02 WS6-Hard time starting in the Morning

**jayfire** · 07-14-2014, 03:40 PM

I have an 02 WS6 M6 with 78K miles. Only engine mods are ported and polished TB and SLP lid. My problem is, I go out in the morning about 6am to start it and its around 60 degrees and I turn it to start, I have to hold it there for 10-15 seconds before it fires up. Then no problems after that. Now, I can do the same thing, but around 1pm when its 90 degrees outside and it will fire up quick with no problems. The only difference in the two senarios is outside temp. What I have done so far with no improvements are: new battery, new starter, checked what I can see of wires, replaced all fuses and relays that deal with ignition and starting. Tried both keys. I don't know, maybe the ignition switch or the VATS has something to do with it? It seems to be temperature tempermental! Help, I don't want to go to the stealership! Any thoughts or suggestions?

**pajeff02** · 07-14-2014, 06:26 PM

I would start by checking the fuel pressure at the rail. Sounds like what our Suburban did when the pump started to go out of it.

**jayfire** · 07-15-2014, 07:57 AM

Update: just to clarify, its not turning over sluggish or having a hard time starting, the starter is not engaging for 10-15 seconds while the key is in the start position. It did it again this morning, but I drove it to work this morning 15 miles, got to work, shut it off and tried to restart and same delay happened but was only 3 seconds of holding the key on start before the starter engaged and fired up.

**pajeff02** · 07-15-2014, 06:07 PM

Ok - that changes my answer completely. Could be in the ignition switch or column as everything else has been swapped out. An easy test would be a remote starter switch that clips on to the solenoid. If the engine immediately cranks with the remote switch engaged, but not with the ignition then that should narrow it down for you.

**jayfire** · 07-15-2014, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by pajeff02

Ok - that changes my answer completely. Could be in the ignition switch or column as everything else has been swapped out. An easy test would be a remote starter switch that clips on to the solenoid. If the engine immediately cranks with the remote switch engaged, but not with the ignition then that should narrow it down for you.

Thanks, I will give that a try after I go buy one this friday. It sucks that it only does this in the cooler mornings, that limits my chances of finding my problem. I will post my findings. Thanks again.

**pajeff02** · 07-16-2014, 02:27 AM

You can perform some tests with a multimeter to see what is happening when you turn the key. If you need a schematic for the ignition system and instructions, let me know.

**jayfire** · 07-16-2014, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by pajeff02

You can perform some tests with a multimeter to see what is happening when you turn the key. If you need a schematic for the ignition system and instructions, let me know.

This is what I have tried so far. I put 12 volts to the new starter while it was out and it engages right away. I checked for 12 volts during the hot part of the day when everything works good, with the starter out and just checking the wire, I get 12 volts right away when the key is turned to start. I left everything the way it was the day before and checked the voltage going to the starter in the cooler morning, and with the key turned, I still get the 12 volts right away. So why would two starters, getting 12 volts to the solenoid in the cool mornings have a delay, and not a problem when its warmer outside?

**pajeff02** · 07-16-2014, 05:58 PM

In addition to the proper voltage - you need amperage to engage the starter. A single strand of wire can transmit 12 volts... but it will not allow enough amps through to do much of anything. I guess it could be corrosion, bad connections or a faulty wire somewhere. This being said, it is just an odd issue especially as it consistently fails only under a certain set of circumstances.

**Bgw70** · 07-17-2014, 03:06 AM

I found a thread that describes all of the sensors within our cars, it is located here on this web site.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/f6/list-se...hey-do-159572/
I am not suggesting that you begin the process of replacing them but it is important for us to understand what they do because some of them are part of the start sequence.
I would appear that it seems to be temperature related. I say that because I have the opposite problem as you. Mine starts fine when the engine is cold but after warm up and I park for 15 plus min, the car starts hard. When warm I will turn to start for about one second, release, wait three seconds, then it starts right up. I do not believe it is the fuel pump because it appears to be temperature related also.
Okay enough of my problem because this is your thread and your problem we want to help you with.
I agree with the recommendation stated earlier to check the fuel rail pressure. An auto parts store will normally loan you one at no cost, just check around.
If the starter is turning the engine over at a normal speed then IMHO would say your battery and starter assembly are fine. Are they? I believe you said they were new.

**jayfire** · 07-17-2014, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Bgw70

I found a thread that describes all of the sensors within our cars, it is located here on this web site.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/f6/list-se...hey-do-159572/
I am not suggesting that you begin the process of replacing them but it is important for us to understand what they do because some of them are part of the start sequence.
I would appear that it seems to be temperature related. I say that because I have the opposite problem as you. Mine starts fine when the engine is cold but after warm up and I park for 15 plus min, the car starts hard. When warm I will turn to start for about one second, release, wait three seconds, then it starts right up. I do not believe it is the fuel pump because it appears to be temperature related also.
Okay enough of my problem because this is your thread and your problem we want to help you with.
I agree with the recommendation stated earlier to check the fuel rail pressure. An auto parts store will normally loan you one at no cost, just check around.
If the starter is turning the engine over at a normal speed then IMHO would say your battery and starter assembly are fine. Are they? I believe you said they were new.

Yes, starter, battery, cables, relays, fuses are all new. I don't understand how the fuel rail pressure has anything to do with why the starter will not engage at all with the key in the start position for 10-15 seconds in 70 degree weather, but has no problems at all in 90 degree weather. Is there a sensor telling the ignition not to fire the starter until the fuel rails are up to a certain temp? I'm sure its getting pressure when the key is in the on position.

**Bgw70** · 07-17-2014, 09:43 AM

Let me make sure I am now clear on your problem, when the outside temp and engine are cool, you turn the ignition to the start position and nothing happens?
The starter does not move at all, no click, nothing?
Please confirm or correct.

**jayfire** · 07-17-2014, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bgw70

Let me make sure I am now clear on your problem, when the outside temp and engine are cool, you turn the ignition to the start position and nothing happens?
The starter does not move at all, no click, nothing?
Please confirm or correct.

Exactly! No click or nothing until I hold it there for 10-15 seconds then, Bam!! starter engages and fires right up. I even drove it 15 miles to work, shut it off and tried to restart again, and still get the starter delay but was only a 3 second delay before it fired back up. So even if the motor is warmed up, it still does it in the morning. Now, when I go to start it at 5:30pm, nothing wrong, fires right up. Weird??

**Bgw70** · 07-17-2014, 03:21 PM

Please observe and provide more indications so we can narrow down the possibilities. Go back out now, if able and turn the ignition on, but do not try to start it. Right after you turn the ignition to on, make sure the security light comes on, right side of the dash, then begin to count how long it stays on. It should be on approximately five seconds. After it goes off, attempt to start the car.
Do this now and do it again in the morning. We are confirming that you do not have an issue with the VATS II security system.

**jayfire** · 07-18-2014, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Bgw70

Please observe and provide more indications so we can narrow down the possibilities. Go back out now, if able and turn the ignition on, but do not try to start it. Right after you turn the ignition to on, make sure the security light comes on, right side of the dash, then begin to count how long it stays on. It should be on approximately five seconds. After it goes off, attempt to start the car.
Do this now and do it again in the morning. We are confirming that you do not have an issue with the VATS II security system.

Ok, I did what you asked. Last night, turned key on, security came on for 5 seconds then went off, car started up fine. Tried it this morning, security light came on for 5 seconds then went off, tried to start it and still nothing. I have not noticed any other problems with any features of the car other than this. All windows, radio, locks work with no problems.

**Bgw70** · 07-18-2014, 12:22 PM

I will need to think about this more...I will look for a schematic of the ignition system...
Because it appears to have something with temperature leads me to believe it could be a sensor.
Can you come up with any additional symptoms or information?

**pajeff02** · 07-19-2014, 03:46 AM

As far as starting the car and energizing the ignition circuit to the starter, the only sensors that have to pass muster are either the park/neutral switch on an A4 or a clutch switch on an M6. I supposed that cold versus warm one of these could act sluggish as they are both essentially a spring loaded switch.

**Bgw70** · 07-19-2014, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by pajeff02

As far as starting the car and energizing the ignition circuit to the starter, the only sensors that have to pass muster are either the park/neutral switch on an A4 or a clutch switch on an M6. I supposed that cold versus warm one of these could act sluggish as they are both essentially a spring loaded switch.

Hey jeff! Thanks for jumping back in here, his issue is very odd. You sound like you really know these cars! Is there a start relay in the circuit? I thought I read somewhere that these car have a starter relay...thoughts?

**Bgw70** · 07-19-2014, 07:19 AM

here is an ignition wiring diagram for the 98-02 T/A.
let me know if you require help reading it.
the circuit has the following, ignition switch (key), starter relay, body control module (BCM) relay and the starter. the question is what item could cause a delay? i say it has something to do with the BCM
Attachment 25865

**Bgw70** · 07-19-2014, 07:25 AM

Swap the Ignition and Starter relays around, see attached picture. Make sure the contacts are clean on both relays.
Also, loosen the ground wire and make sure it is clean makes a good connection. You will see the ground wire in the picture, it is black and connects to the white chassis with a bolt.

See if any of your symptoms change...
Attachment 25866

Let me know.

**jayfire** · 07-19-2014, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bgw70

Swap the Ignition and Starter relays around, see attached picture. Make sure the contacts are clean on both relays.

See if any of your symptoms change...

I have done that. First swapped them with the fan relays, then with 2 new ones and nothing. I did however change out the ignition switch yesterday morning and after a few adjustments, it fired right up. It just had a 2-3 second delay before all the lights and dings came on, in the on position. I put it all back together and drove it and started it yesterday with no problems. I went out this morning and turned it to on position and it still took 3-4 seconds before it would power up with the lights and dings, but....fired right up when key went to start!. This problem only happend the first time. After it started, everything went back to normal and fired everytime. So I am hoping the ignition switch was the culprit, but the no power in the on position first thing in the morning has me wondering if the adjustment could still be off?

I did find a broken spring when I pulled the lower panel out, it just fell out in two pieces. I have no idea what that went to. It was black, about 1-1.5" long. I don't know if I still have a problem and it just needs more adjustments or what. Thanks for everyones help. Almost there!!