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WS6 vs non

This is a discussion on WS6 vs non within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; I have a quick question. Do the 98-02 ws6 cars dyno more than the non ws6 cars? I was told ...

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    WS6 vs non

    I have a quick question. Do the 98-02 ws6 cars dyno more than the non ws6 cars? I was told an ls1 is an ls1 reguardless of year or model they all dyno 300-320 w/6 speed and 290-310 with the a4. I also read while the 01-02 models have the LS6, they also have a slightly smaller cam to keep power at the same level. What is your input?

    Thx,
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike0202 View Post
    I have a quick question. Do the 98-02 ws6 cars dyno more than the non ws6 cars? I was told an ls1 is an ls1 reguardless of year or model they all dyno 300-320 w/6 speed and 290-310 with the a4. I also read while the 01-02 models have the LS6, they also have a slightly smaller cam to keep power at the same level. What is your input?

    Thx,
    Mike
    yes a ls1 is a ls1. 350-360crank hp. Its hard to compare dyno numbers unless its from the same dyno on the same day. People think just because a dyno tells you you make this much power thats how it is. WRONG there are factors a shop could enter into there dyno to make you number higher or lower. You see it all the time with import shops, they will inflate you numbers too make there tunes seem the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike0202 View Post
    I have a quick question. Do the 98-02 ws6 cars dyno more than the non ws6 cars? I was told an ls1 is an ls1 reguardless of year or model they all dyno 300-320 w/6 speed and 290-310 with the a4. I also read while the 01-02 models have the LS6, they also have a slightly smaller cam to keep power at the same level. What is your input?

    Thx,
    Mike
    Everything you were told is correct and as far as Dyno numbers Zinergy explained that perfectly.

    Bottom line an LS1 is an LS1.

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    yeah the dyno numbers are the same the WS6, the suspension is different (only a little) and the ring and pinion gears (don't know specific specs), that is what makes it slightly faster and of course the WS6 hood witch really dose nothing else than get some cool air in the engine the ram air dose not actually work until like 230MPH (or something like that i know it is above 200MPH) so the hood is just for show. Just thought i would add this i hope it helps some.

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    all post are right the only other thing is the air box is taller on the ws6 ram air and most of what make a ws6 a ws6 you will replace if you mod the car. most if not all my ws6 parts a upgraded by now or will be sone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike0202 View Post
    I also read while the 01-02 models have the LS6, they also have a slightly smaller cam to keep power at the same level.
    No F-Body's got the LS6 from the factory.

    Some of them did get the LS6 block, but none came with the LS6 heads or LS6 cam. Power numbers will still be roughly the same.
    2001 and 2002 do have the LS6 intake in stock form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    No F-Body's got the LS6 from the factory.

    Some of them did get the LS6 block, but none came with the LS6 heads or LS6 cam. Power numbers will still be roughly the same.
    2001 and 2002 do have the LS6 intake in stock form.
    I should have been more specific. I meant 01-02's came with the ls6 intake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Customta98 View Post
    yeah the dyno numbers are the same the WS6, the suspension is different (only a little) and the ring and pinion gears (don't know specific specs), that is what makes it slightly faster and of course the WS6 hood witch really dose nothing else than get some cool air in the engine the ram air dose not actually work until like 230MPH (or something like that i know it is above 200MPH) so the hood is just for show. Just thought i would add this i hope it helps some.
    i actually wanted to test the difference between the two trans am hoods and i went to the track for each and the ws6 ram air hood made a few tenths quicker of a run. plus i knew after the install, my bark into 2nd gear was a lot stronger so I wouldnt say it was completely useless other than looks.

    Track Conditions were very similar each day, High 80s, Same tires, Low humidity, the mileage around 160,000 range, even the same intake box.
    My reaction times and 60ft were very consistent

    Flat T/A hood's best run was 13.8

    WS6 Ram Air Hood best run was 13.6

    Its not much but it definately made a difference in my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by n.m.racer View Post
    i actually wanted to test the difference between the two trans am hoods and i went to the track for each and the ws6 ram air hood made a few tenths quicker of a run. plus i knew after the install, my bark into 2nd gear was a lot stronger so I wouldnt say it was completely useless other than looks.

    Track Conditions were very similar each day, High 80s, Same tires, Low humidity, the mileage around 160,000 range, even the same intake box.
    My reaction times and 60ft were very consistent

    Flat T/A hood's best run was 13.8

    WS6 Ram Air Hood best run was 13.6

    Its not much but it definately made a difference in my opinion
    No it doesnt make a difference. Its not even a sealed intake system, and if you were using the same intake system as a non-ws6 then the all the air is doing is entering you engine bay its not even going into your intake. Its been tested before. .2 on a different day is not a rare thing to have happen and proves nothing.

    Since you still had the stock intake system that takes air in from the bottom and not though the hood scoops then by your theory if i take my whole hood off i should run alot faster?
    Last edited by Zinergy; 06-25-2009 at 08:41 AM.

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    Junior Member n.m.racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinergy View Post
    No it doesnt make a difference. Its not even a sealed intake system, and if you were using the same intake system as a non-ws6 then the all the air is doing is entering you engine bay its not even going into your intake. Its been tested before. .2 on a different day is not a rare thing to have happen and proves nothing.

    Since you still had the stock intake system that takes air in from the bottom and not though the hood scoops then by your theory if i take my whole hood off i should run alot faster?
    So your stating on a natural aspirated combustion engine the "suck" stoke doesnt cause the engine to breath? Air doesnt need to be forced into the filter. The engine will breathe air into itself from the easiest way of travel with the least turbulence. Trust me, the car would never hit a 13.6 before, now its consistent. What freakish power gains did it gain with the addition of mileage and wear?

    The camaros ram air is pointless because it is further up, But the ws6 is located at the tip of where air breaks, so when the engine is sucking, itll get the air charge through those two vents. Cowl induction works the same way, instead of getting air from the front of the hood, it sucks it off the winshield.
    Cowl induction systems were sealed from the factory whereas ours are not. But the air/division is at the easiest point of entry on that hood, the very tip. Take the factory baffles out and theres virtually nothing stopping forced air into coming into the hood. If you got a non-functional after market hood that isnt cut for the openings then yea... It might be "just for looks"

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    Quote Originally Posted by n.m.racer View Post
    So your stating on a natural aspirated combustion engine the "suck" stoke doesnt cause the engine to breath? Air doesnt need to be forced into the filter. The engine will breathe air into itself from the easiest way of travel with the least turbulence. Trust me, the car would never hit a 13.6 before, now its consistent. What freakish power gains did it gain with the addition of mileage and wear?

    The camaros ram air is pointless because it is further up, But the ws6 is located at the tip of where air breaks, so when the engine is sucking, itll get the air charge through those two vents. Cowl induction works the same way, instead of getting air from the front of the hood, it sucks it off the winshield.
    Cowl induction systems were sealed from the factory whereas ours are not. But the air/division is at the easiest point of entry on that hood, the very tip. Take the factory baffles out and theres virtually nothing stopping forced air into coming into the hood. If you got a non-functional after market hood that isnt cut for the openings then yea... It might be "just for looks"
    Tell me how this sucks in air through the scoops when the lid is sealed to the intake that takes in air from the bottom. Now i could see possibly a volant system getting a little more power at higher speeds because it has open cone filters but lids like this connects to to a slot that lets air in and in no way could suck air through the scoops


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    Quote Originally Posted by n.m.racer View Post
    So your stating on a natural aspirated combustion engine the "suck" stoke doesnt cause the engine to breath? Air doesnt need to be forced into the filter. The engine will breathe air into itself from the easiest way of travel with the least turbulence. Trust me, the car would never hit a 13.6 before, now its consistent. What freakish power gains did it gain with the addition of mileage and wear?

    The camaros ram air is pointless because it is further up, But the ws6 is located at the tip of where air breaks, so when the engine is sucking, itll get the air charge through those two vents. Cowl induction works the same way, instead of getting air from the front of the hood, it sucks it off the winshield.
    Cowl induction systems were sealed from the factory whereas ours are not. But the air/division is at the easiest point of entry on that hood, the very tip. Take the factory baffles out and theres virtually nothing stopping forced air into coming into the hood. If you got a non-functional after market hood that isnt cut for the openings then yea... It might be "just for looks"
    The increse you had was more than likely from the cooler air comeing in not the ram air, let me explain the 1LE Trans Am hood dose not really breath too well and when you add the Ram Air hood it lets in cooler air from outside the engine bay hense it is like adding a cool air intake you can gain a littel bit of power but in no way dose it Ram Air into your engine that was all i was trying to explain. But thanx for posting that its nice to see the difference the hood can make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinergy View Post
    Tell me how this sucks in air through the scoops when the lid is sealed to the intake that takes in air from the bottom. Now i could see possibly a volant system getting a little more power at higher speeds because it has open cone filters but lids like this connects to to a slot that lets air in and in no way could suck air through the scoops

    Click for full size
    That picture was nice enough to stop right the air box and not show the gap difference between regular ws9 t/a and ws6's. But anyways the air is coming through the hood regardless, I tried explaining about how easily it will be pushed into the nostrils due to their placement of where there is air division. But the ws6 box benefits more than the stock ws9 box because of the 1-2 inch difference in height. Anyways if the air will be pushed in and with the "suck" of the engine occuring, there is more available air. Just because the factory box sits downward over the radiator doesnt mean it cant suck air in from the front.

    Have a friend rev your engine and place your hand flush against the box but not underneath and space your fingers. Youll feel air flow between them. That proves the engine will suck air in from any available area without turbulence

    If the hood didnt make any difference then why didnt GM Engineers mount the box flush against the radiator support if all the air is brought in under the car? Why did they allow the ws6 box to have an extra 1-2 inches in height over the stocker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by n.m.racer View Post
    That picture was nice enough to stop right the air box and not show the gap difference between regular ws9 t/a and ws6's. But anyways the air is coming through the hood regardless, I tried explaining about how easily it will be pushed into the nostrils due to their placement of where there is air division. But the ws6 box benefits more than the stock ws9 box because of the 1-2 inch difference in height. Anyways if the air will be pushed in and with the "suck" of the engine occuring, there is more available air. Just because the factory box sits downward over the radiator doesnt mean it cant suck air in from the front.

    Have a friend rev your engine and place your hand flush against the box but not underneath and space your fingers. Youll feel air flow between them. That proves the engine will suck air in from any available area without turbulence

    If the hood didnt make any difference then why didnt GM Engineers mount the box flush against the radiator support if all the air is brought in under the car? Why did they allow the ws6 box to have an extra 1-2 inches in height over the stocker?
    Because they wanted people to believe they were getting 20more hp if they bought the WS6. Just like they wanted people to believe the corvette had 25hp more than the WS6 with mind you NO ram air lol, why wouldnt gm have designed a ram air system for the vette if it actually worked? Or the GTO, or the g8 gt? Both those cars have scoops but they arent functional.

    I used to race my friend in my moms 3.8liter grand am when he would drive his moms 3.8liter grand am with ram air. They said the ram air had like 20more hp or something but everytime we raced the races were almost dead even with whoever got the slight jump edging the other out. Ram air on a GM car is just there to make you feel cooler than the guy who doesnt have it.
    Last edited by Zinergy; 06-25-2009 at 11:25 AM.

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    Junior Member n.m.racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinergy View Post
    Because they wanted people to believe they were getting 20more hp if they bought the WS6. Just like they wanted people to believe the corvette had 25hp more than the WS6 with mind you NO ram air lol, why wouldnt gm have designed a ram air system for the vette if it actually worked?

    I used to race my friend in my moms 3.8liter grand am when he would drive his moms 3.8liter grand am with ram air. They said the ram air had like 20more hp or something but everytime we raced the races were almost dead even with whoever got the slight jump edging the other out. Ram air on a GM car is just there to make you feel cooler than the guy who doesnt have it.
    I agree 100% on the grand am ram air and almost every other gm vehicle's ram air hood being non functional. NO big difference whatsoever. I agree the 20hp differences is very stretched. I also driven a 3.4 Grand Am Gt in different years and one with the ram air hood... I believe all claim to be ram air tho... but anyways all cars felt indentical. I looked under the hoods on all of them and I noticed on the supposed ram air hood led to nothing, completely looks, no journals and routing anywhere. The ram air box is actually the same in all of them i believe... but its located through the grill inserts between the headlights, and the box is so restricted it would never have enough compression to suck through it.

    Gm definately tricked people with the ram air advertisement on many vehicles. Especially on lower models that werent meant to perform hard. Its easy to trick a cheaper uneducated buyer into thinking a cheaper car can be cooler with appearel. Give a 16 year old a body kit equiped Cobalt LS and he'll think he owns the street. But its hard to trick buyers in a heavy racing background as in higher performance pontiacs that can tell how a car functions and make it faster. PLus the car is way more expensive. I definately think the 98-02 LS platform F-bodys had some of the best gm engineering ever. Same with the C5 and C6 Vettes. Though people may not like the looks as much as the older ones, but base to base theyll own any other from the past in performace and handling.

    The Ls1 dynos around 350hp, in any platform. But gm used tried to calculate a little more difference between the vette's and f-body's. How would you feel if you had a corvette and a firebird matched your horsepower from the factory. Id want more numbers from the more money I had to pay too. But Gm calculated differences in more efficient exhaust flow, intake set-ups, and different computer adjustments. May not be right on the nose rwhp, but definately makes corvette owners happier lol.

    But overall I think the gm engineers knew what they were doing with that hood. They knew itd probably be the last pontiac f-body ever to run so they might as well make the ram air finally functional after 30 years.

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    I own a Grand MA GT....
    With or without the 'ram air' hood on those cars it doesn't matter. Air comes in the front clip, not the hood either way.
    Slow either way as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    I own a Grand MA GT....
    With or without the 'ram air' hood on those cars it doesn't matter. Air comes in the front clip, not the hood either way.
    Slow either way as well.
    I know but we were 16, and we would still whoop on the civic kids and then tell them my moms car just beat yours, some street racer you are. They would usually say yeah but its your moms car, then i would get my 79 malibu and tony would get his 240 and we would beat them even worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n.m.racer View Post
    i actually wanted to test the difference between the two trans am hoods and i went to the track for each and the ws6 ram air hood made a few tenths quicker of a run. plus i knew after the install, my bark into 2nd gear was a lot stronger so I wouldnt say it was completely useless other than looks.

    Track Conditions were very similar each day, High 80s, Same tires, Low humidity, the mileage around 160,000 range, even the same intake box.
    My reaction times and 60ft were very consistent

    Flat T/A hood's best run was 13.8

    WS6 Ram Air Hood best run was 13.6

    Its not much but it definately made a difference in my opinion
    Not that I am discounting your findings here but E.T. is only part of the story.
    If the Ram Air Hood was actually working then the MPH would have increased aswell. Unfortunetely you haven't listed the mph for either run.

    And it is proven many times on this board (and others) that the `98-up WS6's Ram Air hood and lower Airbox add little no power. The only thing I will admit that it does is help provide cooler air to the intake. BUT if you remove the baffles and seal the hood to the box creating a true ram air system you might gain 3 HP at 100+ mph.

    BTW guys the `99-04 Grand Am GT's all have Ram Air and it only added an advertised 5 HP 175 HP vs the standard cars 170.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinergy View Post
    I know but we were 16, and we would still whoop on the civic kids and then tell them my moms car just beat yours, some street racer you are. They would usually say yeah but its your moms car, then i would get my 79 malibu and tony would get his 240 and we would beat them even worse.
    I'm 30....and still sport the Grand Ma GT.
    Granted, it has always been mine.

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