Ladies and Gents, I think we are all screwd!

**O'Learys_SS** · 03-06-2009, 11:41 AM

As many of you already know, GM is in a huge hole dropping Saturn Saab and possibly Pontiac, closing 3 plants and putting 50,000 people out of work. I was hoping and wishing for the day that the camaro could come back and take over the streets again. I am very disapointed and sad at the same time, I was raised with all Chevys in my family and now to think that they are going bankrupt, and Ford +Chrystler are going to be the only US cars around. How do all of you feel about this

**67CamaroRSSS** · 03-06-2009, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by O'Learys_SS

As many of you already know, GM is in a huge hole dropping Saturn Saab and possibly Pontiac, closing 3 plants and putting 50,000 people out of work. I was hoping and wishing for the day that the camaro could come back and take over the streets again. I am very disapointed and sad at the same time, I was raised with all Chevys in my family and now to think that they are going bankrupt, and Ford +Chrystler are going to be the only US cars around. How do all of you feel about this

They go belly up then I'll just keep rebuilding the cars I already own. I will never buy a new Furd. Classic Furd maybe (I like and have owned 2 old Mustangs - 66 289 notchback and a 68 GT with a "S" code 390, top loader 4 speed and 4.11 geared 9" rearend)....

**Y2KArcticSS** · 03-06-2009, 11:49 AM

+1. I'll just keep on slapping bigger LS engines into my 4th gen.

**Firebirdjones** · 03-06-2009, 01:13 PM

Ya, just as I've already been doing,,,it's much cheaper and more fun to keep the old stuff running. As long as the aftermarket is out there for support there is no need to buy a new car. I'm still driving crap around from the 60's

**Firebirdjones** · 03-06-2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by O'Learys_SS

As many of you already know, GM is in a huge hole dropping Saturn Saab and possibly Pontiac, closing 3 plants and putting 50,000 people out of work. I was hoping and wishing for the day that the camaro could come back and take over the streets again. I am very disapointed and sad at the same time, I was raised with all Chevys in my family and now to think that they are going bankrupt, and Ford +Chrystler are going to be the only US cars around. How do all of you feel about this

I feel GM cut their own throat 7 years ago,,,and this economy has just been digging the hole deeper for them. I don't want to see them go under and it's even hard for me to comprehend. I think they are all suffering though,,as they all (chrysler and ford) have reported sales down 40% or more accross the board,,,even Toyota.

**KahanaReef** · 03-06-2009, 02:35 PM

If they do end up having to file, that doesn't necessarily mean the end. They could end up with a whole new game plan and come back on top just like some of the airlines have.

Never say never.

**Durango** · 03-06-2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by KahanaReef

If they do end up having to file, that doesn't necessarily mean the end. They could end up with a whole new game plan and come back on top just like some of the airlines have.

Never say never.

I agree there biggest cost is pensions so they will go bankrupt stop paying pensions and pay people $15 an hour to bring there over head down and back in business with huge profits will happen you watch. People will take the jobs anyway because they will have to. I hate to see this stuff happen to the people that will lose their pension as well at all the pay cuts but they talked about it before.

**Mr. Hyde** · 03-06-2009, 04:12 PM

I took the Vette into the dealership two days ago for a wheel replacement, and I know the General manager there fairly well.
I asked him for the real scoop, and he said it's actually not as bad as the Media makes it out to be.
He was really excited that the Camaro production was to begin in (at the time) 10 days.
He also told me that they have already sold their entire allocation of them at quite a bit over MSRP!
Let's take into consideration that:
1.) He's a glorified Salesman
2.) He's more than likely full of shit (see #1)
3.) It's his responsibility to make it look as if everything is okay in the world of GM
4.) Never trust a Salesman
5.) I'm a Salesman, so I know!!!!!!

**67CamaroRSSS** · 03-06-2009, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde

I took the Vette into the dealership two days ago for a wheel replacement, and I know the General manager there fairly well.
I asked him for the real scoop, and he said it's actually not as bad as the Media makes it out to be.
He was really excited that the Camaro production was to begin in (at the time) 10 days.
He also told me that they have already sold their entire allocation of them at quite a bit over MSRP!
Let's take into consideration that:
1.) He's a glorified Salesman
2.) He's more than likely full of shit (see #1)
3.) It's his responsibility to make it look as if everything is okay in the world of GM
4.) Never trust a Salesman
5.) I'm a Salesman, so I know!!!!!!

What dealership is this that's charging over MSRP and how much over? 5th gen.org has a dedicated thread for such scofflaws. Nobody should have to spend more than MSRP for their new Camaro (less if you're a wheeler dealer).

**Lethal Z** · 03-06-2009, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Durango

I agree there biggest cost is pensions so they will go bankrupt stop paying pensions and pay people $15 an hour to bring there over head down and back in business with huge profits will happen you watch. People will take the jobs anyway because they will have to. I hate to see this stuff happen to the people that will lose their pension as well at all the pay cuts but they talked about it before.

You know not to take away from the thread buy you hit a nerve here. Everyone's answer is screw the workers. Take there pensions away, screw the retirees and pay everyone 15 bucks an hour and everything will be fine. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. Ok so lets say we go ahead and do that, do you actually believe that the price of the cars are gonna come down? No. Will the company make more money? Of course they will, you'll be able to tell by the even bigger bonuses they'll pay themselves. And when that well starts running dry it'll be back to the table to see how much more they can screw the worker.

**Anthracis** · 03-06-2009, 05:50 PM

I'm taking a wait and see approach. I think they will be okay in the long run.

**Fotis** · 03-06-2009, 06:45 PM

we should burn FOrd dealers down to even the odds WHO'S WITH ME?!?!?!?

^^^ that looks cool^^^

**SouthernBornThriller** · 03-06-2009, 08:41 PM

I bought my T/A off the used lot of a Ford dealer. Does that make me a bad person?

Anyway, I don't think GM will necessarily poof. Not permanently at least. Hell, didn't Chrysler go bankrupt once before (80s I think), and just do a complete restructure that pulled them back out of the hole?

The Camaro is take it or leave it anyway...I don't plan on buying one...don't like fat chicks. I'd be sadder to see the vette poof. With the Z06 and ZR1 - we finally have cars that the foreign exotic market respects (and slightly fears). That's been nice.

**Mr. Hyde** · 03-07-2009, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS

What dealership is this that's charging over MSRP and how much over? 5th gen.org has a dedicated thread for such scofflaws. Nobody should have to spend more than MSRP for their new Camaro (less if you're a wheeler dealer).

Rule #2 again!
Probably just talking' shit!
Tryin' to make himself look good.
Ultimately it is always referred back to rule #4

**fergyflyer** · 03-07-2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Lethal Z

You know not to take away from the thread buy you hit a nerve here. Everyone's answer is screw the workers. Take there pensions away, screw the retirees and pay everyone 15 bucks an hour and everything will be fine. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. Ok so lets say we go ahead and do that, do you actually believe that the price of the cars are gonna come down? No. Will the company make more money? Of course they will, you'll be able to tell by the even bigger bonuses they'll pay themselves. And when that well starts running dry it'll be back to the table to see how much more they can screw the worker.

First off, if the company doesn't make more money then it's the end. Right now they are losing money. Second, the worker, read UAW thugs, have been screwing the company for 40 years. Wonder why no one ever talks about the millionaires that run these unions and how they have made their millions off the backs of the worker.

If GM sells 4 million cars and pays their top 20 managers a total of 100 million in bonuses that raises the price of a car $25. The legacy costs of pensions and healthcare for retired workers raises the cost of a car over $3000 per car.

The current workers make more than the competition at Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda and other non-union plants by about $22 per hour. That's total compensation including benefits. That adds an additional $800 per car.

What needs to happen is the management of GM needs to agree to cut their pay, bonuses and benefits to a parity level with Toyota executives. The workers need to do the same. The retireees need to agree to a cut in benefits.

If they don't then you are going to see everyone with nothing.

If I was a 52 year old retiree from GM I'd be concerned right now. If I was a 67 year old retiree I be scared to death right now.

**cammed goat** · 03-07-2009, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde

I took the Vette into the dealership two days ago for a wheel replacement, and I know the General manager there fairly well.
I asked him for the real scoop, and he said it's actually not as bad as the Media makes it out to be.
He was really excited that the Camaro production was to begin in (at the time) 10 days.
He also told me that they have already sold their entire allocation of them at quite a bit over MSRP!
Let's take into consideration that:
1.) He's a glorified Salesman
2.) He's more than likely full of shit (see #1)
3.) It's his responsibility to make it look as if everything is okay in the world of GM
4.) Never trust a Salesman
5.) I'm a Salesman, so I know!!!!!!

IF GM goes belly up then I'm just gonna rebuild the LS1 or find an LS9 crater for the Goat.

**NickNuggetZ28** · 03-07-2009, 02:54 PM

I think if anything that Chrysler will go out first, if it even happens. but what do i know lol

**Lethal Z** · 03-07-2009, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by fergyflyer

First off, if the company doesn't make more money then it's the end. Right now they are losing money. Second, the worker, read UAW thugs, have been screwing the company for 40 years. Wonder why no one ever talks about the millionaires that run these unions and how they have made their millions off the backs of the worker.

If GM sells 4 million cars and pays their top 20 managers a total of 100 million in bonuses that raises the price of a car $25. The legacy costs of pensions and healthcare for retired workers raises the cost of a car over $3000 per car.

The current workers make more than the competition at Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda and other non-union plants by about $22 per hour. That's total compensation including benefits. That adds an additional $800 per car.

What needs to happen is the management of GM needs to agree to cut their pay, bonuses and benefits to a parity level with Toyota executives. The workers need to do the same. The retireees need to agree to a cut in benefits.

If they don't then you are going to see everyone with nothing.

If I was a 52 year old retiree from GM I'd be concerned right now. If I was a 67 year old retiree I be scared to death right now.

UAW thugs? How do you catagorize all union workers as thugs? Because there union? Thats a stupid and very unfair analogy. There are bad elements everywhere you shouldn't judge the action of a few and catagorize the whole group as bad. And your math is shady at best.

Bottom line if your gonna cut benefits and wages of your workers then you need to start at the top. I agree with you there. No bonuses, cut the executives pay down to equal the competition first. You do that and no one can complain when you start hacking away at the workers pay and benefits.

And with regards to retirees, its not fair to work for 30 years for a company with the promise that your going to be taken care of when you retiree then have someone come along and say hey everything we promised you well, where not going to follow through. Your on your own. That ain't no company I would stay with. You screw your workers long enough, sooner or later it comes back to bite you.

**fergyflyer** · 03-07-2009, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lethal Z

UAW thugs? How do you catagorize all union workers as thugs? Because there union? Thats a stupid and very unfair analogy. There are bad elements everywhere you shouldn't judge the action of a few and catagorize the whole group as bad. And your math is shady at best.

Bottom line if your gonna cut benefits and wages of your workers then you need to start at the top. I agree with you there. No bonuses, cut the executives pay down to equal the competition first. You do that and no one can complain when you start hacking away at the workers pay and benefits.

And with regards to retirees, its not fair to work for 30 years for a company with the promise that your going to be taken care of when you retiree then have someone come along and say hey everything we promised you well, where not going to follow through. Your on your own. That ain't no company I would stay with. You screw your workers long enough, sooner or later it comes back to bite you.

UAW thugs, that's what the leadership of the union is, a byunch of millionaires that got rich off the backs of the rank and file. Now they have bankrupt the company.

Lets face it, the management payroll isn't what's making and breaking the company. It's the benefits and retirement programs. You can say it isn't fair to change them, but if you don't change them there won't be any at all.

The math isn't shady. Look it up.

The legacy cost per car in 2007 was just over $3000 per car. Now that they are selling less cars the lagacy cost is higher than that but I don't have the exact numbers.

How has the auto industry ever screwed it's workers??? High pay for people without college degrees. The best benefits in the world. If the company needs to lay you off they pay you for a full year. You work 30 years and retire. God I'd love to be able to retire at 48. As a matter of fact I can't think of any job except an auto worker or career military where you can do that.

When you figure benefits the UAW worker makes $22 per hour more than the guy working at a Toyota plant and $28 more an hour than the average Hyundai worker.

40 labor hours to make a car including pre assembly and after assembly and you have $800 per car in overpay because the union is interested in big union halls and union bosses being millionaires.

Meanwhile the guys that produce something are being hung out to dry because the union won't compromise.

100 million in bonuses is $25 per car. Lutz's compensation is about $3 per car including his bonuses.

Sorry but eliminating the top 100 incomes from GM does so much less than lowering workers compensation to parity with non-union plants that it isn't funny. An $800 cheaper Cobalt means something, versus a $75 cheaper Cobalt. Again all that needs to be done is lower workers compensation and benefits to parity with non-union plants. That's a bunch more than $15 per hour.

**m1a2d3** · 03-07-2009, 04:07 PM

GM as we used to know it is already dead. the greed of the execs as well as the unions helped bring them down. poor build quality and embarrassing customer service didnt help either. that being said. ill be driving a toyota when they pry my dead lifeless hands from my HD2500 steering wheel and obama confiscates all the empty mags and shells from my bushmaster.