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Formula vs. Trans am

This is a discussion on Formula vs. Trans am within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag More clarification here as well.......... In '96-'97, SLP was contracted by GM to perform the SS ...

  1. #61
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag View Post
    More clarification here as well..........

    In '96-'97, SLP was contracted by GM to perform the SS and WS6 "upgrades" since they were already doing similar stuff for the Firehawks. In '98, the WS6 contract went to ASC, but the SS contract stayed w/ SLP, and it remained that way through '02. This is why you could order additional "SLP upgrade options" on LS1 SS ('98-'02) and Firehawks ('99-'02), but not on WS6s. I'm not sure if SLP offered any optional upgrades on the '96-'97 WS6s when they were doing those.

    Since SLP and ASC are (were) sub-contracted by GM for touching these cars, they are still considered "from the factory" and "in-house" (even though all the cars literally left the factory and was transported to SLP/ASC for the "upgrades"). Also, not ALL of the SS/WS6 "upgrades" were installed by SLP or ASC. For the LS1 cars, I believe the only thing ASC did was swap the hood and lower airbox and installed the badge on WS6s. Same thing for the SSs at SLP unless the customer ordered some of those other "SLP options". Therefore, non-SLP-optioned SS and WS6 cars went to SLP and ASC w/ their upgraded (over non-SS/WS6) suspension, exhaust and wheels already installed by GM's St. Therese plant. All that was left for SLP/ASC to do was to swap hoods, lower airbox (for WS6s) and slap on a badge.
    This is Absolutely Correct.
    I'll add that `96-`97 WS6's were available with SLP options such as the DOTL Exhaust.
    As a person that orderd a`98 Formula. I opted not to get the $3,150 WS6 option as it showed no REAL performance gain over the base car.
    The LS1 intake was discontinued after `00 in favor of the better flowing LS6 Intake. So this became the standard intake for all LSX Passenger Car Engines (F and Y car)
    The WS6 Option was first offered on the Formula and Trans Am in 1978.

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    car enthusiast djvaly's Avatar
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    true WS6 as we all know it nowadays is 01-02 package. the other former WS6packages at least in my opinion are much inferior and I did not even count them thanks for the clarification on the convoluted ws6 deal/historic point of view.

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    If the car has the WS6 RPO (Regular Production Option) code on the Door sticker than it is a TRUE WS6 `98 -`02.
    The difference in the `01-02 WS6 package was the lack of the stiffer springs availabe on the previous 3 yrs.
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    Man, this thread is craaaaazy!!!! When my (NON-WS6) '99 is pulled up by VIN#, it says it's a Formula Firebird Trans Am. It came with LS1 intake, EGR equipment, slightly larger cam, and more restrictive headers. The wife's '02 came with less restrictive headers, LS6 intake, no EGR equipment, and smaller cam. Wow! 5 HP difference ... why the hell (aside from emissions reasons)did GM go with the LS6 intake and free'r flowing headers only to put in a smaller cam?

    On the subject of WS6 realism, if the RPO code says it's a WS6, it's a WS6 ... no such animal as a 'true' or 'not true' WS6 because of the intake on the earlier models. That's like when my motor was built and converted into a LS6 ... valley cover and all ... well, it's still a LS1 ... just converted.

    Not really giving and shit if that makes sense ... just my .02 worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    If the car has the WS6 RPO (Regular Production Option) code on the Door sticker than it is a TRUE WS6 `98 -`02.
    Haha! Hey, you were typing the same thing the same time I was .. lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JEB99TA View Post
    Man, this thread is craaaaazy!!!! When my (NON-WS6) '99 is pulled up by VIN#, it says it's a Formula Firebird Trans Am. It came with LS1 intake, EGR equipment, slightly larger cam, and more restrictive headers. The wife's '02 came with less restrictive headers, LS6 intake, no EGR equipment, and smaller cam. Wow! 5 HP difference ... why the hell (aside from emissions reasons)did GM go with the LS6 intake and free'r flowing headers only to put in a smaller cam?

    On the subject of WS6 realism, if the RPO code says it's a WS6, it's a WS6 ... no such animal as a 'true' or 'not true' WS6 because of the intake on the earlier models. That's like when my motor was built and converted into a LS6 ... valley cover and all ... well, it's still a LS1 ... just converted.

    Not really giving and shit if that makes sense ... just my .02 worth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JEB99TA View Post
    Man, this thread is craaaaazy!!!! When my (NON-WS6) '99 is pulled up by VIN#, it says it's a Formula Firebird Trans Am. It came with LS1 intake, EGR equipment, slightly larger cam, and more restrictive headers. The wife's '02 came with less restrictive headers, LS6 intake, no EGR equipment, and smaller cam. Wow! 5 HP difference ... why the hell (aside from emissions reasons)did GM go with the LS6 intake and free'r flowing headers only to put in a smaller cam?

    On the subject of WS6 realism, if the RPO code says it's a WS6, it's a WS6 ... no such animal as a 'true' or 'not true' WS6 because of the intake on the earlier models. That's like when my motor was built and converted into a LS6 ... valley cover and all ... well, it's still a LS1 ... just converted.

    Not really giving and shit if that makes sense ... just my .02 worth.
    its becuase the smaller cam gave more low-mid, or maybe it was mid-high rpm range power. plus emissions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    its becuase the smaller cam gave more low-mid, or maybe it was mid-high rpm range power. plus emissions.
    Yeah, but, in 3rd gear on the dynojet, peak HP at higher RPM is where you want the power in 1st and 2nd so you don't range lower rpm's when shifting to get to 3rd. Takes more torque to get you back up to speed with each shift. The low-to mid power isn't much a diffrence anyway ... the cams aren't a drastic difference in ramp event (rate). Intake/exhaust duration is not significant, either. So, all-in-all, I would think the smaller cam would actually hurt the 01-02 cars ... instead of help them. porbably a major reason there is only 5 crank HP difference.

    On another note, most everyone knows the F-Body numbers weren't accurately rated by GM because they would have been too close to the numbers made by the flagship corvette. So, who really knows ... lol!!!

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    Meant to add the more restrictive headers on the 98-00 cars scavenged power better down lower, so, I believe it's a toss-up between the 98-00 cam and the 01-02 cam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JEB99TA View Post
    Yeah, but, in 3rd gear on the dynojet, peak HP at higher RPM is where you want the power in 1st and 2nd so you don't range lower rpm's when shifting to get to 3rd. Takes more torque to get you back up to speed with each shift. The low-to mid power isn't much a diffrence anyway ... the cams aren't a drastic difference in ramp event (rate). Intake/exhaust duration is not significant, either. So, all-in-all, I would think the smaller cam would actually hurt the 01-02 cars ... instead of help them. porbably a major reason there is only 5 crank HP difference.

    On another note, most everyone knows the F-Body numbers weren't accurately rated by GM because they would have been too close to the numbers made by the flagship corvette. So, who really knows ... lol!!!
    the 5 extra comes from the ls6 intake. and thats really sorta rated low. all ls1s make about 350 to the fly.

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    Direct swap LS1 to LS6 intake on my '99 yielded appr 14 at the flywheel. My '99 dyno'd about 310 at the flywheel. The vette's were at 345, if I remember correctly. Manufacturers rate their cars at the motor ... not RWHP.

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    You sure you didn't mean 305 instead of 350?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JEB99TA View Post
    You sure you didn't mean 305 instead of 350?
    i said 350 to the fly. yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    i said 350 to the fly. yes.
    +1 I agree with Shaddy_M.. I dyno 290rwhp, and A4 loose upto 18%.. so yeah I am 350 at crank stock,, the ws6 01-02 are around 365. (300rwhp)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    This is Absolutely Correct.
    I'll add that `96-`97 WS6's were available with SLP options such as the DOTL Exhaust.
    Thank you. I learn something new every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    The WS6 Option was first offered on the Formula and Trans Am in 1978.
    Quite true too. That's why I subtly referred to the '96+ WS6 cars as "outwardly badged" WS6s a few posts back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djvaly View Post
    true WS6 as we all know it nowadays is 01-02 package.
    I don't mean to be an ass, but YOU are the only one here who "knows the WS6 package as being a '01-'02 option". EVERYONE ELSE on LS1.com, for as long as I've been a member here (since 9/98 BTW) "knows" the WS6 package as at least available from '98-'02, and acknowledge the existance of the LT1 WS6s. I'm surprized at your lack of knowledge, especially considering YOU think that I'M the "newbie".

    Quote Originally Posted by djvaly View Post
    the other former WS6packages at least in my opinion are much inferior and I did not even count them
    While you are entitled to your opinion, not everyone agrees the '98-'00 WS6s as being "inferior" to the '01-'02 WS6s. FACT: Prior to Nov '00, the WS6 suspension package contained many more upgraded parts (over a non-WS6 car) than after Nov '00. So one could easily consider the earlier WS6s "superior" to the later ones (I'm not even going to touch on the higher "rarity" factor of the earlier cars). And if you think that little 5HP increase in '01 due to the aforementioned LS6 intake and other changes in the LS1 makes the '01-'02s "superior" to the earlier ones, you are in for a sad dissapointment. FACT: GM under-rated the LS1 in all the f-bods. The scatter of RWHP measurements of '01-'02 LS1s is broad enough to overlap the scatter of RWHP measurements of '98-'00 LS1s, which means some of the earlier LS1 have higher RWHP measurements than some of the '01-'02s. In other words, that little 5HP rating increase is "lost in the noise" of unit-to-unit variations in a given production year. Don't believe me? Some of the fastest, documented bone-stock 1/4-mi times on LS1 f-bods was achieved with the '98-'99 cars.
    Last edited by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag; 12-05-2006 at 01:49 PM.

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    [QUOTE=JohnnyBs98WS6Rag;492465]I don't mean to be an ass, but YOU are the only one here who "knows the WS6 package as being a '01-'02 option". EVERYONE ELSE on LS1.com, for as long as I've been a member here (since 9/98 BTW) "knows" the WS6 package as at least available from '98-'02, and acknowledge the existance of the LT1 WS6s.

    Johnny, don't get riled up by posters with insufficient information. They exist everywhere on all sites. If you need any more backup on the factory issued WS6 option it is clearly listed in the Standard Catalog of Firebird 1967-2002 by John Gunnell. A factory option is listed and they even have the factory list price for the hatchback at $29,600. Page 192.

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    car enthusiast djvaly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag View Post
    I don't mean to be an ass, but YOU are the only one here who "knows the WS6 package as being a '01-'02 option". EVERYONE ELSE on LS1.com, for as long as I've been a member here (since 9/98 BTW) "knows" the WS6 package as at least available from '98-'02, and acknowledge the existance of the LT1 WS6s. I'm surprized at your lack of knowledge, especially considering YOU think that I'M the "newbie".



    While you are entitled to your opinion, not everyone agrees the '99-'00 WS6s as being "inferior" to the '01-'02 WS6s. FACT: Prior to Nov '00, the WS6 suspension package contained many more upgraded parts (over a non-WS6 car) than after Nov '00. So one could easily consider the earlier WS6s "superior" to the later ones (I'm not even going to touch on the higher "rarity" factor of the earlier cars). And if you think that little 5HP increase in '01 due to the aforementioned LS6 intake and other changes in the LS1 makes the '01-'02s "superior" to the earlier ones, you are in for a sad dissapointment. FACT: GM under-rated the LS1 in all the f-bods. The scatter of RWHP measurements of '01-'02 LS1s is broad enough to overlap the scatter of RWHP measurements of '98-'00 LS1s, which means some of the earlier LS1 have higher RWHP measurements than some of the '01-'02s. In other words, that little 5HP rating increase is "lost in the noise" of unit-to-unit variations in a given production year. Don't believe me? Some of the fastest, documented bone-stock 1/4-mi times on LS1 f-bods was achieved with the '98-'99 cars.
    you are a newbbie, and an ass. hahah. j/k. ok mate, everybody has an opinion on this.. wasn't talking 98-00 for not having WS6, they were subcontracted out like u said, very few.. so in all reality 01-02 is the real thing from GM in my view... most people do think of the 01-02 WS6 package not earlier version,. not to slam anybody that has earlier version ....
    Last edited by djvaly; 12-05-2006 at 08:52 AM.

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    Only most people who are UNIFORMED think that the earlier than 01 WS6 is not the real thing. Of course its the real thing! Whether or not other people were aware of their presence or where the conversion was done. The more I kept reading this thread the more I became amazed at the confusion in basic knowledge about F-bodies. I have a '98 WS6 Formula, that I can assure you is the real thing. More agressive cam, high flowing fuel injectors, and all the standard WS-6 goodies.

    I applaud JohnnyBs for his attempts to correct all the misinformation in this thread and he is absolutely right on nearly every point I do have one thing to add. SLP (only 2 miles from the f-body factory) did all of the equipment swap at their facility including suspension, wheels/tires, exhaust, and exterior ehancments for both the SS and Firehawk (as well WS6 until ASC was contracted). This is why for a long time you could by factory "take-off" pieces direct from SLP including 16" wheel/tire combos, shocks/springs, and sway bars.

    Oh, and just to stir the pot a little, lets not forget the "rumor" that a certain number of lucky f-bodies happened to get LS-6 blocks because of LS-1 block production problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scientist View Post
    Only most people who are UNIFORMED think that the earlier than 01 WS6 is not the real thing. Of course its the real thing! Whether or not other people were aware of their presence or where the conversion was done. The more I kept reading this thread the more I became amazed at the confusion in basic knowledge about F-bodies. I have a '98 WS6 Formula, that I can assure you is the real thing. More agressive cam, high flowing fuel injectors, and all the standard WS-6 goodies.

    I applaud JohnnyBs for his attempts to correct all the misinformation in this thread and he is absolutely right on nearly every point I do have one thing to add. SLP (only 2 miles from the f-body factory) did all of the equipment swap at their facility including suspension, wheels/tires, exhaust, and exterior ehancments for both the SS and Firehawk (as well WS6 until ASC was contracted). This is why for a long time you could by factory "take-off" pieces direct from SLP including 16" wheel/tire combos, shocks/springs, and sway bars.

    Oh, and just to stir the pot a little, lets not forget the "rumor" that a certain number of lucky f-bodies happened to get LS-6 blocks because of LS-1 block production problems.

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