04 M6 5.7 Cam Questions

**ne0fiend** · 09-09-2009, 04:47 PM

Hey Bros.
I know I don't post much, and keep to myself usually - but I need some serious advise/pointers.

I have been playing with cam ideas for about 11 months now, and up until last night had no idea what I really wanted, or which way I wanted to take this motor.
Some of you know, this is the second 5.7 i've gone through due to a nitrous misshap... Needless to say, I am trying to be much more conservative with this one, as I discovered you can't just bolt on and tune-in horsepower on these new model 350s like my father and I used to when I was growing up.
Here's my situation:

I want to go mid/big with a lot of lift.
I am really leaning toward this Patriot cam with 226/226 Dur. @.050 .585/.585Lift 112 LSA, but don't understand the limits of the 5.7.
I have the usual street rod sh*t; MSD CPs, HP wires, bigger throttle body etc.

How will the computer react to that cam's numbers?

Will I need to flash it?

Will the exhaust temp be too hot (I don't have headders)?

I don't understand why the Patriot sales rep is concerned about the manifold temp if the motor's goign to run fat.

Anyway, I am all ears. Would really appreciate an elder's opinion/knowledge.
FBJones, Sarge - I always listen when you guys talk. Help me out?
I'm really concerned that I'm goign to f*ck the car up again.
This will be my first cam in a new 350, but I know it's probably the same song and dance; pully > cover > chain > gear > retainer > cam : reinstall...
Point is, I'm still a kid when it comes to this kind of new stuff.
Thanks as always.
-Marc

**derbs** · 09-09-2009, 04:56 PM

have you looked at any of the cam packages the texas speed? if you want big go with the magic stick 4 the spec are on their website

**ne0fiend** · 09-09-2009, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by derbs

have you looked at any of the cam packages the texas speed? if you want big go with the magic stick 4 the spec are on their website

Yeah, that's a great camshaft, but a little too big for my needs. I am trying to keep it minimal in application while getting the best bang:buck ratio.
I already have a 10.5 Tire car as a time and money sink, so anything that will require constant upkeep (tuning) or too many additional parts (seats, retainers, etc) I am shying away from.
I appreciate you turning me on to this Vendor, though. Thanks.

**derbs** · 09-09-2009, 05:29 PM

thunder racing has a cam think its called the old man cam not 100% sure but I think that one doesn't need tuning

**anniversary30** · 09-09-2009, 05:30 PM

What are you looking to get out of the car? what kind of HP #'s or QM times do you want out of it? Or are you just looking to get a nice lope out of it?

**0rion** · 09-09-2009, 07:31 PM

the number 1 thing you need to secure is good tuning. The fact you've popped multiple motors makes me question the tunes you've had unless you're running large shots of spray. With a good tune you should have no problem running a 230 or less duration cam.

**mark21742** · 09-10-2009, 01:20 AM

if at all possible I'd get a set of longtube headers on the car 1st, otherwise your exhaust will really restrict the possible gain from a cam of any size.
there is a guy out of texas that sells regrinds on Ebay for $125 + $17 shipping. I'm running his hr284 cam now 220/224 ,570/.58 112lsa.
I might be upgrading to his hr288, its specs are 236/242 .580/.590 112lsa

search on ebay >ls1 cam,and look for hr288 (fresh copy)

**ne0fiend** · 09-10-2009, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by anniversary30

What are you looking to get out of the car? what kind of HP #'s or QM times do you want out of it? Or are you just looking to get a nice lope out of it?

I would like to see, at minimum, something close to 50HP from the cam application. The lope is also a huge staple; it represents accomplishment to me. If the motor doesn't rumble and spit, it's boring.

So I suppose the answer to your question is bottom end for the 8th, or horsepower. This car won't get any QM time, but rather the 8th, so I would like to keep it in the low end, kick-you-in-the-pants trqe 60 foot times.

**ne0fiend** · 09-10-2009, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by 0rion

the number 1 thing you need to secure is good tuning. The fact you've popped multiple motors makes me question the tunes you've had unless you're running large shots of spray. With a good tune you should have no problem running a 230 or less duration cam.

So you're affirming what I figured in the first place about these new 350s...
It'll take whatever I cram in it, just as long as I tune it to run.
If that's the case, will the computer respond well to the cam I'm going to be using, or will I need to flash it?

PS, wasn't my tune that blew that last one, it was an RPM actuated set up that got stuck.

**mark21742** · 09-10-2009, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by ne0fiend

So you're affirming what I figured in the first place about these new 350s...
It'll take whatever I cram in it, just as long as I tune it to run.
If that's the case, will the computer respond well to the cam I'm going to be using, or will I need to flash it?

PS, wasn't my tune that blew that last one, it was an RPM actuated set up that got stuck.

for a cam swap you NEED a tune and valve springs

**ne0fiend** · 09-10-2009, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by mark21742

for a cam swap you NEED a tune and valve springs

Well the springs and retainers come in the kit. I suppose what I really want to know is- what are we talking about when we say tune?
Just flashing the computer and letting it relearn?
Adding headders first?
Injectors? Etc.
Thanks.

**mark21742** · 09-10-2009, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by ne0fiend

Well the springs and retainers come in the kit. I suppose what I really want to know is- what are we talking about when we say tune?
Just flashing the computer and letting it relearn?
Adding headders first?
Injectors? Etc.
Thanks.

as far as the tune, when you upgrade to a new cam the airflow, fuel needs and spark tables will need adjusted by a tuner (such as Frost) or you can get a program like Hptuners and reprogram the computer yourself (this takes lots of time and learning to do it yourself). the computer can only make up for so much
if your just going with a cam you should be fine with your stock injectors. the tuner will beable to tell you.
when it comes to the headers, technically you don't really make power with an exhaust.....the exhaust allows your engine to "breathe" better by allowing exhaust gas to be expelled quicker with less backpressure while still quieting it down enough to be driven on the street

**ne0fiend** · 09-10-2009, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by mark21742

when it comes to the headers, technically you don't really make power with an exhaust.....the exhaust allows your engine to "breathe" better by allowing exhaust gas to be expelled quicker with less backpressure while still quieting it down enough to be driven on the street

OK, this is good information. I know you recently went through this with your goat so i'm taking your input as golden here.
Esentially what i'm getting from this is
A) Cammign without headders for this motor is counter productive on some level. So I shoudl do the headders too. Awesome, I will do that.
B) I need to set fuel/air specs with the diablo sport handheld.
Iv'e got that on order as well.

The only remaining question I have is this;
The ls1 5.7 makes something like 10:1 CR, right?
Am I OK to use this cam with that compression ratio?
Should I even be concerned with that kind of thing?
thanks.

**0rion** · 09-10-2009, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by ne0fiend

OK, this is good information. I know you recently went through this with your goat so i'm taking your input as golden here.
Esentially what i'm getting from this is
A) Cammign without headders for this motor is counter productive on some level. So I shoudl do the headders too. Awesome, I will do that.
B) I need to set fuel/air specs with the diablo sport handheld.
Iv'e got that on order as well.

The only remaining question I have is this;
The ls1 5.7 makes something like 10:1 CR, right?
Am I OK to use this cam with that compression ratio?
Should I even be concerned with that kind of thing?
thanks.

you're probably going to find that the diablo alone won't do what you need it to do tune wise once you put a cam in there. You really need someone with an editor because there is a lot of fine tuning that goes with a cam. You're best bet is to find a good competent local tuner that can have the car in front of them. That 226 cam should be an excellent driver with the proper tune and should work well for what you want it to do. It won't have a ton of lope to it but being on a 112 it should have a fair amount. You'll have to do valve springs along with the cam and headers so add those to your list.

**mark21742** · 09-10-2009, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by ne0fiend

OK, this is good information. I know you recently went through this with your goat so i'm taking your input as golden here.
Esentially what i'm getting from this is
A) Cammign without headders for this motor is counter productive on some level. So I shoudl do the headders too. Awesome, I will do that.
B) I need to set fuel/air specs with the diablo sport handheld.
Iv'e got that on order as well.

The only remaining question I have is this;
The ls1 5.7 makes something like 10:1 CR, right?
Am I OK to use this cam with that compression ratio?
Should I even be concerned with that kind of thing?
thanks.

I use Hptuners program, I know the Diablo is somewhere between a standard handheld and full tunning program, but don't know if its cappable of tuning for a cam.

as for the compression ratio, yup 10.1:1 static compression.....the larger the cam you go with ( more duration) the lower your dynamic compression will be. to run on pump gas you want to stay at or below 8.7:1 dynamic compression......that is why people get their heads milled when doing a cam.....to bring comp ratio up to about 11:1. do you need to change your compression ratio? no you don't, but again you will make more power with higher compression ratio

**ne0fiend** · 09-10-2009, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by 0rion

you're probably going to find that the diablo alone won't do what you need it to do tune wise once you put a cam in there. You really need someone with an editor because there is a lot of fine tuning that goes with a cam. You're best bet is to find a good competent local tuner that can have the car in front of them. That 226 cam should be an excellent driver with the proper tune and should work well for what you want it to do. It won't have a ton of lope to it but being on a 112 it should have a fair amount. You'll have to do valve springs along with the cam and headers so add those to your list.

Got the valve springs in a rebuild kit from SRP. Headders are still in the shopping cart on Summit. I am trying to find some for under $300.00. Proving to be tough.
As far as the Diablo Sport is concerned; in reading the EULA and booklette, it looks like you're right.
Which brings be to another question: What's a good tuner that won't break the bank? The only ones I see are $600.00 and up.
Sorry if I come off as lazy, I am looking, I promise. I just can't find any good deals; or what I would consider good deals.
Thanks a million.
-Marc

**derbs** · 09-11-2009, 03:22 AM

check out tunedbyfrost.com

**ne0fiend** · 09-11-2009, 05:57 AM

Derbs! This is perfect!
I will be sending the chip to them for the Mail Order Tune on Monday. Spoke with a man this morning and went over the details. What an awesome compromise!
The only downside, and I do mean the ONLY downside I could deduct from this option is not being able to drive the car while the chip's shipped. But it's a small price to pay for excellent service (so far) and amazing savings. I'll post a full-on before & after for you all once the the 5.7 is cammed and tuned and the headders are bolted on.
Major thanks, Derbs!

**mark21742** · 09-11-2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by derbs

check out tunedbyfrost.com

I have never heard anything bad said about Frost, I've talked to him a lot and asked him lots of questions.....id put him on the top as far as pro tuners go. he knows these things in and out