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Got Dominated by a Lex

This is a discussion on Got Dominated by a Lex within the Kill Stories forums, part of the Racing Forums category; Man...That's all I got to say...Pull up behind 02 Lexus Is 300..See hes got exhaust so I pull up next ...

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    Angry Got Dominated by a Lex

    Man...That's all I got to say...Pull up behind 02 Lexus Is 300..See hes got exhaust so I pull up next to him I rev it up and drop the clutch..the next thing i see is his car taking me about 20 car lengths. I got a 99 t/a ws6 ram air, headers, exhaust, programmer..not much else. I stop at the light that's when he tells me his got a turbo, running on 25 psi. I felt better knowing that. He's works for some tuner in Miami. We pulled up to a wal-mart and he showed me his whip. good stuff for an import. Definetely need to buy a supercharger, cant let this happen again.

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    did your car go up in smoke by dropping the clutch

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    So... basically you just raced a different bodied Supra w/ big single turbo.

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    pretty much

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burnws6 View Post
    Definetely need to buy a supercharger, cant let this happen again....
    I raced one once, and he was running similar boost pressure. Took him no problem with the LS1 setup in my sig. You won't need to go the S/C route to beat him, unless your really looking to as an excuse to get one. If you do, make damn sure it's a ProCharger....

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    what do you suggest I do

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burnws6
    what do you suggest I do
    Scrap the S/C idea for now, and whatever you do, don't get sucked into the concept of a very large camshaft (not needed). You already have headers and exhaust, but that handheld though, sooner or later, needs to go. When you've decided on a heads and cam combination, set your PCM back to it's original settings, sell that handheld tuner, and get yourself a custom tune. From there, it's all about proper gearing and weight reduction...

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    I'm not so sure you wont need some type of forced induction to handle a turbo'd lexus unless hes not pushing alot. I used to have a SC300 wit light mods but a bunch of my friends are pushing serious power. Shit my boss has a Turbo'd IS300 pushing close to 600whp. Heads, cams, gearing, and a tune will only get you so far man.

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HurricaneLS1
    Heads, cams, gearing, and a tune will only get you so far man....
    I heavily disagree. Maybe yester-year, but definitely not in today's world. I'm pushing well over four hundred, naturally aspirated, rear wheel horsepower, all through an automatic, no less. The difference, though, is the power under the curve. Peak numbers mean absolutely nothing....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    I heavily disagree. Maybe yester-year, but definitely not in today's world. I'm pushing well over four hundred, naturally aspirated, rear wheel horsepower, all through an automatic, no less. The difference, though, is the power under the curve. Peak numbers mean absolutely nothing....
    O, yeah, All those listed will make a very powerful car but I just ment they will only get him so far against the turbo'd Lexus IS300. 25psi on the 2JZ-ge is a crap load, then if he has the 2JZ-GTE engine, its game over for most domestics (or any one) that don't have FI unless they have one big shot of juice.

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    All depends on what engine he's boosting 25psi on. Lethal does have plenty of good points, though. The curve for any car is far more important than the peak numbers.

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    25 ps1 is huge even with intercoolers he probably has alchohol injection to cool it on top of that. you will have to drop a bundle to match it or move up to a 408. but why do it? keep your car fun. some one will always be faster.

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    Junior Member FEARSM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    I raced one once, and he was running similar boost pressure. Took him no problem with the LS1 setup in my sig. You won't need to go the S/C route to beat him, unless your really looking to as an excuse to get one. If you do, make damn sure it's a ProCharger....
    Boost pressure means nothing unless you know the engine and turbo that goes with that. 25 psi from a 60mm turbo is NOT the same as 25 psi from a 67mm, 72mm or higher turbo.

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    Boost pressure means nothing unless you know the engine and turbo that goes with that. 25 psi from a 60mm turbo is NOT the same as 25 psi from a 67mm, 72mm or higher turbo.
    The very same thing can be said in reference to torque... 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque peaking at 5000-RPM is NOT the same as averaging 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque under the entire curve....

    Definitely not saying that the Lexus that I ran that particular night was slow (I've seen, and raced some that will flat out fly), it just wasn't fast enough to hang with a high ten second LS1 that night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    The very same thing can be said in reference to torque... 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque peaking at 5000-RPM is NOT the same as averaging 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque under the entire curve....

    Definitely not saying that the Lexus that I ran that particular night was slow (I've seen, and raced some that will flat out fly), it just wasn't fast enough to hang with a high ten second LS1 that night.
    No..the same thing cant be said. On my stock twins 15 psi was about 360 rwhp. On the 71mm turbo I was running 15 psi was 500 rwhp. 400tq is 400tq no matter where it is in the powerband. Therefore you cant tell him what he does and does not need to beat the Lexus he was running because of you beating a Lexus at the same psi unless the setups for the 2 Lexus were identical.
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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM View Post
    No..the same thing cant be said.
    Yes, the very same anology can be used in reference to average torque (overall) vs peak torque (at a given RPM)...

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM View Post
    N400tq is 400tq no matter where it is in the powerband...
    That's where I'm afraid your wrong. A faster ramp rate, especially with increased lift, on a camshaft will maximize an engines torque production down low under the curve. "400tq is 400tq", yes, but exactly how long the power lasts for, overall (average) is the key...

    As for the rest of you argument, there's way too many variables. I haven't seen a street legal Lexus run sub eleven second times, and since my LS1 does, this should give what I have to say more than enough relevance to a fellow LS1 enthusiast, especially here on LS1.com...

    Thanks for sharing though.

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    Junior Member FEARSM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    Yes, the very same anology can be used in reference to average torque (overall) vs peak torque (at a given RPM)...



    That's where I'm afraid your wrong. A faster ramp rate, especially with increased lift, on a camshaft will maximize an engines torque production down low under the curve. "400tq is 400tq", yes, but exactly how long the power lasts for, overall (average) is the key...

    As for the rest of you argument, there's way too many variables. I haven't seen a street legal Lexus run sub eleven second times, and since my LS1 does, this should give what I have to say more than enough relevance to a fellow LS1 enthusiast, especially here on LS1.com...

    Thanks for sharing though.
    Huh? I wasnt talking about area under the curve I was talking boost. How do you know the HP levels are the same on both cars if all you know is that he was running 25 psi? I am not doubting you beat the Lexus your raced. What I am saying is that you dont KNOW that the Lexus he raced was on the same power level as the one you raced just from the 25 psi number. Plus, I have seen high 9 and low 10 sec Lexus so I dont see your point there either.

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM View Post
    Huh? I wasnt talking about area under the curve I was talking boost....
    I originally wrote;

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal
    The very same thing can be said in reference to torque, 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque peaking at 5000-RPM is NOT the same as averaging 400-ft pounds of rear wheel torque under the entire curve...
    You responded;

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    No..the same thing cant be said...

    ...400tq is 400tq no matter where it is in the powerband.
    I used the average vs peak power as an example, and you clearly called me on it, only to now say that you didn't? How can 400ft pounds be 400ft pounds, regardless "where" it is in the powerband? I agreed that at a given RPM yes, it's the same power. But my point was overall, the power differences (average vs peak) are more than significant...

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    How do you know the HP levels are the same on both cars if all you know is that he was running 25 psi?
    Did you read what I posted? I already implied that it is pointless to even argue, because there are way too many variables. Your trying to call me on the basis that I don't know the Lexus that he ran, at the same time forgetting that the Lexus in this story raped a practically stock LS1...?

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    [i][b]Plus, I have seen high 9 and low 10 sec Lexus so I dont see your point there either...
    That's irrelevant though, as I have seen seven second Gremlins here at raceway park. I'm not saying that Lexus' can't run the numbers (why would I say that), I'm saying that on the street, you don't come by too many, and I have yet to come by one...

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    Junior Member FEARSM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    I originally wrote;



    You responded;



    I used the average vs peak power as an example, and you clearly called me on it, only to now say that you didn't? How can 400ft pounds be 400ft pounds, regardless "where" it is in the powerband? I agreed that at a given RPM yes, it's the same power. But my point was overall, the power differences (average vs peak) are more than significant...



    Did you read what I posted? I already implied that it is pointless to even argue, because there are way too many variables. Your trying to call me on the basis that I don't know the Lexus that he ran, at the same time forgetting that the Lexus in this story raped a practically stock LS1...?



    That's irrelevant though, as I have seen seven second Gremlins here at raceway park. I'm not saying that Lexus' can't run the numbers (why would I say that), I'm saying that on the street, you don't come by too many, and I have yet to come by one...

    You took my quote out of context. If you read my entire post you should understand that 400 rwtg is 400rwtq period. You may have it sooner or later in the power band but its still 400 rwtq.. 25 psi is NOT the same unless the engine and turbo are the same. 25 psi on a 61mm will not make the same hp/tq as 25psi on a 72mm turbo. 25 psi on car with cams will not make the same hp/tq as 25 psi on a car WITHOUT cams. So the Lexus he was running could have been making alot more power than the one you were running. So how can you tell him he wouldnt need a supercharger when you have no clue how much horsepower the Lexus had?

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    If you read my entire post you should understand that 400 rwtg is 400rwtq period. You may have it sooner or later in the power band but its still 400 rwtq....
    I'm not taking your quote out of context, I'm pointing out the difference between average torque, vs peak. Who's arguing one engine "peaking" 400 foot pounds @ 4000 RPM, in comparison with another "peaking" @ 5000 RPM? You are! I'm arguing an entirely different concept, yet you still revert right back to an argument that's not even mine. Peak torque can be applied sooner than later, or vice versa (this is what you keep pointing out, yet I never argued this, nor do I see the relevance)....

    Average > Peak! That's what I'm arguing. Period, end of discussion. Doesn't matter "what" duration levels we're talking, two identicle engines, having identicle mods, sharing two identicle camshafts (albeit, with one having a faster ramp rate than the other, thus maximing power under the curve), the engine that maximizes power (AVERAGE POWER) will pull away from the one that "peaks" all day long. This is what I said, and this is what I'm saying...

    Let's move on to your real argument...

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    So the Lexus he was running could have been making alot more power than the one you were running....
    Maybe it was, and maybe it wasn't. Who's to say? Point is, it raped a stock LS1 by "twenty" (LMAO/sarcasm) car lengths. Now, most racers feel that a "tenth" is about a car length on the track. Assuming his stock LS1 is a mid thirteen second car (even with a decent driver, let's also question if the LS1 is stalled, or if an M6, knows how to shift), twenty seconds (which is clearly an embellishment, as well as speculation) would equate to two full seconds, placing the Lexus in the 11's...

    Quote Originally Posted by FEARSM
    So how can you tell him he wouldnt need a supercharger when you have no clue how much horsepower the Lexus had?
    Because he doesn't need a supercharger to get his naturally aspirated LS1 running low elevens...

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