GM may suspend pontiac division.

**joker** · 12-02-2008, 03:13 PM

Anyone else read about this, they may be shutting down Pontiac , Hummer , Saturn , and Saab. The return of the bird may be a fleeting thought.

**2000LS1Bird** · 12-02-2008, 03:28 PM

I posted this in the political forum, but I'll restate it here.

In my book, Pontiac was mothballed in '02 when the Firebird line-up was killed.

To kill a car with such deep tradition and following (the Camaro/Z28 included) showed complete ineptitude within the company, and everything that has happened to them since has not surprised me in the least.

Don't anyone try to say, "well, GM's bringing back the Camaro" either. They should have had a workable redesign ready in '03 for the F-body, not some POS Holden fake looking GTO that sold worse than any year Firebird EVER.

They need to fire all the management at GM and Chapter 11 the company. Then fix the products from the ground up. Buick should get back a GN-type vehicle to flagship the brand, otherwise, that one should probably go.

They shouldn't kill Pontiac AND Saturn--just Saturn. The Solstice is hot selling car, and that would be plain stupid to eliminate it. The G6 and G8 models aren't bad either, but Pontiac needs its flagship back.

**clg82** · 12-02-2008, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by 2000LS1Bird

I posted this in the political forum, but I'll restate it here.

In my book, Pontiac was mothballed in '02 when the Firebird line-up was killed.

To kill a car with such deep tradition and following (the Camaro/Z28 included) showed complete ineptitude within the company, and everything that has happened to them since has not surprised me in the least.

Don't anyone try to say, "well, GM's bringing back the Camaro" either. They should have had a workable redesign ready in '03 for the F-body, not some POS Holden fake looking GTO that sold worse than any year Firebird EVER.

They need to fire all the management at GM and Chapter 11 the company. Then fix the products from the ground up. Buick should get back a GN-type vehicle to flagship the brand, otherwise, that one should probably go.

They shouldn't kill Pontiac AND Saturn--just Saturn. The Solstice is hot selling car, and that would be plain stupid to eliminate it. The G6 and G8 models aren't bad either, but Pontiac needs its flagship back.

You forgot to mention that the ECONOMY is in a horrible state as well!!!

I don't believe that not bringing back the Firebird is what brought the demise of GM!

**gprodigys** · 12-02-2008, 04:20 PM

can you find a link to anything saying gm might do it?

**Too Fast** · 12-02-2008, 04:27 PM

Here is a link:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thre...n_id=rss_daily

It is true, I would hate to have it happen.

**RedVertTA** · 12-02-2008, 08:13 PM

One thing that has been ruining GM is the damned unions, today it costs GM more in labor to make a car than it does steel, and they can't cut back because they have union contracts that bind them. By declaring bankruptcy those contracts will be null, I think then we could see a rise for GM.

**alewis** · 12-02-2008, 09:51 PM

Don`t put down the unions. they are there for the people. The problem is the economy. I live in tupelo,ms and we are getting a toyota plant bout 15 min. up the road, and they have laid off alot of people building it and put off opening it two years. You know if the japanese are struggling that times are bad. Mabey Obamma will do some good. All we can do is hope.

**Orcus79** · 12-03-2008, 01:00 AM

I am not suprised at all that GM is in trouble as they have been basicly ignoring the new customer base for years (Ie younger folk like my self, who remember the good cars), in favour of the older customers.

The have lost alot of customers by ditching the f-bodies, and not offering affordable replacements. The focus on the high end SUVS and such have alienated a large customer basee that has moved towards the imports that offer sporty cars at a reasonable price.

I my self for that reason haven't looked at a new GM product in many years, having shifted my loyalties towards Toyota most notably.

IF they nix Pontaic, it will be a sad day in deed (when was the last time you have seen a pontiac commercial any ways, i think its been a long time coming realy). I'm glad I wil then be the owner of two collectors cars then.

**optiato** · 12-03-2008, 06:15 AM

The company I work for is pretty close to GM. I technically can't say much more than that...

But I can say that of the 4 brands that were mentioned, Pontiac is the most up in the air as to if it's really going to go or not.

Their official plan right now is to go from 6,450 dealers to, 4,700 and from 63 models to 40 (cars that are basically the same, just named differently between the brands (Chevy Traverse and the Saturn Outlook)).

**1 Bad Ass Formula** · 12-03-2008, 06:43 AM

I don't think anything ails GM more than management. Everyone from Bob Lutz down to especially Rick Wagoner. They've made too many boneheaded moves, the Asstek should've never made production, while it was great to have the LSx powered GTO, they never gave it an aggressive stance that would have made the car more popular, their answer was Wienie scoops and an ok basic ground effect package. Pontiac, and Buick does not have a decent line-up to bring people into their dealerships. The G8 is a step forward, the G6 GXP is a very nice aggressive looking car, the Vibe is the better looking twin the Matrix and is a nice vehicle, but the rebadged vehicles like the G3 & G5 are only hurting the brand. why not just give Chevy the Pontiac sporty styling & seating of those two cars? Pontiac without a doubt has always had more comfortable seats in their cars and they've never been basic looking like the Chevy's. Also GM really doesn't need a Saturn, Pontiac, Buick, and Chevy version of the same exact mini-van. Moves like that only kills them more.

Buick on the other hand has made it's name in the past 20 years of being the 70-80 year old senior citizens car maker. To change that reputation, the Lucerne is a good start but they need to dump every other model and start from scratch and turn Buick into GM's version of Lexus. GM really needs to advertise their new cars & brands on TV & Radio more and creatively to compete with Toyota, and Honda. Maybe even pay off MT, C&D, etc like Toyota & Honda do.

**optiato** · 12-03-2008, 06:55 AM

GM has been moving in the right direction on advertising, lately. They have a contract with a company to totally revamp their entire digital advertising campaign. The statistics show that there's improvement. Yeah, sales are still falling, but their advertising is more efficient.

I often question TV and Radio ads... I know in my household we never listen to or watch commercials. DVR and Satellite radio!

But at least they aren't wasting as much money into print ads anymore.

**gprodigys** · 12-03-2008, 02:36 PM

well tv show and movies are becoming more of the advertisements. look at transformers for example

**jamessr** · 12-03-2008, 03:21 PM

Sorry but thats where Ford kills GM. As much as I don't like Mustangs there's a reason its an "everyone has one car" Because the damn car makers didn't screw its customer base. Ok cancel Trans Am and Firebird, Imagine if the did make a TA along with the Camaro and had them ready when Tranformers came out. I'm not a marketing genius but I'm pretty sure they'd sell...

TBH fuck GM, I hope they go under. We'll never see a Firebird again but Mustang, will always be around.

**blackmetal** · 12-06-2008, 02:04 PM

I have to say I'm not a GM exclusivist, Im not one of those "be American buy American" types and honestly I have to admit Toyota and Honda overall have built better all around cars over the last 20 years than any of the big 3. I love my T/A to death but if I were in the market for a new car and it had to last me the next 10-15 years it would have to be a Toyota Carolla or Yaris. But it is absolutly imperitive that the Big 3 are saved if nothing else as a matter of National Security, who built the tanks, Jeeps, and planes, that won WWII. If it were not for the Big 3 we would all be blogging in german right now. The congress was so quick to write the check for $700 trillion to GIVE to Fannie Mac and Freddie Mae but are giving the big 3 the 3rd degree when they ask for a LOAN for somwhere in the neighborhood of 1/28 th of what the GAVE to couple of lending agencies handing out mogage loans to every dirt bag who asked for them regardless of credit, income, or down payment. Should there be a reckoning with the corporate offices of GM, Chrysler, and Ford? Hell yes. Should the congress have some questions before signing the check? Absolutly. Does America need GM, Chrysler, and Ford? (well not so much that last one) Yes, unless we want to just roll over, and through up the white flag in WW III.

**sharptransam** · 12-07-2008, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by alewis

You know if the japanese are struggling that times are bad. Mabey Obamma will do some good. All we can do is hope.

That statement is obvious. Japan's economy has been based on us for decades now because they export to us. We took over their defense after WWII and they have geared that extra money from their military to development of gadgets, which they know we buy. our economy goes down, we stop buying their crap, and they're economy goes down. it's a symbiotic relationship. Another thing, everyone blames the PRESIDENT for the trouble in the country. Does anyone realize that the checks and balances of our government don't just let the president run the country into the ground when he wants? He's not a drunk highschooler behind the wheel of daddy's hummer. People constantly analyze what he is doing and will do later and if they don't like it, they stop it. It's not Bush's fault the economy sucks (although in general he sucks as a president, he was sadly the best choice IMO), and it won't be Obama's 'change' that fixes it. (I think people need to recheck the exact definition of change).

I think GM needs to trim the fat. I had heard they would be selling those companies, not closing them, but it changes daily.

Let's face it though, has there really been an exciting American car coming out lately? The Challenger was interesting, but you'd have to take out a second mortgage to afford it. there is no 'poor man muscle' like the trans am and z-28, unless you want to spend 40k for a kinda quick Mustang with an interior that looks like a cardboard cut out.

I don't know if the big 3 should go bankrupt or not cause I'm not an accountant or an economist, but lets face it, when the canceled the firebird and camaro's, they left the door wide open for the imports to move into the sporty car department. Now, if they ever come out with the camaro, it probably can't reclaim the space. It's obviously management's fault, again IMO, that cars across the board look exactly like the others with different brands and labels slapped on them. Nobody wants a cookie cutter car made for the masses. I'd rather buy an older car with some individuality than a new car that I can't find in a 10 car parking lot.

**shady milkman** · 12-07-2008, 10:13 AM

the firebird didnt kill gm . Falling asleep behind the wheel of change helped kill GM..that and the economical crisis...remember..only GM north america is struggling..gm sales over seas is steadily increasing its sales...the gto and g8 are obviously good moves..when it comes to chance....they both where/are still being made in austrila...so they ship them over and put some new body parts on and call it good..that was a smart risk...they are unifying their line..cutting costs and retooling costs.. GM has changed their managment about 2 years ago....they are in the process of retooling/making big moves..it was unfortunate that this economic crisis hit at the same time. companies dont make money durring retooling and on new technology..... the F-body was dead..so 03+ f-body was a no go..it couldnt keep up with safety regulations (f-body platform is close to 40 years)...the gn, the firebird etc will not make money for the companies...any blue chip car does not make a substandtal amount of money for the company..maybe besides the base corvette.

**SS02** · 12-07-2008, 11:27 AM

Yep... the high end cars, do not make the big money!!! They sell very
few. The Vette and the Caddie is probably enough... for that sporty view!
Then get the general public in there buying cars, over and over.

**BLAUPLOW** · 12-07-2008, 05:41 PM

I think they should just bring back the transam and call it a day

**shady milkman** · 12-07-2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by BLAUPLOW

I think they should just bring back the transam and call it a day

and sell as horribly as the 4th gens did and loose the company more money.........sure you didnt work for gm's product manager ?

**pontiac guy** · 12-08-2008, 06:44 PM

The real problem at GM is they are an engineering/manufacturing company run by bean counters. Accountants are great at cutting costs, but the suck at seeing the big picture (The word to use here is R&D). I USED to live in the Detroit area. Before GM killed my place of employment with their cost cutting strategies that only cost them quality and their reputation. Its pretty sick when I go visit my family, and almost 50% of the vehicles on the road in metro Detroit are imports. Thats what lack of vision and cost cutting do for you.