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Ladies and Gents, I think we are all screwd!

This is a discussion on Ladies and Gents, I think we are all screwd! within the Camaro / SS forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by Lethal Z UAW thugs? How do you catagorize all union workers as thugs? Because there union? Thats ...

  1. #21
    Member gjb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Z View Post
    UAW thugs? How do you catagorize all union workers as thugs? Because there union? Thats a stupid and very unfair analogy. There are bad elements everywhere you shouldn't judge the action of a few and catagorize the whole group as bad. And your math is shady at best.

    Bottom line if your gonna cut benefits and wages of your workers then you need to start at the top. I agree with you there. No bonuses, cut the executives pay down to equal the competition first. You do that and no one can complain when you start hacking away at the workers pay and benefits.

    And with regards to retirees, its not fair to work for 30 years for a company with the promise that your going to be taken care of when you retiree then have someone come along and say hey everything we promised you well, where not going to follow through. Your on your own. That ain't no company I would stay with. You screw your workers long enough, sooner or later it comes back to bite you.
    Yes, thugs.

    The UAW strikes when they don't get what they want. Over time, they've twisted arms too far and now when GM files BK, they won't get a damn thing.

    You talk about fairness? You could say the same thing of the union demands which has forced GM into this position.

    GM will be profitable again once it files for BK, purges itself of these unsustainable obligations and gets back to making cars.

    G

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    ok well you know what? who the hell needs like 4739242309 million dollar salary and a 05948947329843092 million dollar bonus on top of it for being some hotshot CEO or whatever bullshit.


    seriously, who the fuck needs millions of dollars a year to live? no one, unless you care only about yourself

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    another manufacturer will buy them before they go under. chevy will be around forever, not sure about pontiac, gmc, saturn, etc. its too big a market in the US, other companies would jump on that

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    Millennium Falcon mpfranks's Avatar
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    according to the new bail out plan, if your company wants money then the execs need to take pay cuts and no bonuses anyhow. so that really shouldnt be an issue right now. in the past yes.
    Last edited by mpfranks; 03-09-2009 at 10:00 AM.

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    If GM goes bankrupt or dare I say WHEN, Ford and Chrysler will follow. Most use the same suppliers and one of them failing will start the snowball effect...

  6. #26
    Member Lethal Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjb View Post
    Yes, thugs.

    The UAW strikes when they don't get what they want. Over time, they've twisted arms too far and now when GM files BK, they won't get a damn thing.

    You talk about fairness? You could say the same thing of the union demands which has forced GM into this position.

    GM will be profitable again once it files for BK, purges itself of these unsustainable obligations and gets back to making cars.

    G
    Well im a union electrician and I don't agree with all the things that the UAW is trying to get. I don't get 90 percent of my pay if I get laid off and I don't think anyone else should either. Pensions aren't cheap I agree with that as well, with that being said I don't agree that the retirees who have worked all there lives should have to decide between eating and getting medical treatment. Many of these guys have wear and tear to there bodys as a result of performing there task on these assembly lines. Why would you force them to fend for themseves for medical treatment?

    There seems to be this idea that unions are outdated and no longer needed. Guys like you seem to think that if the unions went away and car companys could pay there employees's $15 to $20 bucks an hour then everything would be ok. Well you may actually see that, I'm noticing that unions as a whole are getting smaller and smaller. Mainly because people like you are convicing yourselves and others that unions aren't needed. Well what happens when the unions are gone and the company comes back and says that $15 to $20 bucks an hour is still too much? Then what? You may sleep at night knowing that the company would never do anything to hurt you but I don't. I've seen companys find ways of getting rid of people who are making more money only to replace them with new people so they can pay them less. What about companys like walmart who make there employees work off the clock in order to keep there jobs. I am a firm beleiver that there will soon be no middle class. You will have rich and poor. The rich will continue to get richer by cutting more corners and paying there employees as little as possible. The rest of us will be fighting for nickle and dime jobs to get by and cut each others throats to get them.

    Unions are in place to protect the rights of workers don't be so fast to kick them out the door. These companys have there leverage, why are you so quick to get rid of yours?
    Last edited by Lethal Z; 03-10-2009 at 09:14 PM.

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    Millennium Falcon mpfranks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Z View Post
    There seems to be this idea that unions are outdated and no longer needed.
    hey i agree that unions where a huge part of our capitalist frontier back in the early 20th century. but its inevitable that the US will eventually switch to a complete service economy, relying soling on service based produce and none on manufacturing. we have seen this coming since the late 70's. its hard to believe that this has already come to pass, but last year was the first year that we brought in more imports than exports. its a harsh time, but it is secular, we need this period to expand out economy into a service based economy which is the next phase in American progress. dont get me wrong, i feel bad for all the lost jobs and harshness in the economy, however, with out it we cannot as a society and country progress any further. once we get past this turmoil the country will be more plentiful than ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Z View Post
    Well im a union electrician and I don't agree with all the things that the UAW is trying to get. I don't get 90 percent of my pay if I get laid off and I don't think anyone else should either. Pensions aren't cheap I agree with that as well, with that being said I don't agree that the retirees who have worked all there lives should have to decide between eating and getting medical treatment. Many of these guys have wear and tear to there bodys as a result of performing there task on these assembly lines. Why would you force them to fend for themseves for medical treatment?

    There seems to be this idea that unions are outdated and no longer needed. Guys like you seem to think that if the unions went away and car companys could pay there employees's $15 to $20 bucks an hour then everything would be ok. Well you may actually see that, I'm noticing that unions as a whole are getting smaller and smaller. Mainly because people like you are convicing yourselves and others that unions aren't needed. Well what happens when the unions are gone and the company comes back and says that $15 to $20 bucks an hour is still too much? Then what? You may sleep at night knowing that the company would never do anything to hurt you but I don't. I've seen companys find ways of getting rid of people who are making more money only to replace them with new people so they can pay them less. What about companys like walmart who make there employees work off the clock in order to keep there jobs. I am a firm beleiver that there will soon be no middle class. You will have rich and poor. The rich will continue to get richer by cutting more corners and paying there employees as little as possible. The rest of us will be fighting for nickle and dime jobs to get by and cut each others throats to get them.

    Unions are in place to protect the rights of workers don't be so fast to kick them out the door. These companys have there leverage, why are you so quick to get rid of yours?
    I agree, my wife was with a company for more than 15 years and was one of the longest employed there, yet she was one of the first to get layed off due to high salaries. Sad but true, it makes people bitter to the point where they can't trust the people they are working for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfranks View Post
    hey i agree that unions where a huge part of our capitalist frontier back in the early 20th century. but its inevitable that the US will eventually switch to a complete service economy, relying soling on service based produce and none on manufacturing. we have seen this coming since the late 70's. its hard to believe that this has already come to pass, but last year was the first year that we brought in more imports than exports. its a harsh time, but it is secular, we need this period to expand out economy into a service based economy which is the next phase in American progress. dont get me wrong, i feel bad for all the lost jobs and harshness in the economy, however, with out it we cannot as a society and country progress any further. once we get past this turmoil the country will be more plentiful than ever.
    Wow I really hope that is true but I'm not so sure people out there right now share your optimism.
    I agree the importing this year was out of control. I wish this country would get back to basics and start making their own products again instead of importing all this foreign crap. We need to kick that out of here and be more self sufficient.

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    Millennium Falcon mpfranks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Wow I really hope that is true but I'm not so sure people out there right now share your optimism.
    I agree the importing this year was out of control. I wish this country would get back to basics and start making their own products again instead of importing all this foreign crap. We need to kick that out of here and be more self sufficient.
    we wont though. thats the thing, manufacturing in the US will pretty much nonexistent soon.

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    thanks for al the input guys I <333 GM and even though the new stuff isnt as good as the old I sure hope they stick around to see what the future will bring, and check this. My buddys grandma and grandpa worked for GM, retired, the grandfather died, my buddy and his grandma got a check every month as like a (sorry for your loss) deal. His grandma just passed away recently, R.I.P. but they had the nerve to say we actually need the money back that we have been giving you, unreal and i think at one point all manufacturing of all cars will stop, everyone has a car and whoever doesnt cant afford it or doesnt need one so we will see what happens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y2KArcticSS View Post
    +1. I'll just keep on slapping bigger LS engines into my 4th gen.
    Thats what Im sayin. I hate to see this happen to GM, but lets face it guys they really havent made any great cars before 04 besides the corvette and there SUV's and Pickups. Now that they finally have a good daily driver line up like the new malibu and Impala platforms people are weary to buy them because of past sub par quality. Bottom line they Screwed them selves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Z View Post
    Well im a union electrician and I don't agree with all the things that the UAW is trying to get. I don't get 90 percent of my pay if I get laid off and I don't think anyone else should either. Pensions aren't cheap I agree with that as well, with that being said I don't agree that the retirees who have worked all there lives should have to decide between eating and getting medical treatment. Many of these guys have wear and tear to there bodys as a result of performing there task on these assembly lines. Why would you force them to fend for themseves for medical treatment?

    There seems to be this idea that unions are outdated and no longer needed. Guys like you seem to think that if the unions went away and car companys could pay there employees's $15 to $20 bucks an hour then everything would be ok. Well you may actually see that, I'm noticing that unions as a whole are getting smaller and smaller. Mainly because people like you are convicing yourselves and others that unions aren't needed. Well what happens when the unions are gone and the company comes back and says that $15 to $20 bucks an hour is still too much? Then what? You may sleep at night knowing that the company would never do anything to hurt you but I don't. I've seen companys find ways of getting rid of people who are making more money only to replace them with new people so they can pay them less. What about companys like walmart who make there employees work off the clock in order to keep there jobs. I am a firm beleiver that there will soon be no middle class. You will have rich and poor. The rich will continue to get richer by cutting more corners and paying there employees as little as possible. The rest of us will be fighting for nickle and dime jobs to get by and cut each others throats to get them.

    Unions are in place to protect the rights of workers don't be so fast to kick them out the door. These companys have there leverage, why are you so quick to get rid of yours?


    There was a time for unions. We now have labor laws in place that protect the worker. The only thing that unions do now is protect the worst workers.

    Plain and simple, companies that lay off the highest paid people are short sighted or the employee isn't worth what the employer was paying. For example, I just laid off an employee that had been with my company for 14 years. One of the motivators involved in laying him off was his pay. The big reason was he was not as productive as lower paid people doing his job. There were 8 other people making more money than him, some have been with us longer. They have earned their pay increases through more efficient, accurate and safer production.

    If I can put on 200 wheels per day and the guy next to me puts on 200 wheels per day why does he deserve more money than me??? The answer is he doesn't. Now if he adds other value from his experience, like being a mentor to junior employees or maybe he installs 200 wheels and cleans up and maintains the equipment we both use, he is more valuable and earns his pay.

    I don't believe that Walmart forces people to work off the clock. If an employee wants to volunteer to learn a new job or skill that's one thing but there would be huge lawsuits and penalties for breaking the law that it would be counterproductive if they forced employees to work off the clock.

    I have told employees that have screwed something up a couple of times that if they do it again then they will need to punch out, fix their mistake and then punch back in or they will be let go. Everyone makes a mistake. When you keep making the same one you need to learn or move on.

    Also if screwing a car together is worth $15 an hour then that's what it should pay. There's a problem with low pay, you usually get what you pay for. Better workers will move to higher pay.

    My company is one of the highest paid in our catagory. Most of my employees have been with them for 5 or more years. We haven't had a lost time accident since January of 2001. My guys don't make mistakes so my customers continue to buy from me while others in my business catagory are going out of business. I'm not the cheapest, but my value is the best. I pay for the quality.

    Sorry but these GM/UAW workers were overpaid, especially as benefits go, for many years because they held a gun to the company's head. Well guess what, the rabbits got the gun now so what are they going to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin93 View Post
    Thats what Im sayin. I hate to see this happen to GM, but lets face it guys they really havent made any great cars before 04 besides the corvette and there SUV's and Pickups. Now that they finally have a good daily driver line up like the new malibu and Impala platforms people are weary to buy them because of past sub par quality. Bottom line they Screwed them selves.
    Define great.

    The Chevy Cavalier was extremely dependable. It was inexpensive and represented a good value.

    I would call the 4th gen F-body a great car. Superior performance at a lower price.

    Ok I'm pulling at straws here. There really wasn't anything much better than average. I tried though.

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    Did'nt read all the post but GM will not go away. They will probably file for bankruptcy, get rid of or force union consessions. Then restructure and come back hopefully smarter.
    It's not only the unions killing the "big three" it's also all of the retirees and thier life time benefits. Unions gotta go too. Unions drive alot of businesses out of the country. You can't pay unskilled workers $30-$40+ an hour and stay afloat forever. Not to mention unions use due money for political reasons too. Give it to people you may not even like. Mostly liberals. This may make union guys mad but thats the truth. Unions are "ONE" of the reasons businesses move over seas. Also why some with hire illegals to work. In 93' the steel mills went on strike near the town I live. During this time I was dateing a girl whos' father was a crane opperator for the steel mill. A union man who had 25+yrs in the mill. He made $60,000 a year, paying dues that whole time. Then when they went on strike all the union would pay him from the strike fund was lousy $90.00 per week. He could'nt collect unemployment because he was still considered to be "employed" through the union. No up side to me! Just my oppinion though. I'm not trying to start a war or offend folks. I just think for all the money people pay over the years they should get better returns durring a hardship....
    Last edited by Smittro; 03-11-2009 at 11:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfranks View Post
    we wont though. thats the thing, manufacturing in the US will pretty much nonexistent soon.
    Well I hope not, that would mean no manufacturing jobs at all. Sure is sad to think about it though.
    I'm just glad I don't plan on buying any new cars, probably ever again. I'm still driving stuff from the 60's and 70's more than I care to drive the 4th gen Cheaper to maintain and keep runnin' and they'll serve me fine till I die

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    I'm also a Union electrician that worked for 40 years in every kind of weather. I worked every day because I had a family to support. Unions in the area I worked in always gave back to the community. Where ever there was a need there would be union people volunteering their time and union contractors donating the materials. One hand helps the other. Unions are the reason that their is a middle class. Union people are not all the same so don't lump us all together. I worded hard for the money I made and I am enjoying my retirement. By the way after I retired I spend 5 years wiring the homes for Habitat for Humanity. No pay, just the joy of seeing someone get a home that never thought they could have one.

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    Member Lethal Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    There was a time for unions. We now have labor laws in place that protect the worker. The only thing that unions do now is protect the worst workers.
    If you believe that labor laws will protect your rights on the job your delusional. Labor laws are bent and even broken everyday. Been there done that. All the compay has to do is make you believe that you could loose your job. Maybe you'll be laid off, maybe you'll be skipped over for a promotion either way its almost impossible to prove. Some get caught many do not. Don't tell me about labor laws, If labor laws really worked how come we have illegal immigrants working here right now for next to nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    Plain and simple, companies that lay off the highest paid people are short sighted or the employee isn't worth what the employer was paying. For example, I just laid off an employee that had been with my company for 14 years. One of the motivators involved in laying him off was his pay. The big reason was he was not as productive as lower paid people doing his job. There were 8 other people making more money than him, some have been with us longer. They have earned their pay increases through more efficient, accurate and safer production. .
    Exactly why your employees should have brought in a union. You would'nt have been able to just fire a 14 year employee because you walked in one day and decided he wasn't doing enough. That is stupid, unfair and guess what that happens everyday too. What you should have done was talked to him first, give him the opportunity to pull it together. Were human, we all have our off days. If he still can't get it together then get rid of him. He's been there 14 years he's been doing something right I think he deserved at least that. If you don't than your short sighted.
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    If I can put on 200 wheels per day and the guy next to me puts on 200 wheels per day why does he deserve more money than me??? The answer is he doesn't. Now if he adds other value from his experience, like being a mentor to junior employees or maybe he installs 200 wheels and cleans up and maintains the equipment we both use, he is more valuable and earns his pay.
    I'll agree with that to a point. Someone who just started shouldn't be making what someone else is who has been there 10 years. I hope you agree with that because if not your turn around is gonna be ridiculous. Someone who has been there longer knows the ropes, can probably do more than one job and time won't be lost training him like with the new guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    I don't believe that Walmart forces people to work off the clock. If an employee wants to volunteer to learn a new job or skill that's one thing but there would be huge lawsuits and penalties for breaking the law that it would be counterproductive if they forced employees to work off the clock. .
    Than you should turn on the TV sometime. They get in trouble for it all the time. Hell they have gotten in trouble for it here in my own town at least twice. I have personally witnessed it. We did some electrical work at night at one of there stores, I saw an employee who was asked to bring in baskets from the parking lot as they came through the door. And no they were not comming back from lunch because I heard them bitch about it later. According to him that was nothing new.
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post

    Also if screwing a car together is worth $15 an hour then that's what it should pay. There's a problem with low pay, you usually get what you pay for. Better workers will move to higher pay.
    Well now your contradicting yourself. For one who decideds that 15 bucks an hour is fair? You the employer, me the worker or the mexican who is willing to do it for 5 bucks an hour? "Better workers will move to higher pay." According to you no one deserves higher pay if the same job is being performed. What is your definition of a better worker? Is it the guy who is willing to do multible jobs for the same pay?
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    I'm not the cheapest, but my value is the best. I pay for the quality.
    So is GM Ford and Chrysler UAW employees are the best paid because overall they do the best work and you should support them instead of trying to take there pay and benefits from them. Concessions need to be made fine Im ok with that but lets not get ridicuous.
    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    Sorry but these GM/UAW workers were overpaid, especially as benefits go, for many years because they held a gun to the company's head. Well guess what, the rabbits got the gun now so what are they going to do.
    Number one who are you to decide who is overpaid and who isn't. What kind of education have these folks had to get into those jobs? Ever heard of an apprecticeship? My apprecticeship was 5 years long before I was done. I work around 220,480, 4160 volts of electricity. Who are you to tell me what kind of money I should make or anyone else for that matter. And the rabbit needs to quit flying around in corporate jets, cut back on that 6 figure salary and cut way back on the multi-milliondollar bonuses.
    Last edited by Lethal Z; 03-12-2009 at 07:00 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Z View Post
    If you beleive that labor laws will protect your rights on the job your delusional. Labor laws are bent and even broken everyday. Been there done that. All the compay has to do is make you beleive that you could loose your job. Maybe you'll be laid off, maybe you'll be skipped over for a promotion your either way its almost impossible to prove. Some get caught many do not. Don't tell me about labor laws, ever heard of illegal immigration.

    Yes I believe labor laws will protect my rights and my employees rights. If I earn a raise or promotion, I'll get it. If I don't I'll move on to another company. Pretty simple. See I'm really good at what I do. I have companies trying to recruit me which is what happens when you are the best. If you're not the best then you need to strive to be the best or expect to not get good raises and promotions.

    Exactly why your employees should have brought in a union. You would not have been able to just fire a 14 year employee because you walking on day and decided he wasn't doing enough. That is stupid and very unfair, you should have talked to him first and given him the opportunity to pull it together. We are human, we all have our off days. If he still can't get it together then get rid of him. He's been there 14 years he's been doing something right.

    Boy are you way too quick to open your mouth. This employee had more than 10 years of poor yearly reviews. These were very specific, telling what he needed to improve. I didn't just walk in and decide to fire someone, due to the economic slowdown we needed to trim an employee. There wasn't enough work. My company, like most GOOD companies, doesn't just let someone go because someone walks in and decides to let someone go. A person gets at least three verbal warnings, two written warnings, a warning with time off before they are terminated. In this case it was a layoff due to econimic conditions.

    I'll agree with that to a point. Someone who just started shouldn't be making what someone else is who has been there 10 years. I hope you agree with that because if not your turn around is gonna be ridiculous. Someone who has been there longer knows the ropes, can probably do more than one job and time won't be lost training him like with the new guy.

    Way off again. What I said was that someone that has been doing a job for 10 years should be more productive than the new guy to actually be worth more money. Just because you go to a place for 5, 10 or 20 years doesn't mean you deserve more money, you need to earn it through increased performance. If a new guy and the 10 year guy are just as productive thenthey both should make the same money.


    Than you should turn on the TV sometime. They get in trouble for it all the time. Hell they have gotten in trouble for it here in my own town at least twice. I have personally witnessed it. We did some electrical work at night and I say employees who were asked to bring in baskets from the parking lot as they came through the door. And no they were not comming back from lunch because I heard them bitch about it later.

    I'm not understanding you here. I think if the employee was punched in and was coming in the door they should always be looking to get baskets to bring in. 25 years ago I worked for a company called Pharmor. They had lots of shopping carts and just about every employee would bring in baskets anytime they came in, punched in or not. It would be wrong for an employer to ask for employees to do that, but a good employee wouldn't have to be asked. They would realize that what benefits the company benefits the employees. If you don't get that concept you're hopeless.


    Number 1 who are you to decide who is overpaid and who isn't. What kind of education have these folks had to get into those jobs. Ever heard of an apprecticeship? My apprecticeship was 5 years long before I was done. I work around 220,480, 4160 volts. Who are you to tell me what kind of money I should make or anyone else for that matter. Your right about one thing though. You get exactly what you pay for, there are pleny of illegal immigrants that love guys like you.
    I'm not qualified to say if these UAW workers are overpaid or not. The market is and since the market bears less money for similar jobs at non-union auto manufacturers the logical conclusion is they are overpaid. Considerably too when you look at the benefits package and compensation. Reality is that if these UAW workers don't accept a reality based wage instead of the wage they are making now, they won't be making any money and they will force the company into bankruptcy. It would be a real shame for the current workers to destroy the retirements of thousands of former wokers. All they need to do is look at the steel workers to see what will and is going to happen to them.

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    Member fergyflyer's Avatar
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    2002 Z28

    By the way, I do support them. I drive an 02 Camaro and an 03 Cavalier. I have owned since 2001 a 2001 new Z28, a 2002 new Z28, a 2003 new Cavalier, a 2002 Z06 C5, a new 2005 GTO, a new 2006 C6 Vette, a used 1996 C4 LT4 Vette, a 2005 C6 Vette, and in the next few weeks will be buying a new Vette or maybe a GT500, kinda torn right now as to which way to go.

    For the companies I worked for I've purchased about a dozen Cavaliers and about 30 Focus Wagons, about 15 Silverado pickups, 2 F-150's and I'm buying a Ford Escape tommorrow. I've been asked why I don't consider cars from non American based manufacturers and my answer is that I prefer to buy a product that helps the economy of the country I live in. Foreign products help our economy buy providing work for dock workers and truck drivers etc.... but in the end the profit leaves this country, so I try to buy American.

    How many American vehicles have you bought in the last 7-8 years????

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