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Evo running 10.9

This is a discussion on Evo running 10.9 within the Kill Stories forums, part of the Racing Forums category; I have no issues with your explanation, and have seen that before (especially the F=ma part ). However, that doesn't ...

  1. #41
    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    I have no issues with your explanation, and have seen that before (especially the F=ma part ). However, that doesn't explain the constant percentage of power that a driveline will eat up. Yes, I need more force to accelerate a given piece of the drivetrain faster, and I have it. And it most of it gets to the wheels.

    I understand completely that AWD takes more power to run than RWD or FWD. No issues at all with that.

    Concur on friction, though I would argue you will have more if you are spinning the motor higher (common when significantly increasing HP in N/A cars).

    I also agree with you that lighter parts should, theoretically, show an increase on a chassis dyno. However, my testing has shown otherwise. When I was class racing, we dyno'd (chassis) lighter flywheels, lighter pressure plates, lighter wheels, lighter driveshafts, etc, and have never seen any measurable, repeatable differences in RWHP.

    What I'd like to see are two comparisons of engine vs chassis dyno:

    - First comparison is at X HP at the flywheel vs X-d HP at the rear wheels, resulting in a difference between the two, expressed as an absolute value and a percentage.

    - Second comparison is Y HP at the flywheel vs Y-d HP at the rear wheels, resulting in a difference between the two, expressed as an absolute value and a percentage.

    Where X is any reasonable flywheel HP number (say, 250-400), Y is a significantly higher flywheel HP from performance upgrades (significant = 50+ HP), and -d is RWHP.

    I've seen the first comparison, but not the same motor modified to make more HP then run through the same engine/chassis dyno with the same driveline.

    Bob

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    http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...o+brake+rotors

    here is a reasonable example. swapped out brake rotors on a dyno before and after results. the car made more HP and torque.... dynos were 1 hour apart, same dyno same tune same car.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. I've never seen 14 lbs worth of savings make that much HP (my testing shows virtually none for similar items), but every car and every dyno is different. That said, it would be necessary to see if engine coolant temps, oil temps, and air intake temps were the same on the runs too.

    FYI....I used to be an Operational Test Director, and these sorts of controls are pretty standard stuff for us, but rarely done by the average enthusiast (me included) when rolling the dyno.

    But again - interesting info, and I do appreciate it.

    Bob

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    Member krusemj's Avatar
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    I guess I dont have to worry about it anymore. The Evo spun a rod last night. My car is now back to being the fastest in my course.
    “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evokevin
    http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...o+brake+rotors

    here is a reasonable example. swapped out brake rotors on a dyno before and after results. the car made more HP and torque.... dynos were 1 hour apart, same dyno same tune same car.
    Very interesting Kevin....

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    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redegal View Post
    Just curious, how does everthing else stock (like transmission, transfer case, Differentials/axles ect.) hold up on those EVO'S with that kind of HP or do you have to upgrade?
    Some people are more lucky than others. EE claims to have no problems with the power he's making, yet other guys have blown transmissions and transfer cases bone stock. Just depends on how you drive it, lots of RPM's + AWD traction = things breaking. CV shafts blow out all the time on modified japanese cars, its a common thing for them really. Its a less than optimal design, and if you've ever seen an Evo trans or transfer case out of the car, you'd wonder how the hell it holds more than 100lb/ft based on its small size.

    I've always found just about all Mitsubishis to be junk, due hard Evo fans will disagree rabidly though.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    Some people are more lucky than others. EE claims to have no problems with the power he's making, yet other guys have blown transmissions and transfer cases bone stock.
    sounds like our 10 bolts.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    Some people are more lucky than others. EE claims to have no problems with the power he's making, yet other guys have blown transmissions and transfer cases bone stock. Just depends on how you drive it, lots of RPM's + AWD traction = things breaking. CV shafts blow out all the time on modified japanese cars, its a common thing for them really. Its a less than optimal design, and if you've ever seen an Evo trans or transfer case out of the car, you'd wonder how the hell it holds more than 100lb/ft based on its small size.

    I've always found just about all Mitsubishis to be junk, due hard Evo fans will disagree rabidly though.

    I made a comment about the transfer cases and transmissions, paticularly in the 2003s which in my opinion are completely unreliable. It was the first year the car came out and there was problems. Period.

    IF DRIVEN PROPERLY, the 04-06 drivetrains are solid, believe me. I have at least 100-150 launches on my car at 6000rpm. If you know how to launch, and maintain the car properly, the drivetrain is more than adequate.

    Hell, Turbotrix's 800whp drag EVO is on the ORIGINAL transfer case. They launch at 8000rpm with slicks. If they havent broken theres, yet you are breaking yous with 225whp, something is wrong! BTW, the transmission CASE is small, the parts inside are actually quite thick and strong. If they werent, guys with the high HP cars (700-900) wouldnt be able to run aruond with stock drivetrains like some do. Also, CV shafts NEVER break in Mitsubishis. The axles are huge. That is a Honda problem, dont get the two confused. I broke both my front axles in my Honda Accord while commuting up the Parkway ha.

    I actually do regard OLDER Mitsubishi's (pre 2002) to be unrealiable and I would never buy one.

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Never met a transmission I couldn't break at the racetrack.

    Bob

  10. #50
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    This is true when it all comes down to it they are all breakable, ive seen built trannys break, where i have seen some stock trannys with jsut a clutch hold up for longer, sometimes shit just breaks. Hell i saw a 12 bolt break on my buddys car 2 months after he got it with 4.10s and his 10 bolt held up for the whole previous summer with no problems on the same hp and both had 4.10s in it. Both with street tires. This has nothing to do with this thread but my friend matts rx7 broke the rear end all 4 times we took it to the track, he says he will never go back lol. He can launch forever on the street but at the track with his drag tires, broke it 4 times. It is a 550rwhp rx7

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    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    314 RWHP, 3450 lb car, drag radials. All in a 6 month period. There was one more that wasn't in that pic (total of 5). 3 broke on the 3/4 shift, 2 on the 2/3 shift. 3 different transmissions. 2 different clutches. Also welded one of the trannies into 4th gear during the same period.

    Tremec needed to build a better trans.

  12. #52
    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    314 RWHP, 3450 lb car, drag radials. All in a 6 month period. There was one more that wasn't in that pic (total of 5). 3 broke on the 3/4 shift, 2 on the 2/3 shift. 3 different transmissions. 2 different clutches. Also welded one of the trannies into 4th gear during the same period.

    Tremec needed to build a better trans.
    Sounds like your buddy has some issues.

    The T56 is a solid transmission overall. People are modding the new Shelby GT500 and running 9's with 700WHP on a bone stock T56.

  13. #53
    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    That wasn't my buddy - that was me. My 'issue' is that I was pretty serious about my drag racing.

    The GT500 doesn't use a T56, though I will agree it is a good tranny overall (didn't like the way my 04 Cobra T56 shifted though....too notchy). Also, to the best of my knowledge, the only "people" that are running 9's with the GT500 is Evolution Performance. How "bone stock" that tranny is is up for debate, given their less-than-stellar record for telling what mods the car has (or has had).

  14. #54
    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krusemj View Post
    I guess I dont have to worry about it anymore. The Evo spun a rod last night. My car is now back to being the fastest in my course.
    So much for the "bulletproof" 4G63

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    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    That wasn't my buddy - that was me. My 'issue' is that I was pretty serious about my drag racing.

    The GT500 doesn't use a T56, though I will agree it is a good tranny overall (didn't like the way my 04 Cobra T56 shifted though....too notchy). Also, to the best of my knowledge, the only "people" that are running 9's with the GT500 is Evolution Performance. How "bone stock" that tranny is is up for debate, given their less-than-stellar record for telling what mods the car has (or has had).
    I don't know how the hell you drive, but thats ridiculous. There are plenty of guys running 400+WHP on stock internal T56's with no problem.

    T56 Rebuilds has a fully built T56 running 8's and 9's, powershifting the whole way down the track without any issues. Its a strong transmission in stock form, and it can be built up even stronger.

  16. #56
    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    I don't know how the hell you drive, but thats ridiculous. There are plenty of guys running 400+WHP on stock internal T56's with no problem.

    T56 Rebuilds has a fully built T56 running 8's and 9's, powershifting the whole way down the track without any issues. Its a strong transmission in stock form, and it can be built up even stronger.
    welp judging from a few of bobs videos, staging, holding, and launching at 5500 rpms or around there may have something to do with it.

    and i know the old codger is dropping the hammer hard!!! go get em bob!


    anyway i agree about the tremec. i have really beat on mine and to date have had no ill effects, atleast none that have presented themselves.

    my issue is purely clutch related and the hydraulics and the pedal float. i hate the feeling of the pedal under WOT shifts, and i never powershift.
    i really dont know anything at all about the internals of the t56 other than reading things from joe hunneycutt of t56 rebuilds. sounds like when properly built they are pretty darn tough..

  17. #57
    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesman View Post
    I don't know how the hell you drive, but thats ridiculous.
    I drive to win championships. Didn't do it in 2001 (which was the year I had all that carnage), but I did in 2004 (with only 2 broken trannies).

    Tremec (actually TTC) has been good to me . They helped me out a lot when I broke (free input shafts), and worked with me for the entire 2002 season (including donating a 'worked' TKO to try, along with tech support/advice anytime I needed it). They make a good tranny. But they're not unbreakable when pushed hard.

    When racing, I push them hard.

    Bob

  18. #58
    The Bandit Wesman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLKCLOUD View Post
    I drive to win championships. Didn't do it in 2001 (which was the year I had all that carnage), but I did in 2004 (with only 2 broken trannies).

    Tremec (actually TTC) has been good to me . They helped me out a lot when I broke (free input shafts), and worked with me for the entire 2002 season (including donating a 'worked' TKO to try, along with tech support/advice anytime I needed it). They make a good tranny. But they're not unbreakable when pushed hard.

    When racing, I push them hard.

    Bob
    Maybe you should get a job in R&D for a transmission company, a couple of your passes down the track would determine if the thing will hold up or not

  19. #59
    Senior Member BLKCLOUD's Avatar
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    Tremec helps racers....the racers tell them what breaks. In return, TTC helps the racers. And the racers tell them what breaks.

    That's one reason that Tremec is so involved with Ford Drag Racing (specifically, NMRA). Of course, few serious racers use the T56, 3650, T45, T5. I like to think that's one reason they helped me - because I was using an average Joe's tranny. Till I went to the G-Force T5 in the middle of the 2004 season.

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