 years...they put no effort into it at all....they got what they paid for...the rebirth of Pontiac and set the buying public up for the rebirth of the Pontiac Performance Division.....see the Ute/G8...........

**PatrizioD** · 06-23-2008, 06:30 AM

All I have to say is THANK GOD Bub Lutz and GM didnt advertise for the GTO. Look at how high the price of the new Challenger is going? They're going to be producing a lot more Challengers (across all models, v6 and v8 and SRT) than GTO's, yet the dealers are marking them up ~100% in some cases. I bought my 2006 GTO in November, paid $26k for it with 12k on the odometer...I havent done any mods yet (gas is expensive enough) but I am still happy as a quahog every time I get in it. Ill forever be a fan of the original, and the new Gran Turismo Omologato.

**sappy96** · 06-23-2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by LS won

Sappy, it shows how much you know
Bob Lutz called it an "utter failure"
Here is a link to an article so you can catch up, it was also on speed TV, and you might want to look that up too
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums...hp?t16372.html

Except for the fact that it was only ever going to be a 3 year run.
They could have sold 100k or 5 a year and it still would have been 3 years.
I have read what Mr. Lutz said when the article first came out. Thanks for the offer tho.
You can choose to comprehend what you like.

I will say that 95% of the GTOs are not going up in value, if not 99%.

**Beachernaut** · 06-27-2008, 09:58 AM

Although the value of our cars seems to be leveling out. I wouldn't base the value on the adds you see. I've been keeping an eye on 04 M6 gto's for the last few months on Auto Trader. Although there are quite a few listed for $18k to $20k, I believe the ones that are selling are going for less than $17k. The ones that are at $18k+ firm, are the same ones that were there months ago (mine included).