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Bone Stock '00 WS6 having problems

This is a discussion on Bone Stock '00 WS6 having problems within the Firebird / WS6 forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; I thought there was a service bulletin on bad cats? And right now your car is running in poen loop ...

  1. #41
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    I thought there was a service bulletin on bad cats?
    And right now your car is running in poen loop so your car isn't adjusting to different conditions while driving around. New o2 sensors, i'd recommend acdelco or denso.

  2. #42
    Junior Member Jknerr's Avatar
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    Do you live in a state that does emmision testing? If so it may be worth a few buck to get it checked out, not because us v8 drivers care about the environment so much, but if your car is running clean that will help you decide what needs replaced. If you cat is jammed or dirty, or has excessive moisture you will get a bad o2 sensor code from the post cat sensors, because they are reading just like they are supposed too, and good 02 sensors cost between 25 and 60$ a piece, so no point in swapping two if they are just doing their job.

    Just so your aware I am new to the T/A scene so if there is a common problem with the o2 sensors i am unaware, but as a former mechanic, i found that allot of people just assume a code means they need replaced.

    Also, I saw above that you had spoken about needing a tune up. Because your car is fuel injected you cant really tune like an older car, but a GREAT idea is to take it in for a fuel system service. In indiana walmart actually has a bg fuel cleaning that is what most shops charge 60 to 80 for, but at the one close to me it only cost about 15. This is about the same as putting seafoam in, which is also awesome S*%, but if you use seafoam read the amounts on the bottle for treating your gas, dont just pour it down the tank!

    Good luck and keep posting.

  3. #43
    Junior Member Jknerr's Avatar
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    After though,

    If your car is running in open loop for to long, they often go into a limp home mode for sever engine problems or sever emissions. This definitely isn't happening if your car is running 15s, but with most cheap scan tools you can see if the car is in an open loop after running for about 15 minutes. If this is the case it means that there is probably an engine problem, not a cat problem, but that would probably come with different codes.

    Sorry for rambling, but if your worried about your o2 sensors, you can check them with a multimeter, just look up the voltage specs and see what they run. There is probably someone here with more experience with that than me that could tell you what wires to read. Also this may be in chiltons

  4. #44
    Junior Member Jknerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6Dream View Post
    p0137


    Edit: Also, how would these codes affect the performance of my car? Does the computer do something to make it not run like it should?
    Kinda, The compute generally just pops up a light and a code when trouble occurs to some frequency. IE it wont pop a code for a single cylinder missfire, but if it happens multiple times in 30s.

    Beyond this, the computer will only limit your power if it is in limp home mode, because it will cause damage itself or pollute. Any other losses in power is due to the problem that prompted the light, or the computer's attempt to fix that problem.

    Also note that ALLOT of common problems like damaged valves, burnt rings, and frozen injectors will only prompt a light down stream in an o2 sensor. But dont worry i doubt your problem is that sever.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot91 View Post
    I thought there was a service bulletin on bad cats?
    And right now your car is running in poen loop so your car isn't adjusting to different conditions while driving around. New o2 sensors, i'd recommend acdelco or denso.

    Your car won't run in open loop if there is a problem with the rear O2s. It *may* if there is a problem with the front O2s. The main function of the rear O2s is to determine the cats' ability to store O2, which will tell the PCM if they are working or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jknerr View Post
    Do you live in a state that does emmision testing? If so it may be worth a few buck to get it checked out, not because us v8 drivers care about the environment so much, but if your car is running clean that will help you decide what needs replaced. If you cat is jammed or dirty, or has excessive moisture you will get a bad o2 sensor code from the post cat sensors, because they are reading just like they are supposed too, and good 02 sensors cost between 25 and 60$ a piece, so no point in swapping two if they are just doing their job.

    Just so your aware I am new to the T/A scene so if there is a common problem with the o2 sensors i am unaware, but as a former mechanic, i found that allot of people just assume a code means they need replaced.

    Also, I saw above that you had spoken about needing a tune up. Because your car is fuel injected you cant really tune like an older car, but a GREAT idea is to take it in for a fuel system service. In indiana walmart actually has a bg fuel cleaning that is what most shops charge 60 to 80 for, but at the one close to me it only cost about 15. This is about the same as putting seafoam in, which is also awesome S*%, but if you use seafoam read the amounts on the bottle for treating your gas, dont just pour it down the tank!

    Good luck and keep posting.
    Not exactly sure what you mean by "jambed, dirty or excessive moisture". The only way it can get excessive moisture would be from coolant, like a head gasket failure. Converters usually operate ~600 degrees, so there won't be any water in there.....

    Anyway OP, both those O2 codes are for the rear O2 sensor, they are reporting that they are lean too long (not enough fuel). The other code (420) is a cat efficiency code, our cars are too old for the free recall. It means your cat. conv. can't store O2 very well, so therefor it cannot clean up your exhaust well, either. Usually clogged/partially clogged cats will NOT set any code, but WILL drastically affect performance.

    So, just put some LTs/ORY to fix that! J/K, but that would fix it, but then your SES light would be on until you get it tuned out.

    You could try unplugging your MAF and see how it runs that way. If it is a big improvement, buy a new GM MAF, clear all the codes and you should be golden. But, what is your fuel pressure? With those rear O2s reporting lean, that could be from not enough fuel, or the MAF reporting airflow wrong, to name 2 causes. Usually the front O2s will report lean as well, but maybe the actual problem is just beginnig to show itself.

  6. #46
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    ^^ I may not be understanding you correctly... but, the aftercat O2's have nothing to do with a car's fueling. They simply tell the PCM if the cats are working properly. I do not believe they have any impact on whether the PCM runs in open or closed loop either. That is primarily determined by the engine coolant temp if I recall.

  7. #47
    Junior Member Jknerr's Avatar
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    Im not positive, but i think ls1 have heated o2 sensors, so when they reach operationg temperature they tell the computer to switch from open ot closed.

    also cat moiture is from water, but it is water vapor. high humidity (not sure this is correct word for this) or water vapor in the cat prevents it from propery converting emissions correctly. Im dont know what casues the water vapor to stay in the cat though, but it can cause bad o2 sensor readings.

  8. #48
    Chief of his tribe! LSCyaL8R's Avatar
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    I ran a 13.7 bone stock in serious need of a driver mod with an M6. Not long after that run my SES light was on. Turned out to be the MAF. I didn't even really take it out either. Just undid the lid and blasted it with some carb cleaner. POOF! SES light went away and car ran great.

    Have a couple mods now. Know a bit better how to launch and have a clean MAF and new plugs.... hoping to see low 13s this year.

  9. #49
    Junior Member Jknerr's Avatar
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    Too fast is right above. I didn't think about that, but open and closed loop only deals with the front o2 sensors.

  10. #50
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    Just got done unplugging the MAF and running the car with it off... can you say whole different car???

    That is DEFINITELY my problem.

    I will be cleaning it soon to see if that makes it better, if not I am going to be replacing it.

  11. #51
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    Glad you got positive results

  12. #52
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    ^^ I may not be understanding you correctly... but, the aftercat O2's have nothing to do with a car's fueling. They simply tell the PCM if the cats are working properly. I do not believe they have any impact on whether the PCM runs in open or closed loop either. That is primarily determined by the engine coolant temp if I recall.
    That's what I used to think. But in working on cars for over 25 years, I've found some unusual things happen. Sometimes the post-cat O2s have some effect on fueling, buy not on our cars that I've seen yet. And you're right about the car being up to temp first, then relying on O2 reports, to run in closed loop.

    I was saying that if it was a fuel quantity issue, that it could be just starting, and the rear O2s could've been the first to notice, and the front O2s were close to setting a lean code as well. Since OP had lean on both banks, I would look for something in common to both banks, like the MAF or fuel pressure/volume, first.

    Glad to see OP found the problem, sometimes it's very difficult to diagnose cars from limited info, that's why I don't always jump into threads like these. But codes help!

  13. #53
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the help.

    It seems, right now, that the MAF is the only problem with my car.

    I haven't cleaned my MAF yet, so that may fix it. But if it doesn't and I need a new one, what should I get?

    GM quoted me $305 for a new MAF... should I buy it? Get a different one? What does everyone on here recommend?

  14. #54
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6Dream View Post
    Thanks for all the help.

    It seems, right now, that the MAF is the only problem with my car.

    I haven't cleaned my MAF yet, so that may fix it. But if it doesn't and I need a new one, what should I get?

    GM quoted me $305 for a new MAF... should I buy it? Get a different one? What does everyone on here recommend?
    I think i might have a spare in my garage i can ship to you cheap, pretty sure it works fine if you wanna try it
    Gotta make sure you get a stock GM MAF, aftermarket ones can mess with your A/F ratio and trans line pressure
    Last edited by tatertot91; 04-02-2011 at 08:20 AM.

  15. #55
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot91 View Post
    I think i might have a spare in my garage i can ship to you cheap, pretty sure it works fine if you wanna try it
    Gotta make sure you get a stock GM MAF, aftermarket ones can mess with your A/F ratio and trans line pressure
    Ok, pm me how much you want for it. I'm going to clean mine and see what happens. I can't really mess it up any more than it already is, right?

  16. #56
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6Dream View Post
    Ok, pm me how much you want for it. I'm going to clean mine and see what happens. I can't really mess it up any more than it already is, right?
    Its just the sensor, not the housing but you can swap it with yours, just let me run the numbers on it and make sure its not aftermarket, its been a while

  17. #57
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tatertot91 View Post
    Its just the sensor, not the housing but you can swap it with yours, just let me run the numbers on it and make sure its not aftermarket, its been a while
    Ok thanks.

  18. #58
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    I cleaned it and it seems to be running better. I will know for sure later when I get to drive the car longer when I go to work.

  19. #59
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    i checked mine and i'm not sure its a gm one or not
    the sticker with the part # has been removed
    I can mail it to you for the price of shipping if yours doesn't work out
    just lemme know

  20. #60
    Member WS6Dream's Avatar
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    Alright thanks. I cleaned what I could and it seems to be running better but I want to clean it again.

    What parts do I need to clean exactly? and with the screen on the MAF, I can't really get the "front" part, although I can easily access the back to spray and clean it.

    Do I need to remove the screen? If so, how?

    Also is there any other method to cleaning the MAF? I am almost out of MAF spray cleaner and may not want to spend $8 on another can if there is another household product that will clean it just as effectively.

    Thanks

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