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Foxbody vs. GTO LS2

This is a discussion on Foxbody vs. GTO LS2 within the Kill Stories forums, part of the Racing Forums category; Originally Posted by Chris Arnold Uh... the 331 had nothing to do with that point.... I was just "proving" my ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
    Uh... the 331 had nothing to do with that point.... I was just "proving" my last statement which was, "And if I had a fox, I'd take a 331 with a big turbo in an '87-'93 hatch model....."

    I feel that the point was proven, and on that issue, I was just being a smartass, anyway.

    As to your second issue, a 5.0 making 600 hp, I said that I thought it could be done, you don't think it can be. You're so closed-minded to it, that you actually have to see it to believe it. You can't use basic reasoning and deductive logic to realize the truth. You're the kind of guy that has to burn your hand on a stove before you know that you shouldn't touch it.

    I said I can show you a 347 that makes 750 hp. It turns out that it's actually a 357, but that doesn't change my point. That's about 2.1hp per cube. It is the same block, uses the same style of induction components that a 302 can, so why do you think a 302 can't make 2.1 hp/cid? If you can give me a justifiable reason why it can't, then I'll give you some credit. Otherwise, it just sounds to me like you've never been properly exposed. In fact, the geometry of a 302 rod:stroke, bore:stroke is to the 302's advantage in terms of revability and efficiency. If I thought you would/ could actually afford to pay me, I'd put my money where my mouth is, and build you a 600 hp 302ci n/a SBF. Short of that, I can't provide the hot stove for you at this point.

    600hp can be done from an n/a 302, like it or not. Here's the article for the 357 w/ 750 hp (and still climbing).

    And who the hell said that motor would be streetable. I believe that I said it wouldn't. That's not an understatement, it's a true statement.

    Here's the bottom line, he said it couldn't be done... He's wrong. Notice he didn't say anything about streetability, and neither did 2000T/A guru.

    Here's what it takes to make a SBF turn 2.1 hp/ci. If you can't read the article and then admit that a 302 will make 600hp with properly sized but similar components, you're dense.

    http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article117/A-P1.htm

    Chris
    You seem to not be getting it. The original topic was that a 302 cannot produce 600 rear-wheel horsepower. For some reason you keep coming at me with these SBF motors that are larger than 302 cubic-inches. We are NOT talking about 347's and 357's here - but 302's buddy. Got it? I know what SBF's are capable of. Trust me, i've come across many over the years (and spanked the majority ) No offense bud, but stick to the subject please!

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    I have seen plenty of lsx motors run 500-550rwhp which is around 600-650crank hp and still be very drivable, still get around 20mpg freeway. Thats all im saying.

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    Big power figures, in and of themselves, do not impress me. However, ANY engine capable of producing 4-digit power figures, within the constraints of straight 93 octane pump gas, does. I'm most amazed by how mild a set-up that engine is. There doesn't appear to be any high-dollar induction pieces, and the cam profile is very street friendly.

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    What kinda turbo setup does it have, for a turbo car you dont want a huge cam, I have seen tons of 600-1500rwhp setups that other than traction factor drive pretty nice, now im not gonna say they drive like a stock car, you have to factor in big power means big support mods. Like stage 4 clutchs dont fell like stock, solid tranny and motor mounts make things more difficult. Things like that but yes anything making 4 digit power that is streetable is a awesome machine, however we were talking about N/A 302s. I dont go into a conversation on war politics and talk about how cool hippies are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N20LT4 View Post
    You seem to not be getting it. The original topic was that a 302 cannot produce 600 rear-wheel horsepower. For some reason you keep coming at me with these SBF motors that are larger than 302 cubic-inches. We are NOT talking about 347's and 357's here - but 302's buddy. Got it? I know what SBF's are capable of. Trust me, i've come across many over the years (and spanked the majority ) No offense bud, but stick to the subject please!
    You're wrong again, and you should find something better to do with your time... No one said anything about any engine making 600 rwhp. First it was that a 302 could not make 500 rwhp. I was the one who first brought up the concept of a 302 making 600hp and at the crank not the rear. Why? Because a 302 that makes 600hp at the crank will make at least 500 at the rear tires. So it looks like you're the one who isn't getting it. Maybe you should reread the posts that led up to this point....slowly so you can comprehend.

    I'll say it again, if a 357 can make 750 hp at the crank, then a 302 can make 600. You clearly don't know what they're capable of, or you wouldn't have said that 500rwhp couldn't be made by a 302.

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    Well, I originally mentioned that motor for the amusement of Chris. As far as the 302 goes, when I had my 5.0s, I didn't consider a 331 or a 347 to be a "5.0," just as I don't consider a stroked 400-plus cube LSX to be a "5.7." Few people build stock displacement 5.0s anymore, because, unless they're racing in a class that limits displacement to 302 cubes, there's no point, considering how budget-friendly forged rotating stroker assemblies are. That being said, I can't understand why the notion of a n/a 600 flywheel hp, stock dispacement 302 is so unfathomable. Two hp/cubic is quite achievable. As I said in an earlier post, I believe it would require race fuel, a radical cam, and high rpms, but it's certainly attainable. It wouldn't be a "streetable" combo, persay, but the original poster never claimed it would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Stalker View Post
    Big power figures, in and of themselves, do not impress me. However, ANY engine capable of producing 4-digit power figures, within the constraints of straight 93 octane pump gas, does. I'm most amazed by how mild a set-up that engine is. There doesn't appear to be any high-dollar induction pieces, and the cam profile is very street friendly.

    Which combo are you referring to, mine or the one in the article? I think you're referring to the one in the article since I never disclosed my cam specs. It doesn't look street friendly to me. That's huge duration and lift for a 302, and it's a solid roller cam, with an expensive parker funnel-web intake, a dart racing block, and aluminum rods. This setup, though it might run on the street, is an all-out race mill. I like the cost, though. $7300 for a 750+ hp 8000+ rpm motor is a f'n steal.

    My combo, if that's what you're referring to, was meant to be a street combo will still have power steering, A/C, and a full interior. As mentioned by 2000T/A, cams for turbo cars are generally mild, and can't take advantage of exhaust scavenging so that have little or no overlap @ .050" lift. That makes their cams extremely street friendly, and the power that a turbo car can put out is more determined by how strong the internals are than the car's displacement. It's true that there is no replacement for displacement - a similarly built turbo car with more displacement will always make more power at the same boost than the smaller mill, but more often than not, the internals capabilities are maxed long before the turbo is. Don't expect your average LS2, or 408W to be capable of putting down the numbers that my lil 331 will with it's billet internals. While either of the other engines will make more at the same boost level, I'll be able to run much higher boost, and spin more rpm than they can.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2000T/A Guru View Post
    What kinda turbo setup does it have, for a turbo car you dont want a huge cam, I have seen tons of 600-1500rwhp setups that other than traction factor drive pretty nice, now im not gonna say they drive like a stock car, you have to factor in big power means big support mods. Like stage 4 clutchs dont fell like stock, solid tranny and motor mounts make things more difficult. Things like that but yes anything making 4 digit power that is streetable is a awesome machine, however we were talking about N/A 302s. I dont go into a conversation on war politics and talk about how cool hippies are.
    You must be referring to my combo...? It's an HP kit with a GT42R-76mm Precision turbo. The LSA on that cam is only 112, and I don't want to go into details about it for Ed Curtis' sake, but it'll be barely noticeable... Now if there were only some way to deaden the sound of the turb and the loud weldon 2025A. Then I might be able to surprise a few people.

    My stage 3 clutch is "streetable," and it's sprung. Stage 4s aren't, but I've heard great things about the streetability of the 1500+ hp Mcleod twin disks. What's harder than finding a streetable clutch is finding a streetable manual tranny to go in with it. The TKO600 doesn't stand a chance. T56s have been snapped like twigs. There's one called a Rockland Tranzilla that might work. G-force makes a couple that they claim will get the job done. I haven't made my decision, but I might end up with a fully prepped auto.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
    Which combo are you referring to, mine or the one in the article?
    Actually, I was neither referring to your combo, nor the one in the article you posted. I was referring you to an article in the June '07 issue of MM & FF, regarding a stroked and supercharged Windsor that eclipsed 1,000 hp on an engine dyno at 6,000 rpm, with relatively mild off-the-shelf parts, and on 93-octane pump gas. It was interesting reading.
    Last edited by mrr23; 11-15-2007 at 06:40 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Stalker View Post
    Actually, I was neither referring to your combo, nor the one in the article you posted. I was referring you to an article in the June '07 issue of MM & FF, regarding a stroked and supercharged Windsor that eclipsed 1,000 hp on an engine dyno at 6,000 rpm, with relatively mild off-the-shelf parts, and on 93-octane pump gas. It was interesting reading.
    I'll take a look at that one, now that you mention it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Stalker View Post
    Well, I originally mentioned that motor for the amusement of Chris. As far as the 302 goes, when I had my 5.0s, I didn't consider a 331 or a 347 to be a "5.0," just as I don't consider a stroked 400-plus cube LSX to be a "5.7." Few people build stock displacement 5.0s anymore, because, unless they're racing in a class that limits displacement to 302 cubes, there's no point, considering how budget-friendly forged rotating stroker assemblies are. That being said, I can't understand why the notion of a n/a 600 flywheel hp, stock dispacement 302 is so unfathomable. Two hp/cubic is quite achievable. As I said in an earlier post, I believe it would require race fuel, a radical cam, and high rpms, but it's certainly attainable. It wouldn't be a "streetable" combo, persay, but the original poster never claimed it would be.
    I don't consider a stroker a 5.0 either. Hell, I don't even consider a 5.0 a 5.0 since they're really closer to 4.9. I looked for the 4.9 badges to put on my fox when it was a twin-turbo 302, but then just decided to leave 'em off.

    Your second point was one I made earlier and agree with wholeheartedly: noone except class racer's or engine builder competitions that limit displacement is going to try to make that much power from a 302 when they could have even more from a budget stroker. Eagle sells extremely affordable 4 digit power capable forged SBF Windsor internals. So, not to bring you into my irritated quarrel with N20LT4, but I don't have anything to prove to him. I just hate to see a bad case of ignorance and arrogance come in the same person.
    Last edited by mrr23; 11-15-2007 at 06:40 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight Stalker View Post
    That was an interesting article, but I somehow missed it in my magazine. I've been a MM & FF subscriber since my 5.0 days in the 90s. In the June '07 issue, there's an article about a stroked and blown Windsor that made 1,043 hp and 913.0 torque at 6,000 rpm.....on 93 octane, using off-the-shelf parts. Good stuff.

    I actually had a Keith Craft Racing Engines 331 a few years ago. I was going for maximum street power and durability at the time, with FI. R302 block, billet crank, Oliver rods, well-worked Brodix heads. It was built to run on 93 octane, and I spared no expense on it, and built it to the hilt as far as durability goes. Expensive engine, but a good one. I never got to drop it in the car, though. While my car was parked in front of my house, a drunk totalled it with his pickup.
    Forgive the multiple posts, but I guess I was so interested in the idiot's comments that I missed yours...

    That's pretty crazy, actually. Your combo looks extremely close to the way I built mine. Billet crank, oliver rods, AFR205s in my case. It's all about durability and low maintenance, which is why I stuck with hydraulic rollers. It will should turn 7000rpm all-day long. What'd you do with all of the parts?

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    The car wasn't even parked on the street. The guy drove over the curb and creamed it. While I was still trying to decide which body style to buy as a replacement, a guy who had heard about my combo(and my dilemma) through a mutual friend, approached me about purchasing it. After he saw the spec sheet, he offered me what I had in it. Since I had no car to put it in anyways, I agreed to sell. I still sometimes wish I hadn't. The car had a Tremec TKO at the time, but I had planned on converting to an auto. Lentech said they could build an AOD for me that would hold the power, but other people were telling me to go with a C4. I was planning on completely redoing the car, chassis-wise, suspension-wise. You know, the typical things that must be done when adding that much power. It would have been a real nice package. Best of luck with your project. What type of power are you looking for?

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    Jesus Christ, are you my alter ego?

    It's 8.5:1, I've got a Tremec TKO. I've talked to Lentech and they said that it could handle the power, but others have told me that they've been broken with similar power. We talked about building an AODE with a 3 disc locking convertor. TH400s and Powerglides have been recommended.

    I think I can make at least 700 rwhp with a manual on pump at 14-15 psi. The GT42-76 with a more restrictive turbine A/R has put down over 1000 to the wheels through a manual. I also know a guy who ran 8.7@154 with the exact same turbo I have. He said he only saw something like 850 rwhp through his TH400. Both were also running 331s.

    Chris

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    Oh, and do you know anything about 160th Army Aviation? Just wondering about your screen name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
    You're wrong again, and you should find something better to do with your time... No one said anything about any engine making 600 rwhp. First it was that a 302 could not make 500 rwhp. I was the one who first brought up the concept of a 302 making 600hp and at the crank not the rear. Why? Because a 302 that makes 600hp at the crank will make at least 500 at the rear tires. So it looks like you're the one who isn't getting it. Maybe you should reread the posts that led up to this point....slowly so you can comprehend.

    I'll say it again, if a 357 can make 750 hp at the crank, then a 302 can make 600. You clearly don't know what they're capable of, or you wouldn't have said that 500rwhp couldn't be made by a 302.
    O.K., so maybe the subject didn't seem important enough for me to read it through thoroughly. 600 instead of 500 - my fault. I was going off of another comment that lead me to believe we were talking rear-wheel. Anyways, I wouldn't doubt that a race headed 302 with race heads, a "strip-inspired" intake setup, and a solid roller cam could put those numbers up. Never seen it done, probably because it would be extremely impracticle, but nonetheless it can probably be done.

    Funny though, considering my close friend "Cayenne97" who is a member of this site, made almost 460rwhp on his LT1 with only 185cc heads, a stock street/strip ported LT1 intake (by Advanced Induction), and a mild solid roller street grind with the stock 350 cubic-inches. That's just one of 15 LTx cars I can name in the Western states that produce 450 and up with the stock 350.

    You may not believe that I know much about SBF's, but one thing I do know is those are the kind of naturally-aspirated numbers a 302-cubed motor could only dream about - or "stroke" about, get it?

    Jay (aka MR. LT1)

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    Sorry I got pissed off about it. I take shit to seriously sometimes.

    Those are pretty impressive numbers for a streetable n/a combo at 350 c.i.

    Chris

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    CAnt you feel the love

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
    Sorry I got pissed off about it. I take shit to seriously sometimes.

    Those are pretty impressive numbers for a streetable n/a combo at 350 c.i.

    Chris
    Oh, no offense. We all get a little "revved" up from time to time!

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    Wow all this becasue I post a kill for a friend of mine lol

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