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What do you do?

This is a discussion on What do you do? within the Camaro / SS forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by WARP211 But then again FORD has to put a supercharger on a mustang to beat a camaro.. ...

  1. #21
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARP211 View Post
    But then again FORD has to put a supercharger on a mustang to beat a camaro.. I guess they can't do it with motor..
    I hate that reasoning.

    The motor is smaller but has a blower.
    Ford guys will say GM can't do it without larger displacement.
    Never ending and stupid to be honest. Doesn't matter how the power is made, as long as it is there.

    Supercharge a Camaro = $5400 and 450 RWHP (no mods other than blower)
    Pulley, chip, exhaust the Cobra = $1200 and 460 RWHP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    I hate that reasoning.

    The motor is smaller but has a blower.
    Ford guys will say GM can't do it without larger displacement.
    Never ending and stupid to be honest. Doesn't matter how the power is made, as long as it is there.

    Supercharge a Camaro = $5400 and 450 RWHP (no mods other than blower)
    Pulley, chip, exhaust the Cobra = $1200 and 460 RWHP
    yeah but it makes you feel good when you do it with all motor.. To me force induction.. its just cheatin... but then again that my opinion on it.. and the LS-1 doesn't really have lots of cubes.. its smaller than a 350.. 346 to be exact.. yeah ford has a small 4.6L which is 278-283 cui.. But now the got the 302cui.. and its coming out.. can you say BOSS...

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    That is the reason I went the route I did.
    I make the power I make with nothing more than a motor.

    But to me it doesn't matter how it makes the power. Just so long as it gets you down the track quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    That is the reason I went the route I did.
    I make the power I make with nothing more than a motor.

    But to me it doesn't matter how it makes the power. Just so long as it gets you down the track quickly.

    that one wall to look at it..

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    I haven't compared them for myself. But...

    1) Ford's HP numbers are a little over inflated compared to Chevy's (not a whole lot) but many independent and unbiased Dyno's showed this in the late 90's.

    2) HP numbers quoted by all MFR's are "peak". But compare the entire range of an LS1 to the 4.6, 5.0, whatever. (You can't drive at 1 specific RPM.)

    3) Torque, I think the LS1 makes this pretty good.

    4) You've never seen SLP Tuned Long Tubes @ work. Independent Dyno's back up SLP's HP gain claims. (40+, some near 50 gains, depending on package.)

    5) SLP Cats (pretty much ensures you get 40 from the Headers)

    6) MagnaFlow (many Dyno's show 10 -18HP)

    (With the exhaust alone I'm leaning towards an added 45HP. I ran my car open heads, I think it might actually have more with the current exhaust system.)

    7) SLP MAF, they say up to 10HP.

    8) K&N (who knows, you hear everything)

    9) EGR system bypass (no way you don't get 10 to 15HP, I've seen way too many tests on this)

    10??) The last owner put a Vette intake or modded it in some way to the LS6 intake or something, (I think he ported it or something) I honestly don't recall.
    He worked at a dealership and also had access to a HI-Pro shop (several I think) and a Dyno.

    I'd think you could pick up 25HP up front, with the exhaust system allowing the intake side to have better effect. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a little more, many chevy engines can get 20HP from the EGR mods.

    I could pretty easily have picked up 70HP. (The torque gains could be greater.)

    So my car could have 390 or a bit more. So many things come into play, not to mention you can roll to SS's off the line and one could have 317HP and another could have 332HP.

    Also I didn't ask my brother when he drove the Cobra. If he did this in September and then drove mine in January (when it was about 37degrees and 95% humidity) it could make a very significant difference.

    Which is a question I've thought about asking before, I can feel a notable difference in my power when it is cold and humid.

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    Bolt-ons get you around 350 RWHP for the most part.

    That is 30-40 over stock. Not 70-80.
    You do not lay down 390 RWHP without a cam.


    BTW...when I installed SLP longtubes and an LS6 intake I picked up all of 14 RWHP and 22 ft/pounds of torque.
    SLP's claims are bogus and very much bloated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y2KPewterSS View Post
    4 years ago, I could change oil and fill a car with gas and thats about it. Now on my second Camaro, I have done every single thing possible except a cam swap and build a shortblock. All suspension and bolt on mods are very simple. I do all my work in a one car garage with my 2 jacks, 4 jackstands, and creeper. Anything can be done if you have the desire to attempt it and the patience to follow through with it.
    I'm in the same boat about 4-5 years ago I did't know the first thing about cars other than I like them and I wanted a V8. Now years later I have built a 88 monte SS that I put a new 305 in then added heads+cam built tranny(had the tranny profesonally built) and some suspension. Before I sold it I built my first engine just a mild 350 nothing crazy. The Z28 has pretty much full bolt ons and a full suspension setup all done with my own two hands. I would recomend that everyone on does there own bolt on's it gives you pride in your car and gives you better knowledge on how everything works.

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    [QUOTE=Mr. Luos;629071]That is the reason I went the route I did.
    I make the power I make with nothing more than a motor.

    But to me it doesn't matter how it makes the power. Just so long as it gets you down the track quickly.[/QUOTE\

    I agree about the N/A route and agree about respecting what lays down the power too. I love to drive and run any car and im always excited regarless of the outcome. but......
    would you agree that this is alittle funny. the mother of all stangs,' the new gt500 has an aluminum, dual overhead cam, 5.4 liter engine out of a ford gt, a factory blower producing 8.5 pounds and laying down approx. 500 hp through a 6 speed gear box.
    the c6, not the z06, the c6 has a 6 liter, 16 valve pushrod aluminum engine producing approx. 400 hp.
    it clearly states in the car and driver test that the car with 100 more hp only out accelerated the lesser hp car in one category. 50mph-70mph lane change. i know that the weight difference is there but how can you justify this if you are ford? i dont know, i suppose im alittle bias towards chevy. but im more bias towards usable power. my question is, other than the nostalgic aspect, why would anyone purchase a new cobra for 70,000 when its being outclassed and overpowered by a base model vette (if there is such a thing)?

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    03/04 Cobra > GT500

    That car is such a pig. And it is butt ugly to top it off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    03/04 Cobra > GT500

    That car is such a pig. And it is butt ugly to top it off.
    no shit. the terminators were damn sweet and i would have no quirks and no apologies about owning one.

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    If it was all about the cam...then NASCAR wouldn't go ape $hit over 1/64" of an inch in restrictor plate violations. Increased lift and duration is great, but it, like most mods, including heads is about flow. Aspirated...heads are where the real power is, when you aren't talking about the crank/piston and compression ratio. And supercharers, which I think are pretty awesome, is all about flow in a way too. Increased pressure the other part of the triangle actually! It is always volume, pressure, and flow. Like voltage, current, resistance...it is a triangle that can't be cheated.

    To only get 14HP or anything that low out of Long-tube headers is crazy. Unless you had something else really restriciting your flow. Or you did not have a pre-mod dyno and a follow-up dyno performed (not on the same dyno). And the dollar to HP ratio in those slim increases are ridiculous...a waste of money, and guys have long bolted on new mods and went down to the strip to see what they shaved off their 1/4...headers would have disappeared long ago. Then the only real efficient mod would be a charger, you pay for a cam and heads from idle up in increased fuel consumption.

    But I'll be looking for a strip around here pretty soon, because everything is speculation and subjective...time doesn't lie.

    But I'll put it this way, when I had 275/40 R17 Yokohoma's on those run of the mill Vette rims my car still broke traction entering 4th at over 100mph (generally had my hands to full to be dead watching the speedo). And that is on dry black top.

    And I have watched guys with bigger cams in the same blocks get beat pretty good, you have to feed and match in a whole system approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BowTied View Post
    To only get 14HP or anything that low out of Long-tube headers is crazy. Unless you had something else really restriciting your flow. Or you did not have a pre-mod dyno and a follow-up dyno performed (not on the same dyno).
    Crazy eh??

    And they were SLP longtubes.
    Almost got to their bloated claims.

    Before and after were on the same dyno. The numbers I gave are exact.
    Tune was needed at the time to get the most out of the longtubes.
    But it still wouldn't have been ANYWHERE near 50HP.

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    Fords

    As for Fords, honestly I think the latest Stang looks good...but I've been hating Fords for a long time. (Nazi wagons as I call them, after their inventor.)

    And I am absolutely surrounded by Ford Fans. But I got one thing figured out, I hand them my keys, and they shut-up and don't have the first bad thing to say about my ride. And nothing about any F4 Camaro.

    It amazes me how many people don't know how good these cars are. Mustang was a complete joke until the latest redesign. In 96 I had a 94-Z28 and shut a many Proud Stang owner's mouth right up. Dudes who already a had a more expensive GT bolting on more and more of this and tha and still couldn't run with me. And my 99 has a whole lot more HP and Torque than my 94.

    My boss has a brand new GT and he tells everybody real quick his car won't touch mine. 2 brothers at work, Nazi Wagon Fans, one being a certified mechanic who worked for Ford had a "650HP" (note the quotes) Stang Big Block, Big Cam, Bi Heads who put huge money from engine to rear in his car (complete with a custom titanium drive shaft, you are prtty serious then.) he gets in the car and can't believe the Power and Torque I have. And that is hauling my 240lbs and his 290lbs along with 30lbs of crap in the back seat and hatch. While I'm really being conservative and shifting at 5-grand or so.

    I let people drive it and they are shifting at 4-grand, after talking about really lighting it up if they drive it. When we get out I tell them to imagine what it would do if I wasn't in the car (-240lbs) and they shifted at 6-grand.

    Fords....please. I got like $13.2K in my car. A Stang that would run with it would cost one Hell of a lot more! And don't even bring up a rice burner!

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    Wait a minute. Mr. Luos what is your elevation in Colorado?

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    I looked it up, you are a Mile High! Big difference, double penalty. Your base number before mods is going to be lower and implementing a flow increasing part is nowhere near as big. When the air is thinner, the best mod would be a cam. The air is thin enough the piston can more readily suck the air in, longer duration would really help. You still pay on the expansion stroke for having a less dense starting air, compression ratio doesn't change, but you can only compress what you pull in, and burn and expand off the same base.

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    Before and after are both affected by the lack of air.
    Our dyno's correct for the thin air, but tuning is a little different sometimes.

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    Most all dyno's have bogus elements to some degree. But one thing I know about is linearity and offsets, I doubt they correct...correctly, which probably makes tuning a bear.

    And tuned headers are probably a big waste, much comes from the pressure wave tuning to creat back pressure on the next exhausting cylinder. The pressures wave's peaks and lobes are going to be flatter. You might s well put shorties on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB View Post
    I'm in the same boat about 4-5 years ago I did't know the first thing about cars other than I like them and I wanted a V8. Now years later I have built a 88 monte SS that I put a new 305 in then added heads+cam built tranny(had the tranny profesonally built) and some suspension. Before I sold it I built my first engine just a mild 350 nothing crazy. The Z28 has pretty much full bolt ons and a full suspension setup all done with my own two hands. I would recomend that everyone on does there own bolt on's it gives you pride in your car and gives you better knowledge on how everything works.
    Very well said

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    Advantage from disadvantage

    Mr. Luos,

    I know you don't like Superschargers, but you would gain greatly from one. You are losing almost 15% HP at your elevation compared to sea level. Working from 2.9 - 3.0% air density loss per 1000ft and 14.5 psi atmosphere. You could bolt on a 4 or 4.5 psi charger and not incurr the problems sea level and near sea level guys get. A mild charge like that would mean you could get by without resonators and be back to tuning near sea level calculations.

    This would then wake up intake mods, exhaust, and that cam. You could put a $3000 charger on and not detune everything. You would be in the neighborhood of a 2psi boost equivalent to sea level. Even at a 10.3:1 copression ratio you should not have to worry about detonation! (I guess you'd have to worry about going on a road trip.)

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    Turbo is where it is at here.

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