Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 104

fox mustang vs t/a

This is a discussion on fox mustang vs t/a within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by Armor WS6 Option, Includes: (this is off the factory window sticker on my '99 WS6) *Ram Air ...

  1. #21
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Armor View Post
    WS6 Option, Includes: (this is off the factory window sticker on my '99 WS6)
    *Ram Air induction system
    *Functional air scoops
    *Specific low restriction dual exhaust system
    *5 spoke 17" high polished aluminium wheels
    *P275/40ZR17 speed rated Tires
    *Specific tuned suspension
    *Power Steering Cooler

    *Ram Air induction system makes about 3 more horsepower than a airbox on a non ram air car
    *Functional air scoops are good for fresh air but dont make any difference
    *Specific low restriction dual exhaust system good for about 5 horsepower over a non ram air
    *5 spoke 17" high polished aluminium wheelswhen it comes to racing 16 inch rims are better
    *P275/40ZR17 speed rated Tireswhile rated for top speed, they suck at off the line traction
    *Specific tuned suspension you feel the bumps more, doesnt change drag times
    *Power Steering Cooleruseless, i have one on my car

  2. #22
    Junior Member Armor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    wyoming
    Age
    48
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    hows the ram air going to be faster??
    i mean on the internet, WS6s, SSs and FIREHAWKS are faster, at a race track, thats not the case.
    do a search of peoples times, all stock LS1 cars do about the same E.Ts

    Agreed...they are all going to run about the same at the racetrack...but most of the variation in times are due to the DRIVER, not the car....read my above posts...I've seen plenty of LT1's post better times than LS1's as well, I've also seen plenty of Mustangs beat them as well...you going to tell me it's becasue of the car? Better drivers, my friend... look at some of the orgional tests done on these cars by Car & Driver, Road & Track, ect....the WS6 and SS always ran a bit quicker in the quarter mile than the T/A and Z28 with the same driver driving...not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless...you can belive what you want...look at the orgional tests done on these cars...

    Hey riceslayer302, do Mustang owners squabble like this also?

  3. #23
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Armor View Post
    Agreed...they are all going to run about the same at the racetrack...but most of the variation in times are due to the DRIVER, not the car....read my above posts...I've seen plenty of LT1's post better times than LS1's as well, I've also seen plenty of Mustangs beat them as well...you going to tell me it's becasue of the car? Better drivers, my friend... look at some of the orgional tests done on these cars by Car & Driver, Road & Track, ect....the WS6 and SS always ran a bit quicker in the quarter mile than the T/A and Z28 with the same driver driving...not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless...you can belive what you want...look at the orgional tests done on these cars...

    Hey riceslayer302, do Mustang owners squabble like this also?
    i totally agree its the driver that makes all the difference.
    while evan smith did go fastest in a SS, guys on the ls1 boards have gone faster with a stripper Z/28 that was stock and had video to prove it.
    road and track and car and driver did not test all models of f-body. magazine racing is kinda useless. thats why i tell people use the search feature and they can see for themselves.
    as stated before, ls1tech has a wealth of info on this subject
    2000 nhra edition formula
    a few bolt ons, 379 rwhp
    11.96 @113.25

  4. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    connecticut
    Posts
    113

    white
    1990 Mustang GT

    mustang owners dont squabble, they hunker in groups and hide from LS1's. lol.

  5. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    connecticut
    Posts
    113

    white
    1990 Mustang GT

    what is the difference between the NHRA edition T/A? my buddy has a 02 NHRA and the thing is beautiful, he's putting a 427 in it right now, er thats the rumor.

  6. #26
    Junior Member Armor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    wyoming
    Age
    48
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    i totally agree its the driver that makes all the difference.
    Yeah, there is this clown that runs at the track 40 miles south of me in a '00 Z28 with all the bolt-ons...and he routinely gets his ass handed to him by stock LT1's and Mustangs just because he's a lousy driver...


    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    while evan smith did go fastest in a SS, guys on the ls1 boards have gone faster with a stripper Z/28 that was stock and had video to prove it.
    road and track and car and driver did not test all models of f-body. magazine racing is kinda useless. thats why i tell people use the search feature and they can see for themselves.
    as stated before, ls1tech has a wealth of info on this subject
    Curious as to how much lighter the Z28 was in comparison to the SS. By "stripper" I'm guessing you are referring to a car with minimal options, no power accessories, cloth interior, hardtop, ect...in that case, I'd bet there is a reasonable weight advantage to the Z28...most SS's are pretty loaded with options...got a link to this stuff? I'd like to check it out...

    I used to bracket race alot, I had a '72 El Camino I used on the track, and I found that for every 100 lbs+/- I could lighten the vehicle, I'd knock about a tenth off my 1/4 mile times, weight makes such a huge difference.

    It seems that we are talking about WS6 vs. non-WS6 strictly in acceleration performance. I don't think anybody can argue that in identically equipped cars with the same driver, the WS6 is going to have an edge there. Maybe not much, but an edge nontheless. Sure, things like 17" wheels and upgraded suspension and handling are not going to help at the track much, but realistically, most of the miles are going to be put on the car street driving. This is one area IMO where the WS6 really shines over the regular T/A. The acceleration is a bit better, and it handles better, the combination of the two factors plus the looks of the WS6 make it the better car for me.

    Now, if extensive modification of the vehicle is in the plans, and there will be a budget, in that instance I think one can actually make a very good case for the LT1 equipped Trans Ams...there are plenty of clean, low mile LT1's out there to be had for a bargain, much less expensive up front than a comparible LS1 equipped 'bird, generally cheaper to modify, and the LT1 is a very durable engine that responds well to modification. So in an overall "bang for your buck" sense, the LT1 has a big advantage over the LS1 IMO...

    riceslayer302 mustang owners dont squabble, they hunker in groups and hide from LS1's. lol.
    well, time to get yourself an F-Body then, isn't it? Obviously tons of different opinions here, best advice I can think of is drive as many of them as you can before you make a decision, that's the best way to see what YOU like/dislike or need/don't need in an F-Body....YOU are the one that needs to be happy with what you buy, LS1 or LT1, WS6 or non, ect...not any of us....

  7. #27
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Armor View Post
    Yeah, there is this clown that runs at the track 40 miles south of me in a '00 Z28 with all the bolt-ons...and he routinely gets his ass handed to him by stock LT1's and Mustangs just because he's a lousy driver...




    Curious as to how much lighter the Z28 was in comparison to the SS. By "stripper" I'm guessing you are referring to a car with minimal options, no power accessories, cloth interior, hardtop, ect...in that case, I'd bet there is a reasonable weight advantage to the Z28...most SS's are pretty loaded with options...got a link to this stuff? I'd like to check it out...

    It seems that we are talking about WS6 vs. non-WS6 strictly in acceleration performance. I don't think anybody can argue that in identically equipped cars with the same driver, the WS6 is going to have an edge there. Maybe not much, but an edge nontheless. Sure, things like 17" wheels and upgraded suspension and handling are not going to help at the track much, but realistically, most of the miles are going to be put on the car street driving. This is one area IMO where the WS6 really shines over the regular T/A. The acceleration is a bit better, and it handles better, the combination of the two factors plus the looks of the WS6 make it the better car for me.





    ::
    i have to find the links with weight, but its close to 300 pounds.
    my car is 3380 with a full tank of gas, lighter than my buddies hardtop SS by about 120 lbs.

    i totally disagree with you on the acceleration comment and im sure im not the only one.
    both cars have an ls1 dynoing the same, same trans, rear gear, weight and good driver how is it possible that the ram air is going to pull the non ram air.
    non ram airs weigh less have have 16 inch tires.
    i dont mean to sound like a prick, but you yourself said you bracket race, how is it that a car that weighs less and has the same horsepower going to lose?

  8. #28
    Junior Member Armor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    wyoming
    Age
    48
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    i have to find the links with weight, but its close to 300 pounds.
    my car is 3380 with a full tank of gas, lighter than my buddies hardtop SS by about 120 lbs.
    300lbs...there is 3/10's right there...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    i totally disagree with you on the acceleration comment and im sure im not the only one.
    both cars have an ls1 dynoing the same, same trans, rear gear, weight and good driver how is it possible that the ram air is going to pull the non ram air.
    non ram airs weigh less have have 16 inch tires.
    i dont mean to sound like a prick, but you yourself said you bracket race, how is it that a car that weighs less and has the same horsepower going to lose?
    Don't worry, you don't sound like a prick, and you have good points...I suspect one of the advantages is the Ram Air setup itself. A dyno isn't going to reflect the true power gain, because the car is static. Even with a fan blowing on it on the dyno it won't be the same as the car moving through the air itself. Heck, the advertised HP gain on the WS6 is due more to the exhaust than anything. The ram air/airbox setup on the WS6 is pretty well designed, and remarkably efficient. It almost pressurizes the air going into the intake while the car is accelerating, giving the car a bit more power, faster revs, ect...while you won't see this gain so much on the dyno, you will see it at the track, again, given equal cars and drivers.

    The design of a ram air system and really change the performance of a car. The scoops on the WS6 are ideally located low on the hood and in the front, where they catch the max amount of air. Compared to the intake of the SS, which is further back on the hood, the WS6 scoops catch more air. The SS scoop is actually located in a low air pressure spot on the hood due to the aerodynamics of the vehicle, and loses much of the "ram" effect.

    I'll use some examples of cars from the past. The '69 GTO is a good one. The scoops were high on the hood, right at the lowest air pressure spot, and this actually hurt the performance of the car a bit, because the aerodynamics of the vehicle actually created a bit of a vaccum in front of the scoops. Many GTO owners figured this out, and re-installed the scoop blocks. Another great example is the second generation T/A's with the shaker cowl scoop. I owned quite a few of these, and the first thing we always did was unblock that scoop. It faces a high pressure air pocket created at the base of the windsheild, and gets quite a bit of air rammed into it at speed. I also bracket raced my '78 T/A and simply unblocking the shaker bought that car almost 2 tenths of a second in the 1/4, but I bet that if dynoed it wouldn't show much of a HP increase...

    Fun debate!

  9. #29
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    connecticut
    Posts
    113

    white
    1990 Mustang GT

    here i was starting this thread off wondering if you guys could give me a few advantages of LS1's over fox mustangs and it turns into a debate over what type of f-body is better.

    is this a common debate? i mean in the end we're all domestics and we all hate imports....

  10. #30
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The great red state of MD.
    Posts
    5,755

    Black
    2001 Trans Am (sold)

    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    hows the ram air going to be faster??
    i mean on the internet, WS6s, SSs and FIREHAWKS are faster, at a race track, thats not the case.
    do a search of peoples times, all stock LS1 cars do about the same E.Ts
    Werd.

  11. #31
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Armor View Post
    300lbs...there is 3/10's right there...



    Don't worry, you don't sound like a prick, and you have good points...I suspect one of the advantages is the Ram Air setup itself. A dyno isn't going to reflect the true power gain, because the car is static. Even with a fan blowing on it on the dyno it won't be the same as the car moving through the air itself. Heck, the advertised HP gain on the WS6 is due more to the exhaust than anything. The ram air/airbox setup on the WS6 is pretty well designed, and remarkably efficient. It almost pressurizes the air going into the intake while the car is accelerating, giving the car a bit more power, faster revs, ect...while you won't see this gain so much on the dyno, you will see it at the track, again, given equal cars and drivers.

    The design of a ram air system and really change the performance of a car. The scoops on the WS6 are ideally located low on the hood and in the front, where they catch the max amount of air. Compared to the intake of the SS, which is further back on the hood, the WS6 scoops catch more air. The SS scoop is actually located in a low air pressure spot on the hood due to the aerodynamics of the vehicle, and loses much of the "ram" effect.

    I'll use some examples of cars from the past. The '69 GTO is a good one. The scoops were high on the hood, right at the lowest air pressure spot, and this actually hurt the performance of the car a bit, because the aerodynamics of the vehicle actually created a bit of a vaccum in front of the scoops. Many GTO owners figured this out, and re-installed the scoop blocks. Another great example is the second generation T/A's with the shaker cowl scoop. I owned quite a few of these, and the first thing we always did was unblock that scoop. It faces a high pressure air pocket created at the base of the windsheild, and gets quite a bit of air rammed into it at speed. I also bracket raced my '78 T/A and simply unblocking the shaker bought that car almost 2 tenths of a second in the 1/4, but I bet that if dynoed it wouldn't show much of a HP increase...

    Fun debate!


    its not even a true ram air on ls1 cars, its more of a fresh air system.
    for ram air it would need to be sealed.
    lets say it is sealed, to get any real benifits you need to be at higher speeds. even when at higher speeds, i dont see ram air making enough power to overcome a weight difference of 100+ pounds.
    to top it off, most guys get a aftermarket lid and report an increase in trap and e.t over the stock ram air set up.
    ram air on current cars is more of a marketing sceme than anything else.

  12. #32
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by riceslayer302 View Post
    here i was starting this thread off wondering if you guys could give me a few advantages of LS1's over fox mustangs and it turns into a debate over what type of f-body is better.

    is this a common debate? i mean in the end we're all domestics and we all hate imports....
    alot of people will say that a firehawk, SS or ws6 is better when thats not true in terms of speed. better suspension, sure but that means nothing in the big city where pot holes and traffic suck.
    long story short, not one f-body is really faster than the other. likewise model years all dyno with a few hp of the other. on any given day, one can beat the other with equal drivers.

  13. #33
    last of the breed... urstolendesire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Stockbridge, GA
    Posts
    191

    Red
    2002 Transam

    dude, honestly... Any f-body owner loves his car. people seem to debate alot about the differences they do but stock, its still AN AWSOME CAR!! I've never had more fun anywhere. oh and i took on my buddys 2000 mustang GT with a few upgrades and still stomped his ass. eitherway, your gonna kill most thats on the road.

  14. #34
    Junior Member Armor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    wyoming
    Age
    48
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    its not even a true ram air on ls1 cars, its more of a fresh air system
    for ram air it would need to be sealed.
    I'll meet you half way on that one...even though it's not sealed, it crams a heck of a lot more air into the throttle body during acceleration than a simple cold air kit...sure, some air escapes through the gap between the scoops and the airbox, but a lot of it ends up in the airbox...think about it, the air is always going to follow the path of least resistance...it's easier for it to go straight into the aribox than make the 90 degree turns it needs to escape through the gaps...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    lets say it is sealed, to get any real benifits you need to be at higher speeds. even when at higher speeds, i dont see ram air making enough power to overcome a weight difference of 100+ pounds.
    I disagree...as soon as the vehicle is moving fast enough to shove more air into the airbox than the throttle body is sucking in, you'll see a gain...given the volume of the airbox, this is going to start happening well below 100mph...with a 100Lb difference, I suspect it may very well make up for that...just for curiosity's sake I'll take my WS6 to the track this summer and make some runs...a few with the scoops blocked off and a few with them open...heck I bet I can find a way to seal the scoop bulge to the airbox, I'll try that too and I'll post the results just for fun....


    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    to top it off, most guys get a aftermarket lid and report an increase in trap and e.t over the stock ram air set up..
    That's because the airlid makes the whole setup more efficient, by removing the air bellows which trap a lot of the air forced into the airbox, creating a smaller overall airbox volume which will help increase air pressure inside the box, and creating a smoother flow into the throttle body...the whole path of least resistance thing again...

    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    ram air on current cars is more of a marketing sceme than anything else.
    I agree 100% with you on that one....

  15. #35
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    Quote Originally Posted by Armor View Post
    I'll meet you half way on that one...even though it's not sealed, it crams a heck of a lot more air into the throttle body during acceleration than a simple cold air kit...sure, some air escapes through the gap between the scoops and the airbox, but a lot of it ends up in the airbox...think about it, the air is always going to follow the path of least resistance...it's easier for it to go straight into the aribox than make the 90 degree turns it needs to escape through the gaps...



    I disagree...as soon as the vehicle is moving fast enough to shove more air into the airbox than the throttle body is sucking in, you'll see a gain...given the volume of the airbox, this is going to start happening well below 100mph...with a 100Lb difference, I suspect it may very well make up for that...just for curiosity's sake I'll take my WS6 to the track this summer and make some runs...a few with the scoops blocked off and a few with them open...heck I bet I can find a way to seal the scoop bulge to the airbox, I'll try that too and I'll post the results just for fun....




    That's because the airlid makes the whole setup more efficient, by removing the air bellows which trap a lot of the air forced into the airbox, creating a smaller overall airbox volume which will help increase air pressure inside the box, and creating a smoother flow into the throttle body...the whole path of least resistance thing again...



    I agree 100% with you on that one....
    to seal up the ram air,theres a kit called the bgra.

    i think youll find youre track results more in line with what ive said.

    you want killer induction,
    Last edited by nhraformula; 04-22-2007 at 01:54 PM.

  16. #36
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    btw, above seals to the hood. lets no hot air in.

  17. #37
    Member Scanlamp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    55
    Posts
    378

    Black Hardtop
    01 NHRA Formula

    Wife: Lets go to ^&^&*
    Me: Cools lets take the bird!!!!
    Kids: can we go to?
    Me thinking as I get into the Aerostar: (fricken kids)....lol

  18. #38
    Formulatastic yellowv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    S. Florida
    Age
    39
    Posts
    1,271

    Red
    98 Formula /93 Z28

    I have owned a 99' WS.6 M6 and now a 98' Formula hardtop M6. Stock to stock the lighter Formula is the faster car.

  19. #39
    Junior Member Armor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    wyoming
    Age
    48
    Posts
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by nhraformula View Post
    to seal up the ram air,theres a kit called the bgra.

    i think youll find youre track results more in line with what ive said.

    you want killer induction,
    Nice looking induction...any idea on what kind of gains on the track that thing will give ya? Tomorrow at work when I'm bored I'll crunch some numbers for fun and see what I can come up with for a rough effectiveness of the existing WS6 hood/airbox assembly...

    oh, and sorry to drag the thread so far off topic riceslayer....

  20. #40
    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    n/w chicago
    Age
    47
    Posts
    6,933

    black
    2000 nhra edition formula

    it dynoed 7 more rwhp than a slp lid.
    i dont see it doing much for track times. maybe a very small increase in mph over a lid

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Mustang gt's??
    By Transamws6 in forum Domestics and Foreigns
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 01-16-2010, 06:28 AM
  2. 05 Red Mustang GT
    By Z06-Goose in forum Showcar and Detailing
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 07-30-2009, 09:39 PM
  3. ls1 vs mustang gt
    By midnightnavyz28 in forum Kill Stories
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-05-2009, 05:56 PM
  4. here's my mustang...
    By sit_back in forum Member's Rides
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-07-2006, 08:42 PM
  5. 06 Mustang GT vs. 99 z28
    By raybroussard in forum Kill Stories
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-10-2006, 01:51 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •