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diff between WS6 to a regular TransAm

This is a discussion on diff between WS6 to a regular TransAm within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by LGT Guru Lol 5-8hp could be casued by anthing when dynoing a car, im sure all those ...

  1. #21
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGT Guru View Post
    Lol 5-8hp could be casued by anthing when dynoing a car, im sure all those runs were on the same day LOL, it certainly isnt the 20hp they claim. The 308rwhp is about 350hp at the crank, which is what i was saying, and my 2000 made 317rwhp bone stock, better than any of the ram air cars on your list. It was 46 degrees, i made 307rwhp a couple months earlier when it was 88degrees incase that gives you any idea how easily temps can change dyno numbers
    True that. All dynos read different as well. Same car, same day, two different dynos and get two different #s as well.

  2. #22
    Junior Member AtLarge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    About $3K.
    It was $8-10k more when I was in the market. Of course that was seven years ago though. Still glad I didn't pay the extra money.

  3. #23
    Member since 1998 DarthD's Avatar
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    Black ASC#7564 May11,2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGT Guru View Post
    Lol 5-8hp could be casued by anthing when dynoing a car, im sure all those runs were on the same day LOL, it certainly isnt the 20hp they claim. The 308rwhp is about 350hp at the crank, which is what i was saying, and my 2000 made 317rwhp bone stock, better than any of the ram air cars on your list. It was 46 degrees, i made 307rwhp a couple months earlier when it was 88degrees incase that gives you any idea how easily temps can change dyno numbers
    That is why we need to look at average numbers. The numbers on the list are not from single cars. They are an average of a lot of cars. On average, a WS6 makes a little more power than a non WS6.
    Also, there are a lot of things in the car itself that will affect your numbers. you can put a car on a dyno, warm up the engine but still have cold transmission fluid and differential fluid. The first run may give you 300hp. With no changes you could see 305 hp on the next run because the fluids have thinned. The third run could give you 310hp as the fluids heat up more. There is also the condition of the plugs and wires, and even the air pressure in the tires.
    One more thing is you need to make sure that the cars you are comparing are using the same correction factor. The averages above are all SAE. STD will show higher numbers.

    Also, I have seen WS6's dyno as high as 328hp SAE, all stock.


    Also, the condition of the airfilter and oil will make a difference. If you recently changed your oil before a dyno run you will see a little more power than if the oil is old.

    It is a fact that the WS6 muffler is less restrictive. Typically a WS6 will see 5 - 10 hp more at the wheels with a good aftermarket muffler. A non WS6 will see 15-20 hp with a good aftermarket muffler. The hood obviously will not add any power, at least not on a dyno. Maybe the raised airbox is good for a few hp, maybe not. Either way, the muffler seems to be worth about 10hp to the wheels (on a Dynojet).
    GM claims 15 more flywheel hp. This seems reasonable.

    It really does not matter though. 10rwhp difference is not going to decide a race, especially on the street. If you bolt on a good aftermarket muffler, you have basically wiped out the hp difference anyway.
    Last edited by DarthD; 04-15-2008 at 06:48 PM.

  4. #24
    Member since 1998 DarthD's Avatar
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    Black ASC#7564 May11,2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
    It was $8-10k more when I was in the market. Of course that was seven years ago though. Still glad I didn't pay the extra money.
    WOW! Why would a $3000 package cost $8-$10K more? Price gouging dealers? From what I have seen, used WS6's sell for only about $1k more than a non WS6 and I have never seen a new one that was higher than sticker price.

    I had a chance in 2000 to buy a loaded 1999 WS6 30th aniversary convertible off the showroom floor for $26,000. That was the tag on the car and they told me they would go even lower. They just wanted to get rid of it. Unfortunatley, I did not have any way to come up with the money. Someone got an awesome deal!

    I chose a WS6 when I bought my car for the wheels and hood. The extra power rating did not matter. I have not modded the car nor do I plan to. If I had wanted to buy an aftermarket hood and wheels I would not have spent the money for a WS6. But, for $3000, I would say I got a good deal. I love the factory hood and wheels.
    How much would it cost to buy four 17" wheels and tires, a quality hood, and have it painted to match the car?

  5. #25
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    In 2002 the new WS6's were 5K over sticker around my area.

  6. #26
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthD View Post
    How much would it cost to buy four 17" wheels and tires, a quality hood, and have it painted to match the car?
    Wheels are about $1,000. I'm pickin up my WS9 hood for $500, guessing no more than $500 for prep and paint. =$2000. I got my chrome Firehawk rims when I needed new tires anyway so that ain't an issue.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthD View Post
    That is why we need to look at average numbers. The numbers on the list are not from single cars. They are an average of a lot of cars. On average, a WS6 makes a little more power than a non WS6.
    Also, there are a lot of things in the car itself that will affect your numbers. you can put a car on a dyno, warm up the engine but still have cold transmission fluid and differential fluid. The first run may give you 300hp. With no changes you could see 305 hp on the next run because the fluids have thinned. The third run could give you 310hp as the fluids heat up more. There is also the condition of the plugs and wires, and even the air pressure in the tires.
    One more thing is you need to make sure that the cars you are comparing are using the same correction factor. The averages above are all SAE. STD will show higher numbers.

    Also, I have seen WS6's dyno as high as 328hp SAE, all stock.


    Also, the condition of the airfilter and oil will make a difference. If you recently changed your oil before a dyno run you will see a little more power than if the oil is old.

    It is a fact that the WS6 muffler is less restrictive. Typically a WS6 will see 5 - 10 hp more at the wheels with a good aftermarket muffler. A non WS6 will see 15-20 hp with a good aftermarket muffler. The hood obviously will not add any power, at least not on a dyno. Maybe the raised airbox is good for a few hp, maybe not. Either way, the muffler seems to be worth about 10hp to the wheels (on a Dynojet).
    GM claims 15 more flywheel hp. This seems reasonable.

    It really does not matter though. 10rwhp difference is not going to decide a race, especially on the street. If you bolt on a good aftermarket muffler, you have basically wiped out the hp difference anyway.
    Ah, the voice of reason at last. Thanks.

    As I've said from the beginning, how much HP the WS6 exhaust is worth over the non-WS6 system is debateable, but the fact that it is worth something is NOT.

  8. #28
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    Lol it doesnt seem to be worth anything in races, i have proved ws6 owners wrong over and over again who told me they would win because they have a WS6, i know everyone says that but in a race the WS6 package doesnt really help.

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    Whatever. No argument that 5-10-15-20 (take your pick) HP isn't enough to make up for a poor driver. But since you seem to be such an awsome driver, you won't be wasting $$ upgrading your exhaust for 5-10-15-20 HP WHEN you get a T/A??

  10. #30
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    I never said that, i still dont believe the WS6 package is any faster in a race. Atleast its never been proven to me, you shpwed me a list of cars i guess it was an average of 02 trans ams and 02 ws6s, here ill make a list for you

    03 nissan spectra-385hp stock
    99 Geo metro-354hp
    05 Chevy cobalt-825hp

    Since i made this list do you believe me now that these cars make that much power stock? Didnt think so

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag View Post
    In Nov 2000, the WS6 suspension package was "watered down" for a softer ride. Again, the details of what exactly changes is too much detail for this post.
    Johnny, interesting comment. Do you have any literature that can support the changeover date?

  12. #32
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGT Guru View Post
    Lol it doesnt seem to be worth anything in races, i have proved ws6 owners wrong over and over again who told me they would win because they have a WS6, i know everyone says that but in a race the WS6 package doesnt really help.
    This much is true I can say from having gone to test and tune every week for the last 7 years. Who gives a crap about dyno #s anyway.

  13. #33
    Firebird Encyclopedia 9T8W66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    Who gives a crap about dyno #s anyway.
    I agree Dyno's are tools for tuning. I see way to many people useing their numbers as bragging rights, when in reality at the track the slightly more powerful car is not always the winner.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella View Post
    Johnny, interesting comment. Do you have any literature that can support the changeover date?
    Did some digging and searching, apparently that info was lost in the archives years ago. It was discussed in excrutiating detail in old posts, giving PNs for all the component changes that occurred in mid-production of the '00s. I remember alot of the (then new) WS6 owners being pissed about this un-advertized change in the suspension package. I'm sure other old-timers who've been around LS1.com since '98 like me would remember that too. IIRC the only difference was sway bars and the 17" rims/tires after that date, prior to then springs, shocks and bushings were also all upgraded on WS6s.

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    I've been a longtime LS1.com member and recall the thread you reference, but haven't been able to find it either!

    To clarify, do you recall it saying that the change occurred in Nov of the 2000 model year (actually Nov '99) or in Nov 00?

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    Fuzzbuster Jr. fluke's Avatar
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    You know.. I don't think anyone has ever done THIS in one of these threads before. Not arguing gains.. but here is what's in it.

    My original window sticker (from the first owner, I'm the second):


    My 2002 Pontiac Trans Am WS6... ASC# 1244 ... Born on June 23, 2001

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella View Post
    I've been a longtime LS1.com member and recall the thread you reference, but haven't been able to find it either!

    To clarify, do you recall it saying that the change occurred in Nov of the 2000 model year (actually Nov '99) or in Nov 00?
    Ugh, now that you say that, I can't remember for sure. "Nov 2000" stuck in my brain for some reason, so if that's correct, the early-build '01s would not have been effected by this change. But I can't say for sure that it wasn't Nov '99 and that it affected the 2000-MY production run. Has it been 8 years already?? Going to have to keep searching.......

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag View Post
    Ugh, now that you say that, I can't remember for sure. "Nov 2000" stuck in my brain for some reason, so if that's correct, the early-build '01s would not have been effected by this change. But I can't say for sure that it wasn't Nov '99 and that it affected the 2000-MY production run. Has it been 8 years already?? Going to have to keep searching.......
    Edit....... found this:

    2001

    1. A small percentage of 2001 and 2002 LS1s actually had LS6 blocks which had a different part number and a darker metal cast
    2. Starting 2001, all LS1s came with an LS6 intake manifold without an EGR system
    3. Advertised HP output was changed from 305 to 310 on base LS1s and from 320 to 325 on WS6s and SSs
    4. 2001-02 cars have a smaller cam from the Vortec truck engines to increase low end torque
    5. 2001-02 cars had 28 lb fuel injectors like the 98 cars (albeit different part numbers)
    6. WS6 cars had a redesigned 5 spoke rim which was more wavy
    7. WS6 cars got less suspension upgrades from a base Trans Am suspension than previous years
    8. Manual transmission cars came with upgraded clutch and associated hydraulics compared to the earlier years.
    http://www.afbforums.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1229

    Identical data here too:

    http://www.ls1fbody.com/Model_Year_Differences.htm

    http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...e-camaros.html

    So unless they got their info from my faded memory somehow, this seems to collaborate my "Nov 00" recollection effecting the majority of the '01 production run.

    Although, now that I keep searching, found another reference that somewhat implies the change happened in late '99:

    Haha, yeah i can see where all the confusion came from, cause he did call the WS6 package the "ram air" package. Reality is that the ram air is just another little goodie in the entire WS6 package. To answer your question Sean, yes, any car that is a true WS6 will have much more than just the ram air hood and airbox.

    Ram Air hood
    WS6 raised lower air box
    32mm front sway bar
    1LE springs (for '98, '99, and some '00s)
    WS6 badging & Ram Air decals
    Lower restriction catback
    17" high polished wheels w/ 275/40/ZR17 tires (i believe you can also get the 16" chrome rims, as Sue has told me before when i first bought my WS6)
    Jounce spacers for 17X9" wheels
    Power steering cooler

    Also, on pretty much every WS6 i have seen has the 3.23 rear end gearing...and i'm pretty sure that every WS6 is fully loaded with all the options as well :-)
    http://www.theformulasource.com/foru...hp/t14265.html
    Last edited by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag; 04-17-2008 at 09:18 AM. Reason: must...keep....searching....for....truth

  19. #39
    Senior Member jrc1122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluke View Post
    You know.. I don't think anyone has ever done THIS in one of these threads before. Not arguing gains.. but here is what's in it.

    My original window sticker (from the first owner, I'm the second):

    Click for full size

    Add Traction Control, and you have my car (minus color)

  20. #40
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    the only real difference is looks.

    If you want the ram air hood, it will cost you around $1500 or so to get it done right to match thepaint which will be slightly faded. If you need the hood,I'd jst get a ws6 instead of worrying if the body shop will paint it right.

    Also, there are the 17" wheels. Other than that, its all slight upgrades that do almost nothing.

    The exhaust is slightly louder and better flow, but if you want more horsepower, that still needs to go.

    The suspension is very slightly better, but still not that good. If you want to autox save the expense of a ws6 and get a t/a and install konis.

    The ram air hood makes more power, but only at very high speeds. Unless you plan on road coursing a lot, it won't makeadifference.

    The tiresare wider, but still not wide enoughfor a hardcore drag racer. If you go a lot save the money for wider rims/tires.

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