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Quick question...

This is a discussion on Quick question... within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; I'll say it Again Dyno's Are tools. Dyno Numbers can be manipulated and all Dyno's are not created equal. I ...

  1. #61
    Member VTR99's Avatar
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    I'll say it Again Dyno's Are tools. Dyno Numbers can be manipulated and all Dyno's are not created equal. I have to agree with Shady on this one most differences on a dyno can be attributed to build tolerances. In case you haven't heard all LS1's regardless of chassis make approx 345-350 HP. Trap Speed is what determines real world HP.
    Cause the more powerfull car (Dyno Queen) is not always the fastest in a Drag Race.
    As for your Springs To my Knowledge NO Factory Spring was Red in Color even the GM 1LE springs were Black. Maybe your cars Original Owner had some Dealer installed options IDK.
    And most of the people on here have been around these cars along time. Not to say you or Mr. Hamburger are liar's or anything it's just that in my 9 years of owning and researching about LS1 F-bodies this is the first I've heard of any SLP devolpment work for the WS6.
    My point is the WS6 package changed little from `98-`02
    And any changes would of been documented on here or other boards. I myself have looked a countless examples through the years and except for what I posted earlier about the exhaust (98 SOTL) and the springs(`01-2) the only other change to the package was the different Speedline wheels for late `01 and all `02 cars.

    I have no problem looking at this objectively so post some pics of your car so the rest of us can see what you are talking about.
    I have been building and restoring muscle cars since the early 70's. Most of these were big block Mopars, but I also had some early Trans Ams, a 79' TA, and some Z28s. I spent most of my summers at St. Louis International, and spent quite a few hours on one of the few dynos in the area at the time. As I said, all things being equal it is a very precision tool, and can give very precise information when making changes. I'm not talking about manipulating numbers, I'm specifically addressing the ability to compare engine output under the same conditions (temp, fuel, and so on). I would be the first to agree that the only thing that counts at the drag strip is ET, and MPH. In many cases though this does not tell the story as well as the dyno. My last Cuda was putting out over 800hp on the bottle, but track times were not as impressive (high 10s no NOS, and low 10s on the bottle) as street times. Most of us know that regardless of the slicks you are running, a car will hookup much better on concrete that on a layer of hot rubber. At the track even with racing slicks you could not put the hammer down until the car was in second gear and up to speed. Even at 70 mph you could fry the tires.

    For the record I do appreciate your candid response, and any objective info you can provide. I purchased my car from the original owner who did absolutely no mods, and the documentation is complete with the exception of when and where the WS6 mods listed on the window sticker and door were done. Here are a couple photos of the front and rear springs.


    Attachment 14076

    Attachment 14077

  2. #62
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Navy Blue Metallic
    `98 Formula M6 HdTp

    Quote Originally Posted by VTR99 View Post
    I have been building and restoring muscle cars since the early 70's. Most of these were big block Mopars, but I also had some early Trans Ams, a 79' TA, and some Z28s. I spent most of my summers at St. Louis International, and spent quite a few hours on one of the few dynos in the area at the time. As I said, all things being equal it is a very precision tool, and can give very precise information when making changes. I'm not talking about manipulating numbers, I'm specifically addressing the ability to compare engine output under the same conditions (temp, fuel, and so on). I would be the first to agree that the only thing that counts at the drag strip is ET, and MPH. In many cases though this does not tell the story as well as the dyno. My last Cuda was putting out over 800hp on the bottle, but track times were not as impressive (high 10s no NOS, and low 10s on the bottle) as street times. Most of us know that regardless of the slicks you are running, a car will hookup much better on concrete that on a layer of hot rubber. At the track even with racing slicks you could not put the hammer down until the car was in second gear and up to speed. Even at 70 mph you could fry the tires.

    For the record I do appreciate your candid response, and any objective info you can provide. I purchased my car from the original owner who did absolutely no mods, and the documentation is complete with the exception of when and where the WS6 mods listed on the window sticker and door were done. Here are a couple photos of the front and rear springs.


    Attachment 14076

    Attachment 14077
    I can appreciate were your coming from, I am somewhat of a muscle car afficianado myself. between me and my ffriends we had 2 late 70's Camaro's and 5 Trans Am's of the same vintage. My Brother currently has a Six Pack 4spd`70 GTX. I agree about using the dyno for comparing same vehicle before and after mods, thats what is should be used for. But like you said that does not always translate to the street or the track. Lke the saying goes ''all the power in the world don't mean much if you can't get it to the ground''. My first experience at the track with my LS1 was quite interesting to say the least I couldn't beleive how slick the track was. I know my car always felt faster on the Street.

    Your Springs don't look like factory springs to me, But like I said before I can only comment about what I've seen before. I'm not even sure what aftermarket company powdercoats their springs in red but I'm sure somebody on here would know.
    This makes me curious, I'll have to do a little research and maybe I can dig some thing up. Other wise you need to find out whatever Dealer info you can.
    Getting the PHS info might help.
    No hard feelings on my part man, I am always about getting and giving out good info. I just like to get my facts right and help others with theirs.
    Craig
    Semi Retired Street Racer
    2012 Lava Red Mustang GT Coupe Brembo/3.73's
    Build Date 3/17/11, Last Lava Red GT

    Gone but not forgoten
    NBM `98 Formula M6 HdTp
    1 of 1 Build Date 3/12/98

  3. #63
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Just got off the phone with my buddy,
    He has a `01 WS6 T/A with every option except TCS and his springs are Black. I sent a PM to another guy with an `02 WS6 hopefully I hear from him soon.

  4. #64
    Member VTR99's Avatar
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    Just got off the phone with my buddy,
    He has a `01 WS6 T/A with every option except TCS and his springs are Black. I sent a PM to another guy with an `02 WS6 hopefully I hear from him soon.
    I thought the red springs were unusual when I first looked at the car, and asked the seller about them. He was a fairly older guy, and sure didn't look like the street racer type. The Carfax checked out, and showed everything from his original registration, and subsequent registrations with him putting about 2000 miles a year on it. As he told me, there would be no reason for him to upgrade the car. I know in the pictures it looks dirty underneath, because they are building a bunch of new homes around us and it's impossible to keep it clean. The interior looks like no one ever sat in it. Anyway, thanks for any light you can shed on this.

  5. #65
    Member VTR99's Avatar
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    Just got off the phone with my buddy,
    He has a `01 WS6 T/A with every option except TCS and his springs are Black. I sent a PM to another guy with an `02 WS6 hopefully I hear from him soon.
    Thinking about the springs is making me wonder about the exhaust... It sounds much louder than my Avalanche with a Corsa catback. Sure looks stock with the 2 standard single chrome tips, but it's 4 times louder than my 99' TA. It also seems to have more of a cam lope, and from what I understand these cars are supposed to have less cam than the 99's.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTR99 View Post
    Thinking about the springs is making me wonder about the exhaust... It sounds much louder than my Avalanche with a Corsa catback. Sure looks stock with the 2 standard single chrome tips, but it's 4 times louder than my 99' TA. It also seems to have more of a cam lope, and from what I understand these cars are supposed to have less cam than the 99's.
    If you get a chance post up a pic of your exhaust.

  7. #67
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    If you get a chance post up a pic of your exhaust.
    Sure looks stock to me, but damn is that sucker loud! I even checked the entire system for exhaust leaks because I couldn't believe a factory exhaust should be that noisy.

  8. #68
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    Yeah thats stock alright
    Does the car have headers or even an aftermarket Y pipe cause that could make it louder also ?

  9. #69
    Member 02WS6dream's Avatar
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    08 Mustang GT/CS Blue
    2002 Trans Am WS6 traded

    for what its worth...02 WS6--black springs. and curious-what are 1le springs?? are you saying springs on 01+ ws6 are not upgraded?

  10. #70
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    Yeah thats stock alright
    Does the car have headers or even an aftermarket Y pipe cause that could make it louder also ?
    It for sure has the stock manifolds. I didn't think to look at the Y pipe, but I bet it's stock too. I mean it's not obnoxiously loud, but it's louder that my Avalanche with a Corsa, and I get a lot of comments on the sound of my Avalanche.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTR99 View Post
    It for sure has the stock manifolds. I didn't think to look at the Y pipe, but I bet it's stock too. I mean it's not obnoxiously loud, but it's louder that my Avalanche with a Corsa, and I get a lot of comments on the sound of my Avalanche.
    The stock Y will be flattened out under the driver seat
    If it still has the stock Y pipe then I'm at a lose as to why it's so loud, unless maybe the cats have been hollowed out or something.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02WS6dream View Post
    for what its worth...02 WS6--black springs. and curious-what are 1le springs?? are you saying springs on 01+ ws6 are not upgraded?
    1LE springs are the upgrade for the `98-`00 WS6's they were also part of th 1LE autocross package available on 6spd Formula's from `98-`00.
    And yes AFAIK the `01-02 WS6's have the same springs as a regular T/A or Formula.

  13. #73
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    Red
    2002 TA WS6

    The stock Y will be flattened out under the driver seat
    If it still has the stock Y pipe then I'm at a lose as to why it's so loud, unless maybe the cats have been hollowed out or something.
    The Y pipe looks stock, but the car is definitely louder than other WS6 cars. The cats look stock, and don't appear to ever have been removed. My car only has 11,000 miles, so I doubt if the cats are deteriorated enough to make it sound louder.

    After some checking, it looks like I have these springs...
    http://www.lmperformance.com/1857/1.html

    I did notice my car seems to sit a bit lower than stock, and definitely has a much stiffer ride than other WS6 cars I have driven. The first thing that seemed strange was I had to use the smaller of 2 floor jacks I own just to get under the car. I compared it to another 01' car and mine sits about an inch lower. The seller still swears nothing was changed.

  14. #74
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    Pewter
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTR99 View Post
    Thinking about the springs is making me wonder about the exhaust... It sounds much louder than my Avalanche with a Corsa catback. Sure looks stock with the 2 standard single chrome tips, but it's 4 times louder than my 99' TA. It also seems to have more of a cam lope, and from what I understand these cars are supposed to have less cam than the 99's.

    Now I know where I've seen that red TA....Atlanta Motor Speedway!

    Seriously, I had a '99 non-WS6 and I can tell you that my '02 is louder, has more cam lope, and drives stiffer/firmer. Mine has no mods, either.

  15. #75
    Member VTR99's Avatar
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    Now I know where I've seen that red TA....Atlanta Motor Speedway!

    Seriously, I had a '99 non-WS6 and I can tell you that my '02 is louder, has more cam lope, and drives stiffer/firmer. Mine has no mods, either.
    Just curious, but what color are your springs? Mine are red, and everyone says they should be black.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTR99 View Post
    Just curious, but what color are your springs? Mine are red, and everyone says they should be black.

    That's the first time I ever crawled under my car at 3AM to check a part's color. I have black springs. Is it possible that GM had a parts shortage on the line one week thus the red springs? Otherwise, congrats on buying that low rider with a racing cam and exhaust mods!

  17. #77
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    2002 TA WS6

    That's the first time I ever crawled under my car at 3AM to check a part's color. I have black springs. Is it possible that GM had a parts shortage on the line one week thus the red springs? Otherwise, congrats on buying that low rider with a racing cam and exhaust mods!
    As 9T8W66 suggested, I'm thinking it must have been a dealer installed option or something special that happened when they did the WS6 conversion. For some reason they don't show up on the invoice, or sticker. In any case I'm positive the original owner didn't do any mods. As for the exhaust I'm also inclined to agree with 9T8W66's theory (in a way)about the cats. On our way home we had a check engine light come on, and it turned out the code was a P0420, Bank 1 converter problem. The dealer wanted to install a new cat, but I was hesitant to let them hack on my new baby. I installed a new post converter O2 sensor and the problem seemed to go away.... The problem has returned, and after reading the new thread on the converter problem, the loud exhaust seems explained. I suspect these cars put out enough thrust to blow out the converters. Especially considering my car came from the most northern part of the USA, had only short trips, and probably never heated the converters enough to dry out all the condensation. If you watch that video where everone is asking what are those particles coming out of the exhaust? I suspect parts of a deteriorating catalytic converter!

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