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cracked door panels ?

This is a discussion on cracked door panels ? within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; 024mula....... If i am really honest i cannot see that being a direction i would go. I am not sure ...

  1. #81
    Member speedyWS6's Avatar
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    024mula.......

    If i am really honest i cannot see that being a direction i would go.

    I am not sure when you say "General Sealant" whether this is a brand i am not familiar with or it is a multi purpose sealant widely available, but it is obviously not epoxy.

    I have just re-read the repair process in the link and they do indeed just "smear on" a big puddle of epoxy on the back area! I just cannot see this as the best possible option. To my mind the crack can just re-appear as there is no backing to really splint and strengthen the area?! You only have to do this the once so i really would go the extra mile and do it properly.

    I have been thinking whilst typing and a good solution to what to use on the back of the crack would be one of those bondo/plastic filler spreaders which you get a couple of with a large tin?! Maybe try and put some shape into it by some creases or something and bond to the back with the adhesive i suggest! (although it is called a "sealant, it is a tenacious adhesive also)

    Trust me..... it'll work.... Once and properly!! This is of course also doing the staple pry out and make good process also !!

    Trev... ) Keep me posted!!!!!

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Good advice speedyWS6, I will keep you posted on what I do.

    Right now, I just removed all the screws I could find from the door panel (thinking that might relieve any harmful pressure) I'm affaid its too cold out in the garage (about 38 degrees) to start manhandling the plastic panel around. I'm working on locating a heater.

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    I would use a wire mesh or something similar. Lay down some epoxy, press the mesh into it, and then smooth it over with more epoxy. That would be your strongest repair as long as you achieve a good bond.

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    I would use a wire mesh or something similar. Lay down some epoxy, press the mesh into it, and then smooth it over with more epoxy. That would be your strongest repair as long as you achieve a good bond.
    THATS a good ideal, Thank You!

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    Member speedyWS6's Avatar
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    Jeff....

    This an excellent idea and you would get good penetration and bonding with a mesh!!!

    But..... I will have to say i wouldn't use epoxy. I DO realise it is an excellent glue, i really do, but our door panels (like any form of plastic) are not porous in any way and i still maintain a good polyurethane sealant ( as an adhesive) would be superior in this application, after a damn good scratch/abrade of the surfaces to be be bonded. By it's very nature it will cure with a very slight flexibility to it whereas epoxy dries hard and brittle

    I have experience of both, plus loads of others in my work as a college lecturer in design and technology and my panel is still as good as the day i did the repair! The product i used was Sikkaflex 221 and this link will go a way to explaining!! http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sf221-ind-us.pdf It is rather a long winded PDF file but basically apply,spread,and bring together the two layers.

    Please believe me that a well roughed up surface and a good layer of this product or a very similar type will be spot on ( maybe lightly clamped whilst curing, also)...

    I am an old git now, well... not that old.... and have seen it all in my work over the years!! Keep me posred

    Trev... )

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    Trev - thanks for the info. I have heard of Sika before and believe it is available in our area. I agree that you have to match the bonding agent to the material for it to work. I haven't posted this yet, but our driver door does have a crack so I will be performing the recommended repair and relieving the pressure on the passenger side panel as well.

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    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    I put the epoxy I got from Walmart on my panel on Sunday and it's still tacky. I don't think it will ever dry/harden.

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedyWS6 View Post
    Jeff....

    This an excellent idea and you would get good penetration and bonding with a mesh!!!

    But..... I will have to say i wouldn't use epoxy. I DO realise it is an excellent glue, i really do, but our door panels (like any form of plastic) are not porous in any way and i still maintain a good polyurethane sealant ( as an adhesive) would be superior in this application, after a damn good scratch/abrade of the surfaces to be be bonded. By it's very nature it will cure with a very slight flexibility to it whereas epoxy dries hard and brittle

    I have experience of both, plus loads of others in my work as a college lecturer in design and technology and my panel is still as good as the day i did the repair! The product i used was Sikkaflex 221 and this link will go a way to explaining!! http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sf221-ind-us.pdf It is rather a long winded PDF file but basically apply,spread,and bring together the two layers.

    Please believe me that a well roughed up surface and a good layer of this product or a very similar type will be spot on ( maybe lightly clamped whilst curing, also)...

    I am an old git now, well... not that old.... and have seen it all in my work over the years!! Keep me posred

    Trev... )
    Hi Trev,

    So you think/know Sikkaflex 221 is better than epoxy?
    The reason I am asking is, I just taken my door panels off and there laying on my kitchen floor warming up.
    As you know my doors panels do not have a single crack. So I'm trying to decide on what kind of bonding agant to put on the inside of the panel to streangthen it.

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    I put the epoxy I got from Walmart on my panel on Sunday and it's still tacky. I don't think it will ever dry/harden.
    How cold is it where you live?

    The directions reads that it will cure in 4 hours at 72 degrees.


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    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 024mula View Post
    How cold is it where you live?

    The directions reads that it will cure in 4 hours at 72 degrees.

    Door panel's in my living room at 70'. I'm thinking it's just cause it came from Walmart..??

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    Door panel's in my living room at 70'. I'm thinking it's just cause it came from Walmart..??
    Maybe all epoxy's are not equal?

    I got some epoxy from Walmart also and its called "Permatex Perma Poxy" General Purpose Epoxy. I was going to put it on tomorrow, but now I'm going to wait and hear what everbody else on hear has to say on the matter?

    If you used the wrong kind on yours, can you scrape it off with a stiff putty knife?

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    Phew....

    A lot of things going on here!!

    INMY01TA..... I would imagine your epoxy product was a 50/50 mix and a good stir? I can only imagine the mix (whatever the advised ratio) was not completely followed or as you intimate further on down that it was an inferior brand? If you have the pieces at 70 degrees then that is more than enough to promote curing. better brand needed i guess but as you know i would not suggest epoxy at all!!!

    So, 024mula..... you are pretty lucky to have no cracks, thats's for sure and acting now should forever prevent them! My passenger door had no crack but i still did all of this as a preventative measure. So long as you do ALL of the staple removal in the HighperformancePontiac link followed by your choice of re-do (Little nuts/bolts or lesser gauge wire), and also taking delight in the panel breathing a sigh of relief at this point, then the mesh as Jeff suggested ( great idea ) or a further patch of ABS or some other sheet plastic bonded in place with a polyurethane adhesive ( please, please!!) then all would be great!! When you do it i would very much suggest a good amount thoroughly spread on EACH ( VERY scratched and roughd up )surface and then to bring the two "wetted" surfaces together, which is better than one dry surface being brought to one spread surface.
    I might add that there are other brands of polyurethane sealant out there which are pretty much the same make up and would do fine. "Tiger seal" is one and i would wager they are all aimed at the automotive market as you can find many forums where the members are talking about their use and how to bond things like panels together..... have a quick look here http://snipurl.com/1qjxd9, as it was the result of a quick google and sounds like proof( but i must stress i AM NOT A RICER!!!!) Also... this is not a "make a cup of coffee and it's done" adhesive!! It will need all night in a warm spot to cure right through ( with a light clamping, perhaps). It "skins over in a couple of hours but not right through so don't be tempted.....

    As far as the "not set" epoxy goes, INMY01TA, then yes it may scrape off with a putty knife... but properly set epoxy will be pretty brittle and will almost "ping" off in chunks if dug at!!

    024mula.... ,you are dead right in saying that not all epoxies are equal! Any good brand like a Loctite product or "Araldite" ( you guys may not have this?) will do a good bond, but NOT on non porous ABS ! I have just had a look at the permatex site and there are 1/3/30 minute general purpose epoxies!! Not familiar with this brand and who knows... but i will say it cites "hard plastics" and yes ... maybe our panels are hard but not in the sense of , say, a thick square of Acrylic, Plexiglas... call it what you will.

    Changing direction slightly, shavings of ABS with acetone applied in a cup to make a "sludge" could also work as it "becomes one" with the ABS of the panel when used as the "paste" for glueing but i did trials and it was just a bit too hit and miss to be reliable

    Hope this is all of merit.... and keep me posted!

    Trev... )

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Lets re-cap:

    Heres what I plan on doing: First of all, I have no cracks in my panels.
    1. Clean the entire lenght of the inside of the panel with Acetone (nail polish remover) let it dry thoughly.
    2. Apply a coat of epoxy along the entire lenght of the inside of the panel.
    3. Place a long strip of screen (window screen) on top of the epoxy.
    4. Apply another coat of epoxy on top of the screen.
    5. Let it dry for 12 hours before putting the panel back on the car.

    Is there anything else I should do?

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    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 024mula View Post
    Lets re-cap:

    Heres what I plan on doing: First of all, I have no cracks in my panels.
    1. Clean the entire lenght of the inside of the panel with Acetone (nail polish remover) let it dry thoughly.
    2. Apply a coat of epoxy along the entire lenght of the inside of the panel.
    3. Place a long strip of screen (window screen) on top of the epoxy.
    4. Apply another coat of epoxy on top of the screen.
    5. Let it dry for 12 hours before putting the panel back on the car.

    Is there anything else I should do?
    uhh, remove the staples...

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    Oooohh....

    024mula.... Please re-read my whole last post! I am after you doing this right the first time.

    If i read you right you plan on laying down epoxy along the WHOLE length of the panel, on the inside... NOT NEEDED! As INMY01TA highlights... you MUST remove the staples. If not all, then in the immediate area of the crack ( i know you have none), but i bet there is a small sign of the panel doing it's "thing" right where they WILL occur if you don't follow the Highperformance link very accurately. Here are three pics of mine ....




    They just show the before and after attainable, and yes the middle pic is after the repair and virtually invisible. Also note the big angry staple holding it all together... these are the culprits! You don't even have any yet!!!!

    Going back to your acetone suggestion for a clean...nuthin' wrong with that at all.... but you MUST, MUST heavily scratch and roughen up the panel in the glueing area for a good bond as my first pic shows a smooth surface which is not very good for adherance!

    having said all of this about the glues and prep work... you have no cracks, so the first thing is GET THEM STAPLES OUT, and let the panel "relax". I just re-read one of your earlier posts and you ask about "strengthening" your panel. This is not strictly speaking what were doing here with no cracks. We are "preventing" and so GET THEM STAPLES OUT and re-affix with lighter gauge wire or the little nuts and bolts... both allowing a very small degree of movement and thus no panel stress!!

    keep me posted

    Trev... )
    Last edited by speedyWS6; 12-30-2010 at 02:33 AM.

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    Heres what I did, but first let me tell you that I thought my door panels were crack free - I was wrong, there is a small crack on the drivers door panel (I thought it was a spring thread at first).............

    the back (inside)............................kinda blurry but its there......

    These about nine staples they put in the door and they are REALLY tight............

    The tools I used to remove the staples........................

    I didn't remove all the staples but I did loosen (by bending them so they are loose) the staples I did leave in were the staples on either end and two in the middle, so they all are spaced eqauly but not so one of the staples is at a weak point in the door..............................(if you look close you can see them)............

    Then I cleaned the area to be epoxyed with a cleaner...............(rubbing alcohol)..........

    Then I put the epoxy glue on.............................(first I scuffed it up with a wire brush)..............

    This is how I had the panels proped and ready for epoxy.............................

    After applying the epoxy now I wait until I think its dry enough.

    I hope this helps.

  17. #97
    Member speedyWS6's Avatar
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    Mmmmm....

    I do to, and you have done a good job towards not having the crack go any further but i have to be honest and say i would have followed pajeff's idea of a mesh of some kind to help re-inforce the area concerned.

    Not to take away any from your efforts though..... they are good, and this job can be a right pain in the butt If you are doing both panels i would have a good look, and at least do the staple removal and your choice of "fix" on the passenger door panel as i said earlier... prevention is going to be better than a cure! The staple removal and subsequent re-do with lighter wire or nuts/bolts aspect of this job cannot be stressed highly enough. You actually have said the staples are "REALLY tight............" Proof enough as to why the weatherstripping and panel cannot get along together without this intervention

    I hope it all comes good for you!!

    Trev... )

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    I could probaly put a screen on top of the glue thats on there on (its only been one hour) and then add more epoxy?

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    024mula 024mula's Avatar
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    I allready put two small lengths of allumium window screen untop of the epoxy on the passenger door panel that already set up. And a full length of screen on the drivers door panel.

    Looks good.

    P.S. Happy New Year!

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    Member speedyWS6's Avatar
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    Nice work!!

    I reckon that will be a good addition to the repair!!!!!

    And happy new year to you too

    Trev.... )

    And i might add.... a very happy new year to one and all on this great site!!

    Last edited by speedyWS6; 12-31-2010 at 11:05 AM.

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