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i ate my first snake

This is a discussion on i ate my first snake within the Kill Stories forums, part of the Racing Forums category; Originally Posted by preston1980 As far as the lawsuits go, I have read about people and groups suing Ford/SVT for ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by preston1980 View Post
    As far as the lawsuits go, I have read about people and groups suing Ford/SVT for the many differant problems with the 1999 Cobra, one being the horsepower. I am not 100% sure of the actuall lawsuit though. But it took alot of pressure to be put on Ford before they took action and recalled them for service.
    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...29db8ed006e3d8

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svt_cobra

    While the Cobra claimed 320 hp (239 kW), some magazines and owners contradicted it. 5.0 Mustangs and Super Fords claimed that it actually exceeded the torque rating, but didn't quite match the power rating. Ford responded to complaints by issuing a recall on 1999 model Cobras, which were given computer, intake, and exhaust improvements, to match the original claim of 320 hp. As a result, the Cobra production was halted in 2000 (except the limited Cobra R) while the company was developing new parts to regain the missing power. The changes were incorporated into the 2001 model and the Cobra can achieved 1/4 mile times in the lower to mid-13 second range.


    This article is saying the 99 Cobra was short on advertised horsepower, and the 01 cobra was faster, that was all I was saying. And I also know from experiance that any stock 98-02 TA or Camaro LS1 will beat a stock 99 Cobra by an average of a 5/10ths of a second in the quarter mile from all the research I have done. And that is what I consider "bad", a half sec in the quarter, which is like 4-5 car lengths. Most stock 99 Cobras are lucky to see a 13.9 sec. quarter, even with the free re-flash and upgrades that SVT gave later, they only saw a 13.7 -13.8 range.

    While the stock 01 models are getting around 13.6 range. A stock Maro or TA LS1 will run better than both of these cars (alot better than the 99) Even an auto LS1 vs the 5 speed Cobra will go to the LS1 every time. But most LS1's are seeing 300 rear wheel horsepower stock. This is because GM underated the engine stats, as to where Ford overrated the stats on the Cobra, see the differance is in the word: "Over" and "Under" 2 completly differant words.
    Which would explain why some stock SS Camaros have been tested in the 12's. Not the norm I know.

    And remember I own a Cobra, and have owned LS1's also, so I am not bias either way. Just going off experiance and internet/magazine research.
    20 more rwhp doesn't equate to 5 cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiteRiderWs6 View Post
    I geruntee you an LS1 Would "whip" a 99-01 cobra...."theres no replacement(4.6) for displacement (5.7)" ive taken out an 01 cobra when i was BONE STOCK...i dont know what town you live in where LS1's are in the 14's but around here where i live they are mid 11's with bolt ons to mid 13's stock.
    Have you ever been on a track. Some of yall judge a car by a street race. Take a bone stock F-body and a bonestock 99/01 Cobra and it aint going to "whip" it. It will beat it but it will be close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumped03 View Post
    20 more rwhp doesn't equate to 5 cars.
    I never said anything about 20 horsepower= 5 car lengths.
    I said a half sec win in the quarter is about 4-5 car lengths victory.

    Which is what a stock 98-02 TA/Maro will beat a stock 99 Cobra by. A average quarter mile time for the 99 Cobra is a 13.9 and an average F-body car runs a 13.4.

    I think the stock LS1 has around 40 more rear wheel horsepower than a stock 99 Cobra and about 25-30 more than a stock 01 Cobra. I have read that the 99 Cobra has around 300 horse at the crank, but rated at 320, overated. The 01 has around 320 at the crank, so the 01 Cobra was rated correctly, but the LS1 was underated, it actually has 350 at the crank, but was advertised at 310(Z28/TA)-325(SS/WS6). This has been backed up by many differant articles on the net and in car magazines. Just like the 390 horsepower the 03 Cobra was underated and really had around 425 at the crank.

    Also figure in the F- body cars weigh about the same as a 99/01 Cobra, but are lower geared than the Cobras. Also with a manual f-body you get 6 gears vs 5 with a cobra. And a 3.42:1 rear end vs a 3.27:1 Cobra rear end. Which both make a big differance in quarter mile times.

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    THE WS6 THAT COULD
    Quote Originally Posted by Pumped03 View Post
    Have you ever been on a track. Some of yall judge a car by a street race. Take a bone stock F-body and a bonestock 99/01 Cobra and it aint going to "whip" it. It will beat it but it will be close.
    and yes i have been to the track plenty of times....you keep talking about this 280 SAE Crap...you are taking the worst numbers of an LS1 in history and posting them..

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    old timer blue02Z's Avatar
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    soooooooo, anyway, what year do ya'll think it was being the rounder style-98-97?

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    Senior Member Musclefan21's Avatar
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    1997 Formula & 2003 cobra
    i eat 03/04 cobras in my stock 06 stang GT.. expecially whenever i am tired and sleep long..

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    Okie dokie. A few facts here.

    99 Cobra....was indeed recalled for being low on power. Not all were, but certainly enough to eventually get Ford's attention. With the recall performed, the RWHP of the 99 was essentially identical to that of the 01. As such, a 99 Cobra (with recall) = 01 Cobra in terms of RWHP. If the 99 has not had the recall, then it could be anywhere from zero to thirty RWHP down on what it is supposed to be.

    The average stock LS1 is going to beat the average stock 99/01 Cobra by probably 3-5 tenths in the 1/4 mile - but the variables are so numerous that putting an absolute number on it is not possible.

    Gearing...yes, F-bodies had a 3.42 vs 3.27, and 6 gears vs 5. However, that doesn't tell the entire tale. First, the fact that the F-body has 6 speeds means nothing in a contest of speed, simply because the 6 Speed simply adds an extra OD. Second, when considering gearing as it relates to acceleration, you have to consider the transmission gearing along with the rear gear (and tire size too, but for our purposes, they are close enough to consider it a non-issue). To figure out the overall gear differences between two cars, multiply the rear gear by the tranny gear. For example...

    Cobra 1st gear was 3.35. Multiply this by 3.27 for the overal gear ratio in 1st. 3.35 x 3.27 = 10.95

    F-Body 1st gear was 2.66. Multiply this by 3.42 for overall gear ratio nin 1st. 2.66 x 3.42 = 9.09

    Now - which car has the gearing advantage? If you did this for all 4 non-OD gears, you would see that the advantage for the Cobra is less in 2nd, and goes slightly to the F-body in 3rd and 4th.

    Both LS1s and DOHC 4.6 Cobras (N/A) have gone mid 11s with bolt-ons. Far more LS1s have done it - though the vast majority are A4 cars, which takes a lot of the skill factor out. It should be noted that GM makes an excellent performance A4. All Cobra's are manuals from the factory.

    There are several 99-04 GTs that have gotten into the 12s with bolt-ons. There are some that have gone mid 12's (with 240-260 RWHP), and the quickest are down in the 12.2-12.3 range. Believe it or not, there are even a handful of old 5.0 Fox Body Mustangs that have gone mid-high 12s with bolt-ons (220-240 RWHP).

    4.56s are too much gear for a stock-motored 2V GT.

    I agree with the "no replacement for displacement" as a general statement, and when it comes to the difference in power between an LS1 and a N/A 4V 4.6. However, rpm potential can make up for a lot of the difference, assuming one takes advantage of the extra rpm (think gearing).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post

    Gearing...yes, F-bodies had a 3.42 vs 3.27, and 6 gears vs 5. However, that doesn't tell the entire tale. First, the fact that the F-body has 6 speeds means nothing in a contest of speed, simply because the 6 Speed simply adds an extra OD. Second, when considering gearing as it relates to acceleration, you have to consider the transmission gearing along with the rear gear (and tire size too, but for our purposes, they are close enough to consider it a non-issue). To figure out the overall gear differences between two cars, multiply the rear gear by the tranny gear. For example...

    Cobra 1st gear was 3.35. Multiply this by 3.27 for the overal gear ratio in 1st. 3.35 x 3.27 = 10.95

    F-Body 1st gear was 2.66. Multiply this by 3.42 for overall gear ratio nin 1st. 2.66 x 3.42 = 9.09

    Now - which car has the gearing advantage? If you did this for all 4 non-OD gears, you would see that the advantage for the Cobra is less in 2nd, and goes slightly to the F-body in 3rd and 4th.
    okie dokie, some more facts to list.
    This statement is very true, 1st and second gear, the cobra is lower geared over all, and third and fourth goto the F-bodies. 2 a peice.

    BUT, one must take in to account the gap in between the gears which drops the engine down out of its power band. Example is the 6 speed tranny= 1st gear- 2.66:1 2nd-1.78:1 3rd- 1.30:1 4th- 1.00:1 5th- 0.74:1 6th 0.50:1
    5 speed cobra= 1st= 3.37:1 2nd= 1.99:1 3rd= 1.33:1 4th= 1.00:1 5th= 0.67:1

    2.66 minus 1.78= .88 drop from 1st to 2nd in LS1
    3.37 minus 1.99= 1.39 drop fro 1st to 2nd in Cobra
    same story from 2nd to 3rd and from 4th to 5th

    Now notice the differance between the gears are much more in the Cobra, now we all know, gears that are closer together keeps you in your power band. A 6 speed can afford to have the first 5 gears closer together because it has an extra overdrive gear, and can afford a lower rear end gear. As to where a 5 speed has to space out there gears more,and get a higher rear end gear. ***** Advantage = 6 speed *****

    Basicly the Cobra has a slight first gear advantage, after you shift past first the advantage goes to the LS1 more and more every single gear ther after.
    But the first gear advantage is over come by the 25 or so more rear wheel horsepower the LS1 has compared to the 01 Cobra. LS1= 297 rwhp (average stock rwhp dyno) 01- Cobra= 272 rwhp (average stock rwhp dyno)
    Not to mention the huge torque advantage (345 vs 317 at the crank) the ls1 has over the Cobras.

    Just read this article from Car and driver, comparing the 01 cobra to the 01 f-body.http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ang-cobra.html

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumped03 View Post
    This is my first pass after I installed the KB. I ran this GT in that pass. My ET was bad because I had to lift because I didn't have enough air in a new set of 17 inch ET Streets I was running.

    I don't judge a car by what most are running. I judge one by what the best driver can get out of it.

    Click for full size
    ohh wow!!!...yeah considering we were talkin bout bolt on gt's..not fuckin supercharged ones

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by preston1980 View Post
    okie dokie, some more facts to list.
    This statement is very true, 1st and second gear, the cobra is lower geared over all, and third and fourth goto the F-bodies. 2 a peice.

    BUT, one must take in to account the gap in between the gears which drops the engine down out of its power band. Example is the 6 speed tranny= 1st gear- 2.66:1 2nd-1.78:1 3rd- 1.30:1 4th- 1.00:1 5th- 0.74:1 6th 0.50:1
    5 speed cobra= 1st= 3.37:1 2nd= 1.99:1 3rd= 1.33:1 4th= 1.00:1 5th= 0.67:1

    2.66 minus 1.78= .88 drop from 1st to 2nd in LS1
    3.37 minus 1.99= 1.39 drop fro 1st to 2nd in Cobra
    same story from 2nd to 3rd and from 4th to 5th
    Concur for the most part. However, 3rd to 4th is virtually the same on both cars. 4th to 5th (or any other gear) is irrelevant, as most racers would never consider racing in an OD gear - certainly not in the 1/4 mile.

    Now notice the differance between the gears are much more in the Cobra, now we all know, gears that are closer together keeps you in your power band.
    Concur again. However, most of the time spent in a drag race is spent at the beginning of that race, hence the reason 60 ft is so important, and gearing to take advantage of that (assuming traction) becomes important.

    A 6 speed can afford to have the first 5 gears closer together because it has an extra overdrive gear, and can afford a lower rear end gear.
    Disagree. 5th and 6th are OD gears. You don't use OD gears in a drag race. If you're racing to some stupid high MPH, then perhaps. Not my cup of tea and I shall defer comment on that sort of racing.

    As to where a 5 speed has to space out there gears more,and get a higher rear end gear. ***** Advantage = 6 speed *****
    Actually, you meant to say lower gear, as 3.42s are lower than 3.27s, but I get the jist of what you are trying to say. However, and once again, I'm only referring to the non OD gears.

    While we're at it, the 99/01 Cobra were stupidly under-geared from the factory. Ford fixed that, somewhat, with the 03/04 Mach (3.55 gears and a .62 5th gear OD).

    Basicly the Cobra has a slight first gear advantage, after you shift past first the advantage goes to the LS1 more and more every single gear ther after.
    I don't see it quite that way, but we're splitting hairs now. Regardless, my point in bringing all this up was that you can't just look at the rear gear and decide that car A has a gearing advantage over car B. In this case, that just isn't the case.

    But the first gear advantage is over come by the 25 or so more rear wheel horsepower the LS1 has compared to the 01 Cobra. LS1= 297 rwhp (average stock rwhp dyno) 01- Cobra= 272 rwhp (average stock rwhp dyno)
    Not to mention the huge torque advantage (345 vs 317 at the crank) the ls1 has over the Cobras.
    Generally speaking, I agree - and I wasn't trying to say anything different.

    Torque....I could care less what the torque is.....until you multiply it by rpm. Of course, that is how you get HP.

    Just read this article from Car and driver, comparing the 01 cobra to the 01 f-body.http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ang-cobra.html
    I'm not much of a magazine racer, however, in reading that article you'll note that although the RWHP is indeed quite a bit less than the LS1 (as we have all known for many years), C&D got an identical ET - even with a lower MPH. Now how do you think that could happen?

    One more time though....I don't race magazines - just using your reference.

    BTW I had a new (actually, program car) 99 Cobra, had the recall done, did quite a bit of racing with it, etc, so I'm pretty familier with them. Also had a 99 T/A for a while.
    Last edited by BLKCLOUD; 01-02-2007 at 10:49 AM.

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    Every day is a gift-enjoy preston1980's Avatar
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    All good points, but 3rd and 4th gears being the same (or pretty close), the advantage goes to the LS1 because of lower rear end gears.

    And I did mean to say higher gears in the Cobra. 3.27:1 is a higher ratio than 3.42:1 (lower the number the higher the ratio aka higher number of teeth)

    Also, I dont think of 5th gear as an overdrive gear, I used 5th gear at the quarter mile track in my 93 TA, because I had 4.10:1 gears (it had a 0.80:1 5th gear, and a 3.36:1 1st gear, 2.07:1 2nd gear, which was unique only to the 93 LT1 t56 trannys). And sometimes people do race on into 5th gear in a street race, thats only around 130 or so in the LS1 cars. And the T56 6 speed has a 0.76:1 5th gear, thats only 0.24 less than 4th gear (25% higher ratio) so they (4th and 5th) are pretty close together in the LS cars. I say use it if you want to.

    Over all, the point I think we can agree on is: the 98-02 F-bodies (stock vs stock) will beat a 99/01 cobra.

    Any way, you sound like you are very knowledgable, I can appreciate that. welcome to the site. I hope you (blkcloud) will hang around past this thread.
    Last edited by preston1980; 01-02-2007 at 02:04 PM.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    5th gear is an "overdrive" in the T56 because the ratio is less than 1:1. There are trannies with 5th gears that are not overdriven. However, IMHO, the main reason 5th gear isn't good for drag racing is that 5th (and 6th in a T56) are not on the mainshaft, and it is impossible to power shift, and very difficult to shift with any real speed/authority.

    My main gripe against the T56 was always the 1st gear....with the very exception that you mentioned, the 93 F-body ratios.

    In the 03/04 Cobra, another gripe I had was that the Mustang-spec T56 didn't have the F-body OD gears (.80 & .62 vice .75 & .50).

    And finally, in any stock form, the T56 is a relatively slow shifting tranny.

    I've never done a highway race on the street fast enough to use anything over 4th (even with 4.56s in my 99 Cobra), so as I said above, I won't comment on highway racing at speeds of 130+.

    Yes, I agree that on average, and everything else being equal, a 98-02 F-body will beat a 99/01 Cobra.

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    Impounded I eat imports's Avatar
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    It was most likely a Gt or a V6 with cobra badges.

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    old timer blue02Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I eat imports View Post
    It was most likely a Gt or a V6 with cobra badges.
    well thanx for answering my question. but it had to be a nicely modded gt cuz i've run them before and they were way back there. no way could it have been a v6. i'm thinkin a '98????

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    Every day is a gift-enjoy preston1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue02Z View Post
    well thanx for answering my question. but it had to be a nicely modded gt cuz i've run them before and they were way back there. no way could it have been a v6. i'm thinkin a '98????
    It could have been a real Cobra, From 96-98 the Cobra only had 305 horsepower, with a dyno sheet showing 250 rwhp on average. So even a stock LS1 would walk away from a 98 Cobra with about a fifty rear wheel horse advantage.

    The 96-98 Cobras were 14 sec cars.
    14 sec quarter mile= SLOW

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    96-98 Cobras put down ~20 RWHP less than a 99/01 Cobra. However, they were also ~100 lbs lighter (mainly due to the IRS in the 99/01), and thus their performance was only a tick or two slower. It is/was not at all uncommon to see 96-98 Cobras run high 13s in bone stock trim. They occasionally went mid 13's. My wife had one for a while, and it went 13.6 @ 104 with absolutely nothing done to it. Friend of mine went 13.4 with his 98 on the exact same day. Typical? No. But possible.

    BTW...that 13.4 car dyno'd at 255 RWHP stock.

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    old timer blue02Z's Avatar
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    thanx preston and BLKCLOUD

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    Every day is a gift-enjoy preston1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    96-98 Cobras put down ~20 RWHP less than a 99/01 Cobra. However, they were also ~100 lbs lighter (mainly due to the IRS in the 99/01), and thus their performance was only a tick or two slower. It is/was not at all uncommon to see 96-98 Cobras run high 13s in bone stock trim. They occasionally went mid 13's. My wife had one for a while, and it went 13.6 @ 104 with absolutely nothing done to it. Friend of mine went 13.4 with his 98 on the exact same day. Typical? No. But possible.

    BTW...that 13.4 car dyno'd at 255 RWHP stock.
    All the stuf I read says the 96-98 Cobra is a 14 sec car. I guess you would know though, having owned one.
    In 1999, My friend had a 97 Cobra (4.6 DOHC 305 HP) and he went 14.2 (at 98 mph.) best time at our local track in Rogersville. The car only had 20k miles on it and he could drive pretty well. He added a 100 dry shot and it made all the differance. Than he totaled it 5 months later. But we had fun while it lasted.

    Also, I read that they are only 50 pounds lighter than a 99/01 Cobra. A 96-98 curb weight is (approx.) 3390 pounds, a 99/01 is (approx.) 3440 pounds.

    I do know they (96-98) shared the same rear end gear and tranny gears as the 99/01.

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    I like reading intelligent posts, with proper grammar. Having owned both vehicles, I can say the 01 Cobra did inspire confidence, I had no qualms about going down country roads driving like a bat out of hell, taking curves at a 100 plus, and bitch-slapping 140+mph on straightaways.

    The Z is all about respect, and it does not inspire confidence at high speeds, when the road gets curvy. But for dragstrip style runs, the LS1 just simply has more tire burning, get out of my way power.

    The main difference at high speeds? The Cobra felt like I was chilling on the couch, the Z feels like I am riding in my coffin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackz-lt1 View Post
    now when u say full bolt on's...u dont mean head/cammed, s/c, t/c, or sprayed 99-04 gt's..do u?? Because no 99-04 gt with just bolt ons...(intake, full exhaust, tune, dr's, gears) is gonna be runnin mid 12's

    try 11s, Ian Mullane runs 11s with a stock engined bolt on 2v GT.
    Quote Originally Posted by blue02Z View Post
    soooooooo, anyway, what year do ya'll think it was being the rounder style-98-97?
    Probably a 98 if you said it had rounded edges.

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