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  1. #1
    Member Since 1998 Mecinoid's Avatar
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    '98,'00-B 93,03,11,14-V

    LS1 vs Old School

    I was looking at some 67-73 Camaros and Firebirds online for sale and I just don't get it.

    First you should understand I'm in the process of building a 9 second Camaro that I bought for $7500 with trailer a few years back. When done I'll have a 800HP Beast. Previously, only 650HP.

    I actually, like the LS1 Firebird looks and performance stock to stock but the you can buy one for under 10K these days and a restored '68 Camaro is getting over $30K. Seems kinda backwards to me.

    You think down the road we'll be able to get $40-50K for our F-Bodies?

    I mean what's the draw on the 67-73? No smoging??? That doesn't make sense because people are selling them for 30K with rust and non-matching numbers. So of the so-so restores imo for close to $60K aren't going to be as nice as what I'm going to build for a fraction.

    I just don't get it. Enlighten me .....

    Oh, for your view pleasure the build I'm on now:

    Car 10.23 quarter:



    Old motor:



    A 327 5spd we were playing with:



    New motor and build:





    Maybe I'll sell it for a $100K by the time I'm done..... Who knows ???

    Guess I should throw in my LS1 for comparision:






  2. #2
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Navy Blue Metallic
    `98 Formula M6 HdTp

    Owning an old car is more about reliving past glory and having something that not everyone else has. Yes newer cars do everthing much better but it's not always about that. My personal analogy is that Old cars are Raw and new cars are Refined.
    Someday our cars may bring those high dollar prices but not in my lifetime.
    Craig
    Semi Retired Street Racer
    2012 Lava Red Mustang GT Coupe Brembo/3.73's
    Build Date 3/17/11, Last Lava Red GT

    Gone but not forgoten
    NBM `98 Formula M6 HdTp
    1 of 1 Build Date 3/12/98

  3. #3
    Member Speed Psychosis's Avatar
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    Red
    98 T/A M6 w/lid and LM1

    Yes are cars will be worth a lot, especially if they are the last Camaro/Firebirds ever built. It doesn't look like they are bringing them back anytime soon and dealerships are already asking $30k+ for low mileage (like 10k) WS6 trans ams. I don't know if they are selling for that much but thats whats being asked.

  4. #4
    Sarge for AAG Emperor hutch1999's Avatar
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    06 HD Softail
    1998 Trans Am m6

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Psychosis View Post
    Yes are cars will be worth a lot, especially if they are the last Camaro/Firebirds ever built. It doesn't look like they are bringing them back anytime soon and dealerships are already asking $30k+ for low mileage (like 10k) WS6 trans ams. I don't know if they are selling for that much but thats whats being asked.
    Ive never seen that anywhere around here. You can get low mileage WS6s for under $25. Where ever your located at your getting fucked.

  5. #5
    Just me Y2KPewterSS's Avatar
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    Pewter metallic
    2000 Camaro SS

    The drawing point of 1st and 2nd gen fbodies is rarity, 4th gens are not rare. 4th gens will never equal the value of 1st gens either.
    CCW SP 500s 18x10 275/35 18x11 295/35
    SLP CME with GMMG style catback
    Painted manta stripe

    Quote Originally Posted by konigandy6 View Post
    I'd rather be bi than full homo!!!!

  6. #6
    Member Speed Psychosis's Avatar
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    Red
    98 T/A M6 w/lid and LM1

    ^ they also aren't rare because they are newer. not many have broken down yet. in 40 years, they will be rare. especially the firehawk.

  7. #7
    Senior Member raynor139's Avatar
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    Pewter
    2002 Trans Am WS6 M6

    You also gotta look at numbers there were alot less 1st and 2nd gens built then 4th gen trans ams or camaros and you dont really have the iconic cars nowadays like you used to in the prime of muscle car mania. Higher numbers and less cars being turned into celebrities like the bandit trans am result in less demand for them. Also my ws6 was 19,900 at 16k miles and that was high for the area that im in unlucky for me i dealt with car max and they wont bargain with you but 30,000 thats a bit excessive there is a 9,567 mile ws6 for sale a couple of towns over from me and they only want 24,000 for it and thats through a car collecter. Another thing to consider is the engines that come in these there were alot of variety back then today everyone of the 4 gens came with the same engine, so you have no rarieties to drive demand either. Best we got is the CETA and not alot people are in love with them.

  8. #8
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Navy Blue Metallic
    `98 Formula M6 HdTp

    1st and 2nd gen cars are by no means rare hell they made more 2nd gen cars then 3rd and 4th gens combined. 1979 Firebird production was around 250,000 cars. That's more then 3 years of Total late 4th gen production and that was only the Firebirds.

    A car is only worth what some idiot is willing to pay. Now what if he's got Millions ? ...................See my point
    Barret Jackson has ruined the Hobby for the regular man.

  9. #9
    Senior Member raynor139's Avatar
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    Pewter
    2002 Trans Am WS6 M6

    [QUOTE=9T8W66;1229523]1st and 2nd gen cars are by no means rare hell they made more 2nd gen cars then 3rd and 4th gens combined. 1979 Firebird production was around 250,000 cars. That's more then 3 years of Total late 4th gen production and that was only the Firebirds.QUOTE]

    Sorry guess you cant trust everything you read on the net

  10. #10
    I see Yello and I like it 02cetransam's Avatar
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    yellow
    02 Collector Trans Am

    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    1st and 2nd gen cars are by no means rare hell they made more 2nd gen cars then 3rd and 4th gens combined. 1979 Firebird production was around 250,000 cars. That's more then 3 years of Total late 4th gen production and that was only the Firebirds.

    A car is only worth what some idiot is willing to pay. Now what if he's got Millions ? ...................See my point
    Barret Jackson has ruined the Hobby for the regular man.
    I hope you were being silly? No way they made 250 000 1979 firebird. You may want to check other sources.

  11. #11
    I see Yello and I like it 02cetransam's Avatar
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    yellow
    02 Collector Trans Am

    Production figures for the '02 model year

    2002 marked the final year of production for the Firebird. Below is a sampling of that final year's production numbers, as well as examples of some of the year's rarest option combinations.

    2002 OVERALL PRODUCTION
    Firebird coupe 8,423
    Firebird convertible 1,498
    Formula coupe 901
    Trans Am coupe 3,962
    Trans Am convertible 998
    Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air* 12,212
    Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air* 2,696
    Total 30,690

    * Includes Collector Edition

    2002 COLLECTOR EDITION
    Collector Edition cpe. w/6-speed manual trans.842
    Collector Edition cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans.506
    Collector Edition cony. w/6-speed manual trans.554
    Collector Edition conv. w/4-speed auto. trans.488
    Total 2,390

    2002 TRANS AM
    Trans Am cpe. w/6-speed manual trans. 1,591
    Trans Am cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans. 2,371
    Trans Am cony. w/6-speed manual trans. 235
    Trans Am conv. w/4-speed auto. trans. 763
    Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air, 6-speed trans. 6,828
    Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air, 4-speed auto. 5,384
    Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air, 6-speed trans. 1,176
    Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air, 4-speed auto. 1,520

    2002 NHRA PACKAGE (RPO 1SH)
    Formula w/6-speed manual trans. 62
    Formula w/4-speed auto. trans. 85
    Trans Am cpe. w/6-speed manual trans. 136
    Trans Am cpe. w/4-speed auto. trans. 189
    Trans Am conv. w/5-speed manual trans. 16
    Trans Am cony. w/4-speed auto. trans. 46
    Total 534

    2002 EXTERIOR COLORS (all models)
    Arctic White 2,918
    Pewter Metallic 4,302
    Bright Silver Metallic 3,089
    Navy Blue Metallic 3,290
    Black 7,572
    Maple Red Metallic 867
    Collector Yellow 2,390
    Sunset Orange Metallic 1,208
    Bright Red 5,053

    2002 CONVERTIBLE TOP COLORS (all models)
    White 137
    Black 4,455
    Taupe 600

    2002 OPTIONS
    Firebirds with T-top Hatch Roof (all models)23,648
    Hurst shifter (6-speed trans. only) 9,194
    12-disc CD changer (all models) 5,934
    Traction Control (all models) 16,837
    Monsoon stereo 23,964

    2002 RARE COMBINATIONS
    Trans Am convertibles painted Maple Red Metallic 9
    Firebird convertibles built with White top 34
    Trans Am convertibles built with White top 11
    Formula w/6-speed and chrome 16-in. wheels 170
    Ram Air convertible w/6-speed
    and Camel leather interior 14

  12. #12
    I see Yello and I like it 02cetransam's Avatar
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    yellow
    02 Collector Trans Am

    A total of 30,690 Firebirds were built for worldwide distribution..
    Sold orders (ordered by customer specifically) 4,454
    Fleet orders 721

    5,192 were Convertible models

    23,648 had CC1 Removable Roof Panels

    26,391 had FE9 Federal Emissions System
    2,018 had NG1 Northeast Emissions System
    2,269 had YF5 California Emissions System

    20,769 had the LS1 Gen III V8 Engine (67.7%)
    9,921 had the L36 3800 Series V6 (32.3%)

    16,837 had NW9 Traction Control (54.9%)
    5,934 had U1S 12 Disc CD changer (19.3%)

    14,908 had the WS6 Ram Air Package (48.6%)

    1,500 had the WU6 Firehawk Package (4.9%)

    2,391 had the Z15 Collector Package (7.8%)


    Convertible Top Colors:

    10T White 137 units
    41T Black 4,455 units
    56T Taupe 600 units


    Total Firebird Color Breakdown:

    10U White 2,918 9.5%
    11U Pewter 4,302 14.0%
    13U Silver 3,089 10.1%
    28U Dk Blue 3,290 10.7%
    41U Black 7,572 24.7%
    44U Maple 867 2.8%
    54U C/E Yellow 2,391 7.8%
    71U S.O.M. 1,208 3.9%
    81U Red 5,053 16.5%

    Interior Breakdown:

    19B Ebony Cloth 7,378 24.0%
    192 Ebony Leath 14,832 48.3%
    194 C/E Leather 2,391 7.8%
    52B Taupe Cloth 1,078 3.5%
    522 Taupe Leather 2,230 7.3%


    FIREBIRD V6 COUPE 8,423 units (11.6% of production)

    1,000 units had MM5 Manual transmission (11.9%)
    7,423 units had MX0 Automatic Transmission (88.1%)

    2,567 units had NW9 Traction control (30.5%)
    7,375 had FE9 Emissions (87.6%)
    425 had NG1 Emissions (5.0%)
    619 had YF5 Emissions (7.3%)

    6,573 had CC1 Removable Roof Panels (78%)

    2,056 had Y87 Performance package (24.4%)

    10U 982 units
    11U 1,470 units
    13U 1,188 units
    28U 946 units
    44U 415 units
    41U 1,545 units
    71U 372 units
    81U 1,505 units


    V6 Convertible 1,498 units (2.1% of production)

    All had MX0 Automatic Transmission
    401 had NW9 Traction Control
    1,233 had FE9 Emissions
    66 had NG1 Emissions
    199 had YF5 Emissions

    34 had 10T white conv. top
    1,268 had 41T black conv. top
    196 had 56T Taupe conv. top


    10U 289 units
    11U 294 units
    13U 102 units
    28U 88 units
    41U 114 units
    44U 213 units
    71U 28 units
    81U 370 units


    FORMULA COUPE 901 UNITS 1.2% OF PRODUCTION

    409 units had MN6 6-speed transmission
    492 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
    473 units had NW9 Traction Control

    729 had FE9 Emissions
    95 had NG1 Emissions
    76 had YF5 Emissions

    167 had WU6 Firehawk Package

    10U 70 Units
    11U 124 units
    13U 90 units
    28U 142 units
    41U 244 units
    44U 42 units
    71U 51 units
    81U 138 units


    TRANS AM COUPE 3,962 5.5% OF PRODUCTION

    1,591 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
    2,371 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
    2,732 units had NW9 Traction Control

    3,345 units had FE9 Emissions
    273 units had NG1 Emissions
    344 units had YF5 Emissions

    1,131 units had WU6 Firehawk Package

    10U 343 units
    11U 408 units
    13U 408 units
    28U 474 units
    41U 1,215 units
    44U 145 units
    71U 135 units
    81U 834 units


    TRANS AM CONVERTIBLE 998 UNITS (1.4% OF PRODUCTION)

    235 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
    763 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
    578 units had NW9 Traction control

    858 units had FE9 Emissions
    71 units had NG1 Emissions
    67 units had YF5 Emissions

    202 units had WU6 Firehawk Package

    36 units had 10T white convert. Top
    777 units had 41T black convert. Top
    185 units had 56T Taupe convert. Top


    10U 84 units
    11U 246 units
    13U 58 units
    28U 109 units
    41U 261 units
    44U 52 units
    71U 26 units
    81U 162 units


    WS6 RAM AIR COUPES 12,212 UNITS (16.9% OF PRODUCTION)

    6,828 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
    5,384 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
    8,115 units had NW9 Traction Control

    10,601 had FE9 Emissions
    833 had NG1 Emissions
    775 had YF5 Emissions

    1,349 units were Z15 Collector Editions

    10U 986 units
    11U 1,585 units
    13U 1,112 units
    28U 1,327 units
    41U 3,630 units
    54U (C/E) 1,349 units
    71U 525 units
    81U 1,698 units


    WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLES 2,696 UNITS (3.7% OF PRODUCTION)

    1,176 units had MN6 6-speed manual transmission
    1,520 units had MX0 Automatic transmission
    1,971 units had NW9 Traction Control

    2,250 had FE9 Emissions
    255 had NG1 Emissions
    189 had YF5 Emissions

    1,042 were Z15 Collector Editions


    67 units had 10T white conv. top
    2,410 units had 41T Black conv. top
    219 units had 56T Taupe conv. top


    10U 164 units
    11U 175 units
    13U 131 units
    28U 204 units
    41U 563 units
    54U (C/E) 1,042 units
    71U 71 units
    81U 346 units



    WS6 RAM AIR COUPE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL


    10U 454 units
    11U 963 units
    13U 613 units
    28U 738 units
    41U 2,066 units
    54U 842 units
    71U 304 units
    81U 848 units


    WS6 RAM AIR COUPE WITH AUTOMATIC

    10U 532 units
    11U 622 units
    13U 499 units
    28U 589 units
    41U 1,564 units
    54U 507 units
    71U 221 units
    81U 850 units

    WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLE WITH 6-SPEED

    10U 56 units
    11U 71 units
    13U 51 units
    28U 74 units
    41U 221 units
    54U 554 units
    71U 30 units
    81U 119 units


    WS6 RAM AIR CONVERTIBLE WITH AUTOMATIC

    10U 108 units
    11U 104 units
    13U 80 units
    28U 130 units
    41U 342 units
    54U 488 units
    71U 41 units
    81U 227 units


    FIREHAWK COUPE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL TRANS

    10U 60 units
    11U 54 units
    13U 84 units
    28U 127 units
    41U 348 units
    71U 60 units
    81U 150 units

    FIREHAWK COUPE WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

    10U 28 units
    11U 49 units
    13U 40 units
    28U 76 units
    41U 121 units
    71U 25 units
    81U 76 units

    FIREHAWK CONVERTIBLE WITH 6-SPEED MANUAL

    10U 8 units
    11U 9 units
    13U 6 units
    28U 23 units
    41U 45 units
    71U 11 units
    81U 26 units


    FIREHAWK CONVERTIBLE WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

    10U 8 units
    11U 5 units
    13U 1 unit
    28U 17 units
    41U 26 units
    71U 4 units
    81U 13 units

    taken from http://www.f-bodyhideout.com/build_c...2_firebird.htm and http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpo...72&postcount=6

  13. #13
    Senior Member TransAm11973's Avatar
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    Black
    2000 Trans Am WS6

    Quote Originally Posted by hutch1999 View Post
    Ive never seen that anywhere around here. You can get low mileage WS6s for under $25. Where ever your located at your getting fucked.
    haha you always crack me up I agree with you.

  14. #14
    Member Since 1998 Mecinoid's Avatar
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    '98,'00-B 93,03,11,14-V

    Great info ... I'll be analyzing this for weeks. ;-)

    There are some great ideas a comments. I just can't see buying a 1st or 2nd Gen for more than $15K. The only exception to that would be a original car with 25K- 50K miles
    I might pay up to 30K for something like that. That would be my limit

    This is coming from a guy that bought a complete 10 sec Camaro in used and unrusted condition for $6500 + $1000 Trailer.

    Keep the opinions coming I'm sure there is more I haven't considered. I would like to be able to justify a $60K rebuilt race car with 800HP before I try to sell mine in two or three years after I'm done playing with it.

  15. #15
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
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    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Psychosis View Post
    Yes are cars will be worth a lot, especially if they are the last Camaro/Firebirds ever built. It doesn't look like they are bringing them back anytime soon and dealerships are already asking $30k+ for low mileage (like 10k) WS6 trans ams. I don't know if they are selling for that much but thats whats being asked.
    are they kissing the people before they blow there load all over their face?
    who in there right fuckin mind is going to pay 30k for a 5 year old used f-body.
    i need to find me an idiot that will buy my formula for that kinda of money. id sell it in a heartbeat and grab me a low miles 02-03 Z06 for 30k
    2000 nhra edition formula
    a few bolt ons, 379 rwhp
    11.96 @113.25

  16. #16
    URDRSRMINE Method's Avatar
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    Black
    2001 Trans AM WS6 M6

    I paid $27K, for my '01 WS6 w/ 4K mi on it. Car was in MINTY FRESH condition. I was considering the vette's, but I wanted something I didn't see a million times in a summer.

  17. #17
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Navy Blue Metallic
    `98 Formula M6 HdTp

    Quote Originally Posted by 02cetransam View Post
    I hope you were being silly? No way they made 250 000 1979 firebird. You may want to check other sources.
    I'm sorry I was off a little I was thinking `69 Camaro production my mistake.
    Total Firebird production for 1979 was 211,454 and 117,108 of those were Trans Am's
    Hers a list of `67-`81 Firebird production numbers
    http://www.yearone.com/updatedsingle...rebirdprod.asp
    Last edited by 9T8W66; 01-06-2008 at 01:31 PM.

  18. #18
    Member speedracer25f's Avatar
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    Midnight Blue
    1998 Trans Am

    I love my 98 Trans am, but Ive also owned many older cars. 68 Chevelle, 64 Impala ss, 70 Monte Carlo. All are fun to drive, but I would much rather take the trans am on a long ride. Also a big difference between the old cars and the new, when I pull up in my trans am, people are like nice car, very sexy. Pull up in an old car and a crowd gathers.

  19. #19
    Member speedracer25f's Avatar
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    Midnight Blue
    1998 Trans Am

    I love my 98 Trans am, but Ive also owned many older cars. 68 Chevelle, 64 Impala ss, 70 Monte Carlo. All are fun to drive, but I would much rather take the trans am on a long ride. Also a big difference between the old cars and the new, when I pull up in my trans am, people are like nice car, very sexy. Pull up in an old car and a crowd gathers.

  20. #20
    Member matthewaqui's Avatar
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    Red/Silver/Black/Red
    TA-G8-Expe-L200-Camaro

    Red face TA for Less.................

    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    are they kissing the people before they blow there load all over their face?
    who in there right fuckin mind is going to pay 30k for a 5 year old used f-body.
    i need to find me an idiot that will buy my formula for that kinda of money. id sell it in a heartbeat and grab me a low miles 02-03 Z06 for 30k
    That's right man!!!! I have a Red Immaculate 11k mile 2001 Trans Am sitting in the garage that has never been out in the rain with a bottom side that is cleaner than a newborn that I highly doubt anyone would pay over $18,000 for. I probably put less than 1k on it or even less than that. My biggest fear is future engine problem from not running the vehicle enough. Sitting vehicle are not healthy.

    Men! Other than that... no way over $20k because at that price, why would a person not go for a new 2010 SS Camaro with 500 hp stock that is brand spanking new?

    Enough said, you know what the deal is...............

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