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VIDEO: Vette vs. DSM

This is a discussion on VIDEO: Vette vs. DSM within the Kill Stories forums, part of the Racing Forums category; Originally Posted by Smokinstorm ...a modded AWD DSM with no more than a 20G and supporting fuel mods would lay ...

  1. #21
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokinstorm
    ...a modded AWD DSM with no more than a 20G and supporting fuel mods would lay waste to most stock to highly modded Vettes in a race on the street.
    Heh, maybe in you're neck of the woods.... but not in mine. I recently finished installing a set of Competition Cams (p/n CCA-101200), as well as a full 3" exhaust, and upgraded Turbo, into my friends 95-GSX Eclipse. He's been racing for years, just like me, and even with a DSM.chip, he barely broke into the 11's, trapping above 130mph.

    Carefully inspect the quarter mile time of this street legal LS1, then carefully re-inspect it's trap speed. You will never, never, find any DSM run those times, while trapping that low....

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokinstorm
    It's all about getting traction off the line and applying all the power available.
    Yeah, tell that to Rick Head and his infamous TT Camaro, as he wipes the floor with DSM hero John Shepard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokinstorm
    On the street where "track" prep is minimal, the AWD has an advantage that's very difficult to overcome.
    Difficult to overcome? I'm running ladder bars, and Mickey Thompson ET Street Radials on my 86 Iroc, and traction couldn't be any better, on the street. I have yet to break loose in a street race, and I'm pulling close to 500 pound feet of torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    Heh, maybe in you're neck of the woods.... but not in mine. I recently finished installing a set of Competition Cams (p/n CCA-101200), as well as a full 3" exhaust, and upgraded Turbo, into my friends 95-GSX Eclipse. He's been racing for years, just like me, and even with a DSM.chip, he barely broke into the 11's, trapping above 130mph.

    Carefully inspect the quarter mile time of this street legal LS1, then carefully re-inspect it's trap speed. You will never, never, find any DSM run those times, while trapping that low....



    Yeah, tell that to Rick Head and his infamous TT Camaro, as he wipes the floor with DSM hero John Shepard...



    Difficult to overcome? I'm running ladder bars, and Mickey Thompson ET Street Radials on my 86 Iroc, and traction couldn't be any better, on the street. I have yet to break loose in a street race, and I'm pulling close to 500 pound feet of torque.
    This thing was wrecking V8s left and right and there are enough videos floating around to prove it. It was beating 600+ rwhp Cobras, This Corvette, a Viper and a few heavily modified F-bodies. No one is launching as hard as AWD on the street. If I had AWD, I would launch at about 7K and leave any rwd/fwd car by atleast a car on the launch. At the track on slicks is obviously a different story. This Vette is good for 9s, but look where this EVO is. It pays not to underestimate anything.

    http://srvidz.vidiac.com/Player.aspx...F9B35F6368&p=0

  3. #23
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc87GN
    This thing was wrecking V8s left and right and there are enough videos floating around to prove it. It was beating 600+ rwhp Cobras.
    I'm honestly not arguing the capability of AWD, as I've seen plenty over the last few years running extremely fast. There are way too many factors to weigh in though, as far as street racing is concerned. For one, horsepower, IMHO, is completely irrelevant. On the street, torque is king... which is why I elected to go with a big block, myself.

    I've been toying with my friend's GSX ever since we finished, and although his launches would embarass most wannabe's out there on the street, I consistently take him at every stop light... then pull on him like you wouldn't believe.

    Yes, Evo's, STI's, TSI's and GSX's are fabulous cars to launch with... but if you know what you're doing, any car can launch just as good, if not better. Take a look at you're engine, for instance;

    One of my good friends built a 1988 Firebird, and installed a 3.8 Turbo from a wrecked Grand National. He went with a 12-bolt 3.55 posi, and T-56 tranny.... spohn torque arm, and subframe connectors (welded). Not sure how much boost he's pushing, but believe me when I tell you, the car is death out there on the street. Launches perfectly, each and every time....

    ... it's all in the set-up (and driver).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc87GN
    This Corvette, a Viper and a few heavily modified F-bodies. No one is launching as hard as AWD on the street. If I had AWD, I would launch at about 7K and leave any rwd/fwd car by atleast a car on the launch.
    I disagree. It depends on the set-up (and the driver). Our cars were not designed from the factory to launch with the best of them... yet, there are so many things you can do, to make it do just that. Also, launching at 7-grand isn't really advisable. Although the pushrod-less engine can take the beating, you'll be going through clutches literally every weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc87GN
    At the track on slicks is obviously a different story. This Vette is good for 9s, but look where this EVO is. It pays not to underestimate anything.
    I don't underestimate anything. However, as mentioned, Rick Head's Twin Turbo'ed 427 (street legal) SBC Camaro, will out launch any street legal, AWD Import you can find.... and he does it on street radials.

    Rick Head - 7.663 @ 186.56 (Street Radials)

    ... you gotta love it!
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 11-28-2005 at 05:12 PM.

  5. #25
    I find it negligibily impressive Rick Head's 427ci Twin 80mm Turbo'd V8 car (7.6).beats John Shepherd's 122ci single turbo'd I-4 AWD car which goes 7.9@179.

    Believe me, Im not putting Rick down as what he has done is incredible and his times are just flat out crazy esp for being on radials, but I mean "wiping the floor"? Comeon. Give credit where due.

    His car is .3 tenths faster while having an engine MORE than 4x the size and an extra turbo to go along with it. Also, calling that thing street legal is equivocal. Im not allowed to post pics (must have certain number of posts), but give me a break. That thing couldnt pass inspection as it sits in the track in a million years. Streetable is a better term and that thing is 100% none. This can go into a longer debate but lets not.

    We all know RWD is the best racing platform for drag racing, I think what guys are just trying to say is, these really fast RWD cars with slicks once on the street against very fast AWD cars lose often because of traction. Like someone said, when at the track, its different!

  6. #26
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    Believe me, Im not putting Rick down as what he has done is incredible and his times are just flat out crazy esp for being on radials...
    ... depends on how you decipher the meaning behind "wiping the floor" Classes are classes, and in each class... winners, usually tend to win by tenths. I know what Shepard runs, and I know what Rick runs. But to make you're understanding of my point more feasible, throw some true "drag slicks" on Rick Heads's car, and maybe the concept of "wiping the floor" will become just a little bit more prevalent here.

    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    His car is .3 tenths faster while having an engine MORE than 4x the size and an extra turbo to go along with it....
    That's irrelevant though; GSX's, Supra's, STI's etc... can make much more power with a single turbo setup, as opposed to a twin....

    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    Also, calling that thing street legal is equivocal. Im not allowed to post pics...
    No need to, I will myself;

    Rick Head

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    ...

    That's irrelevant though; GSX's, Supra's, STI's etc... can make much more power with a single turbo setup, as opposed to a twin....

    No need to, I will myself;
    It's not irrelevant. I was merely pointing out he is going only slightly faster with A LOT more under the hood, (4x bigger motor and 2 turbos) thats to say why I am more impressed when I see Shepherd run more so than Rick. Personally that is.

    Also, the picture of Rick's car was to point out how ridiculous it is to call that thing street "legal" as if it were some sort of street vehicle. Thanks for posting the pic, I still cant do it lol

    Again, Im not trying to start an argument at all so dont take it that way, more of what I said was a personal view.

    You're comparing Rick's car to Shep's car and they aren't even in the same classes.
    Last edited by EE1983; 12-06-2005 at 09:52 AM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    It's not irrelevant. I was merely pointing out he is going only slightly faster with A LOT more under the hood, (4x bigger motor and 2 turbos) thats to say why I am more impressed when I see Shepherd run more so than Rick. Personally that is.
    True, he is going slightly faster.... but then you have to factor in the weight advantage, as well. Look at it this way, running a single turbo will only hurt Rick Head, yet, running a twin turbo will only hurt Shepard. It's a balancing act, as I'm sure you're already well aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    Also, the picture of Rick's car was to point out how ridiculous it is to call that thing street "legal" as if it were some sort of street vehicle. Thanks for posting the pic, I still cant do it lol
    Last I checked, Rick's car is street legal. If you're talking EPA (emission's), I'm not too sure... but the car has everything on it that is required to run on the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    Again, Im not trying to start an argument at all so dont take it that way, more of what I said was a personal view.
    I would never take you're words the wrong way, as we're only discussing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by EE1983
    You're comparing Rick's car to Shep's car and they aren't even in the same classes.
    Exactly.... that is to say, Rick Heads's car "outclasses" John Shepard's car.

    Also note, I never really intended for this to wind up as a Head vs Shepard debate... I was simply pointing out that AWD does not necessarily have the advantage on the street. Head runs the times that he does on street radials, which are obviously legal for the street. If Shepard ever ran into Head on the street, well, you get the point.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    True, he is going slightly faster.... but then you have to factor in the weight advantage, as well. Look at it this way, running a single turbo will only hurt Rick Head, yet, running a twin turbo will only hurt Shepard. It's a balancing act, as I'm sure you're already well aware.



    Last I checked, Rick's car is street legal. If you're talking EPA (emission's), I'm not too sure... but the car has everything on it that is required to run on the street.



    I would never take you're words the wrong way, as we're only discussing here.



    Exactly.... that is to say, Rick Heads's car "outclasses" John Shepard's car.

    Also note, I never really intended for this to wind up as a Head vs Shepard debate... I was simply pointing out that AWD does not necessarily have the advantage on the street. Head runs the times that he does on street radials, which are obviously legal for the street. If Shepard ever ran into Head on the street, well, you get the point.
    Haha well said. I agree! I think some of the guys were basically just saying AWD is superior on the road UNLESS the RWD car is setup very well, which seems to be a rarity on the street around me anyways! A lot of the high HP cars around me (paticularly my friends 02 SS) dont hook for the life.

    He has slicks and thats a different story but when he is on his street tires he spins in 3rd! He is full bolt-on and head/cam package.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    Heh, maybe in you're neck of the woods.... but not in mine. I recently finished installing a set of Competition Cams (p/n CCA-101200), as well as a full 3" exhaust, and upgraded Turbo, into my friends 95-GSX Eclipse. He's been racing for years, just like me, and even with a DSM.chip, he barely broke into the 11's, trapping above 130mph.
    That is sad. 130mph should be solidly in the 10s. My 97 Eclipse GSX broke into the 11s running 116mph with a 16G! My best time so far is an 11.82@117.55mph with a 1.67 60-ft on the same tires I drive to work on every day (225/50R16 Kumho Ecsta MX).

    Tell him to get some better tires or just get someone in there that can actually drive the car.

    Check out: dsmtimes.org/times.php?Header_Type=AWD&Page=1dsmtimes

    Check out number 49. 10.5@130mph

    Number 53, Bruce Kwartler is a good friend of mine. 10.557@134.27 with a 1.58 60-ft in a street car. He is running BFG g-Force T/A drag radials.

    If you are a good driver, take your friend's car down the track. Like I said, 130mph should be solidly in the 10s with a good driver behind the wheel.

    Carefully inspect the quarter mile time of this street legal LS1, [/url] then carefully re-inspect it's trap speed. You will never, never, find any DSM run those times, while trapping that low....
    Uhh, did you read the quote at the start of the video that said he had to get off the throttle at the top end because the car got squirrely? That car probably traps in the high 120s or low 130s.

    Yeah, tell that to Rick Head and his infamous TT Camaro, as he wipes the floor with DSM hero John Shepard...
    Would he wipe the floor with Brent Rau in his 6.9 second Eclipse?

    Difficult to overcome? I'm running ladder bars, and Mickey Thompson ET Street Radials on my 86 Iroc, and traction couldn't be any better, on the street. I have yet to break loose in a street race, and I'm pulling close to 500 pound feet of torque.
    Whoohoo!
    Last edited by ShapeGSX; 12-08-2005 at 06:51 AM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    That is sad. 130mph should be solidly in the 10s.
    Yeah, uhh... I guess you're not too familiar with that Comp Cam grind, "ShapeGSX". Umm, uhh, he's running the stock tranny (which is absolutely horrible), stock gearing, then throw the stock everyting else into the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    My 97 Eclipse GSX broke into the 11s running 116mph with a 16G!
    Wait, hold on.... (Street Lethal takes a minute to get a few cart-wheels in), okay, I'm back.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    My best time so far is an 11.82@117.55mph with a 1.67 60-ft on the same tires I drive to work on every day (225/50R16 Kumho Ecsta MX).
    ... must be wonderful to be you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Tell him to get some better tires or just get someone in there that can actually drive the car.
    Yeah, maybe you can drive the car, and you can have you're girlfriend videotape it. Maybe she'll jump for joy like she did in the video when you ran mid 12's...

    ... Shape, there's a reason why rollbars are required for times below twelve seconds. You running a best of 11.82 isn't saying much on you're part.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Check out:
    No need. I can post numerous MPG's myself of street legal LS1's running in the 9's without even breaking a sweat. What's the point though...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Bruce Kwartler is a good friend of mine. 10.557@134.27 with a 1.58 60-ft in a street car. He is running BFG g-Force T/A drag radials.
    ... and?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Would he wipe the floor with Brent Rau in his 6.9 second Eclipse?


    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Whoohoo!
    This, coming from someone who hasn't even hit low elevens. You can post links to all those idiots you want, this still doesn't change the fact that you're car is slower than mine!
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 12-08-2005 at 06:16 PM.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Zboner's Avatar
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    hey my friends uncles aunt has a rocket ship that runs in the 2's, can you beat that ????

    well???

  13. #33
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zboner
    hey my friends uncles aunt has a rocket ship that runs in the 2's, can you beat that ????

    well???
    I think I got that beat (as he rips off his shirt, revealing a big "S"... and takes off faster than a speeding bullet).

  14. #34
    ShapeGSX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    Yeah, uhh... I guess you're not too familiar with that Comp Cam grind, "ShapeGSX". Umm, uhh, he's running the stock tranny (which is absolutely horrible), stock gearing, then throw the stock everyting else into the mix.
    I have a stock tranny, too? What's your point? You are basically saying that a car that is trapping in the 130s would be neck and neck with my car that traps 118mph in the 1/4mi. The stock gearing is fine. A car doesn't run 130mph with "stock everything else."

    ... must be wonderful to be you.
    Yep. Makes for a really fun daily driver!

    Yeah, maybe you can drive the car, and you can have you're girlfriend videotape it. Maybe she'll jump for joy like she did in the video when you ran mid 12's...
    Dude, my wife could get a 130mph car into the 10s.

    ... Shape, there's a reason why rollbars are required for times below twelve seconds. You running a best of 11.82 isn't saying much on you're part.
    Actually, its 11.499.

    I'm glad you italicized your spelling mistake.

    No need. I can post numerous MPG's myself of street legal LS1's running in the 9's without even breaking a sweat. What's the point though...
    The point is that a DSM running 130mph has the ability to run a 10.5 in the 1/4. But you were using your friend's "130mph" AWD DSM and a Corvette that hit its brakes and ran a 10.8 @ 108mph as the explanation why RWD is superior to AWD.

    "he barely broke into the 11's, trapping above 130mph.

    Carefully inspect the quarter mile time of this street legal LS1, then carefully re-inspect it's trap speed. You will never, never, find any DSM run those times, while trapping that low...."

    I've seen some weak arguments about RWD and AWD before, but that one has got to be one of the worst.

    RWD is definitely superior to AWD once you hit a certain level and start to do some serious traction mods.

    This, coming from someone who hasn't even hit low elevens. You can post links to all those idiots you want, this still doesn't change the fact that you're car is slower than mine!
    And this time you underlined it! Good for you!

    I'm not trying to hit low 11s in my daily driver. If I were, I'd swap on a turbo larger than a puny 16G and run a low 11. But I'm happy with where my car is right now.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Zboner's Avatar
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    thats all im hearing in this thread, run what ya got, and not your buddys car, lol

    and you know what i mean

  16. #36
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    I have a stock tranny, too? What's your point? You are basically saying that a car that is trapping in the 130s would be neck and neck with my car that traps 118mph in the 1/4mi. The stock gearing is fine. A car doesn't run 130mph with "stock everything else."
    Shape, get over yourself... and enough of this mental masturbation of your's. "Stock everything else", referring to the rest of the car that I didn't point out already, and yes, if you're "that" interested in such a good trap speed, but poor time, I'll ask him to autograph a picture for you.

    ... would this make ya happy, Shape? How about a lollipop, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Dude, my wife could get a 130mph car into the 10s.
    Driving an LS1? No question...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    Actually, its 11.499.
    Wow, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    I'm glad you italicized your spelling mistake.
    Did you just point towards the mispelling of a number?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    The point is that a DSM running 130mph has the ability to run a 10.5 in the 1/4. But you were using your friend's "130mph" AWD DSM and a Corvette that hit its brakes and ran a 10.8 @ 108mph as the explanation why RWD is superior to AWD.
    Heh, reminds me of a joke; What does a 700HP Import have in common with a 400HP F-Body?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    I've seen some weak arguments about RWD and AWD before, but that one has got to be one of the worst.
    Worst? Nah. Just embellishing on a little something known as torque. Don't worry though, it's a guy thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    RWD is definitely superior to AWD once you hit a certain level and start to do some serious traction mods.
    Glad you agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShapeGSX
    I'm not trying to hit low 11s in my daily driver. If I were, I'd swap on a turbo larger than a puny 16G and run a low 11. But I'm happy with where my car is right now.
    I'm glad, you're glad.
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 12-08-2005 at 07:42 PM.

  17. #37
    I like the way yew tawlk. Ric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    I think I got that beat (as he rips off his shirt, revealing a big "S"... and takes off faster than a speeding bullet).
    Oh, that's nothin... Chuck Norris can sprint to a .483 @ 27,081MPH on a pair of Converse All-Stars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal


    That's irrelevant though; GSX's, Supra's, STI's etc... can make much more power with a single turbo setup, as opposed to a twin....




    Most powerful Supra off the bottle on TO4R has twins.



    to4r.com/member.php?show=ken.henderson

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