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Help me decide!!

This is a discussion on Help me decide!! within the Camaro / SS forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Originally Posted by Z28_SS I love your analogy Well i do have the lt headers from pacesetter along with the ...

  1. #21
    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_SS View Post
    I love your analogy

    Well i do have the lt headers from pacesetter along with the ory. i just have the stock muffler.

    I feel like such a newbie sometimes but what is lsa.
    yeah, he's a badass aint he?

    and dont feel like just because youre new youre stupid dude, how would you learn if you didnt ask? hell, im a newbie too.

    anyway, L.S.A. stands for Lobe Separation Angle which is just the angle between the highest lift points between the intake and exhaust valves. (how do you think i know that...telepathy? nah, i read it, then i looked at a cam and learned how it worked, kinda)

    lobe separation increases overlap with the valves which is a good thing. the lower the L.S.A. number, the more amount of valve overlap depending on the cam duration. overlap allows a new af mixture to enter the cylinders and push the old one out at the same time because both of the valves are open at the same time. now heres the kicker. the lower the L.S.A number results in a (technically) poorer idle. if we were to get technical with this, a cam with a choppy idle isnt doing its job very well. but since that cam "lope" is the sound everyone wants, we all forget that.

    heres how it is
    113-114 L.S.A somewhat stock idle quality

    112-110 very choppy

    supposedly the lower lobe separation number would give you alittle more power, but again, the lower that number, the choppier the idle and the more essential it becomes to get a solid tune. you need a tune REGARDLESS of the cam you choose, but the higher L.S.A cams (spec dependent) wont be running on the edge of dying untuned like the choppy low L.S.A cams.

    you should ditch the stock muffler, but it isnt hindering performance that much. that being said, there are WAY more beneficial and down right nasty sounding exhausts out there. hell, even a catback would open it up alittle, especially if you got a straight through muffler. my vote is for true duals but that will always be my take on things. good luck.

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    Member Z28_SS's Avatar
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    awsome, well you guys really helped me make up my mind. IM going to go with that kit from texas speed with the tourquer v.2 cam and the 112 lsa. Along with that ill also get the oil pump and timing chain.

    am i going to need to get like an instilation kit with like the seals and what not?

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    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    SGS, very well explained about the lobe separation. I think the slightly tighter LSA on the '01 and up engines allowed GM to do away with the EGR system, since it allows a little more exhaust to mix with the new AF coming into the cylinder. Also, the smaller the LSA number, the more peaky the pwerband, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    SGS, very well explained about the lobe separation. I think the slightly tighter LSA on the '01 and up engines allowed GM to do away with the EGR system, since it allows a little more exhaust to mix with the new AF coming into the cylinder. Also, the smaller the LSA number, the more peaky the pwerband, right?
    thanks alot man.
    now, last night actually, i was trying to visualize in my head why a smaller Lobe seperation angle (more valve overlap) has such a poor idle. the only thing i can think (and please dont take this as fact, merely a deductive reasoning explanation) is when the engine is turning low rpms and there is valve overlap it srtuggles more to push the mixture out and pull the mixture in because it all happens at once, and very slowly. thats the only way i can deduce about why the 110-112 L.S.A cams have such a choppy idle. does this make sense??? if the rpms are turning very quickly it makes it beneficial to have overlap to get the mix out quicker and draw another one in but at low revolutions i can see how it would be difficult for the valves to compensate.
    as for the peak power from this, i would say youre right. it will produce alittle more power than a cam with a higher lsa number but not much. and im not sure where that power comes into play but i would assume it beneficial at high engine speeds.

    hmm. im gonna check into this theory. thanks again for the kind words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_SS View Post
    awsome, well you guys really helped me make up my mind. IM going to go with that kit from texas speed with the tourquer v.2 cam and the 112 lsa. Along with that ill also get the oil pump and timing chain.

    am i going to need to get like an instilation kit with like the seals and what not?
    like i mentioned before, simply buy the cam package which comes with everything you need. springs, retainers,......i cant remember but thats the way to go, just make it easy and get it all at once.
    918 springs will do fine. i think they handle lift up to .600.
    good luck man!

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    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by secondgearscratch View Post
    thanks alot man.
    now, last night actually, i was trying to visualize in my head why a smaller Lobe seperation angle (more valve overlap) has such a poor idle. the only thing i can think (and please dont take this as fact, merely a deductive reasoning explanation) is when the engine is turning low rpms and there is valve overlap it srtuggles more to push the mixture out and pull the mixture in because it all happens at once, and very slowly. thats the only way i can deduce about why the 110-112 L.S.A cams have such a choppy idle. does this make sense??? if the rpms are turning very quickly it makes it beneficial to have overlap to get the mix out quicker and draw another one in but at low revolutions i can see how it would be difficult for the valves to compensate.
    as for the peak power from this, i would say youre right. it will produce alittle more power than a cam with a higher lsa number but not much. and im not sure where that power comes into play but i would assume it beneficial at high engine speeds.

    hmm. im gonna check into this theory. thanks again for the kind words.
    Yes, with the overlap the engine has a narrower powerband. Anyone can prove the EGR function with an EGR equipped engine by pushing on the EGR diaphragm and notice how the engine runs rougher with the EGR flow. Very similar to a tighter overlap camshaft. That is why low number overlap camshafts work better for race engines, ones that only have to operate above 5,000 RPM or so. I put a big hydraulic camshaft in my '67 400 4 SPD Firebird, only to learn that it only ran well when I floored it. The peaky powerband was very evident. Anything beyone full throttle was a hesitating bitch. But, oh the sounds I made (near idle)_pulling into the gas station! Everybody looked to see the race car coming in to get gas. Wider overlap (bigger numbers) mean a more broad powerband, usually at the expense of peak HP, but also more average torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    Yes, with the overlap the engine has a narrower powerband. Anyone can prove the EGR function with an EGR equipped engine by pushing on the EGR diaphragm and notice how the engine runs rougher with the EGR flow. Very similar to a tighter overlap camshaft. That is why low number overlap camshafts work better for race engines, ones that only have to operate above 5,000 RPM or so. I put a big hydraulic camshaft in my '67 400 4 SPD Firebird, only to learn that it only ran well when I floored it. The peaky powerband was very evident. Anything beyone full throttle was a hesitating bitch. But, oh the sounds I made (near idle)_pulling into the gas station! Everybody looked to see the race car coming in to get gas. Wider overlap (bigger numbers) mean a more broad powerband, usually at the expense of peak HP, but also more average torque.
    ^good reasoning for sure.

    most of the type of power band has to do with the duration + lift though. i just dont want someone reading this who doesnt know and think that the L.S.A number will be the only thing that dictates power and get the highest numbered one when in actulity its relevance is only slight compared to the lift of the valves and the duration of their opening....s dont wanna confuse em. course im pretty much a newb myself but you get the picture.
    ill have to think of a question and post it later, this thread is a good one.
    oh great intentions, ive got the best of interventions...

    Missouri and Central IL members come in!!!!!
    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f26/missouri-muscle-central-il-come-48861/

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    Quote Originally Posted by secondgearscratch View Post
    yeah, he's a badass aint he?
    i aint some badass. i just do alot of reading on the clock at work ...shit SGS, i have tons of links to so much info, perhaps i need to create another sticky...

    z28_ss, ask all the questions that you need to. knowledge is all around this site and we can help you the best way we possilby can

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSwt00SS View Post
    i aint some badass. i just do alot of reading on the clock at work ...shit SGS, i have tons of links to so much info, perhaps i need to create another sticky...
    you know i meant it with the utmost respect. and hell yeah man thats what its all about. i prefer to learn by doing but reading about it is second best. if you want to take the time to put a cam guide together or something with informational links, i'll definetely read and use it, endorse it for a sticky, and chime in if im needed or wanted.

    i like how this thread is developing. i get sick of the non technical threads and the what if internet racing stories......

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    Member Z28_SS's Avatar
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    i found a nice little article helping explaining lift, overlap, and what not on the camshaft.

    "Not so long ago, the bigger is better philosophy reigned supreme regarding camshafts. The result was overcammed engines that sounded great and could crank serious top-end power, but were not very streetable and couldn't idle to save their lives.

    But thanks to modern cam technology, you can come pretty darn close to the Holy Grail of street bumpsticks-cams that make high rpm power, have good low-end torque and drivability, decent vacuum for power brakes, and that loping idle we all love. Camshaft theory is a complex subject that can take a book-length article to explain. We're going to concentrate on the basics you'll need to know to choose a good street cam.

    Lift and Duration
    Lift and duration are the primary factors that determine a cam's profile. Lift is the amount a cam lobe actually moves a valve off its seat, and is measured in fractions of an inch. Duration is the amount of time a cam keeps a valve off of its seat, measured in degrees of crank rotation.
    Lift and duration combined determine total open valve area-the space available for air and fuel to flow into and out of the combustion chamber. The more valve area open to flow, the more power an engine can theoretically make. The trick is to “size" a cam to optimize valvetrain events for your particular engine combination and vehicle.

    Cam Sizing
    Virtually every cam maker uses duration to rate camshafts. When someone talks about a “big" cam, they are referring to cams with longer duration. This keeps the valves open longer, increasing midrange and top-end power at the expense of low-end torque. A shorter duration cam does just the opposite. Because it doesn't keep the valves open as long, a smaller cam boosts low rpm torque and drivability. There are two ways to measure duration:
    Advertised Duration is the figure you usually see in the cam ads and hear about at those late-night bench races. The problem with advertised duration is cam makers use various methods of measuring it, making it difficult to compare cams from different makers.
    Duration at .050 measures duration at .050 inches of valve lift. Since all cam grinders use this measurement, it's a much more accurate way to make a comparison. Two cams may be very close in advertised duration, for example, but make peak power at different rpms. Summit Racing uses duration at .050 ratings to help you better compare the wide variety of cams it carries.
    Lobe Separation
    Lobe separation is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobe. Like duration, lobe separation helps determine the cam's rpm range. Generally, a cam with wider lobe separation (112-116 degrees) will make power over a wider rpm band. A cam with narrow lobe separation (under 112 degrees) is biased toward peak power and operates within a narrower rpm band.For the street, you want a cam with a fairly wide lobe separation for the best power production over the engine's entire rpm range. Go too narrow with lobe separation and you may end up with an engine with a peaky powerband biased to high rpm horsepower-not the hot ticket for a street car.

    Flat Tappet vs. Roller
    Now that you have an idea of what lift and duration are, let's muddy things up by comparing flat tappet and roller lifter cams. Flat tappet cams use a lifter with a slightly curved bottom that slides against the cam lobes. Virtually every V8 engine built before the late 1980s came with a flat tappet cam; they are reliable and relatively inexpensive. With literally hundreds of profiles to choose from, finding a good flat tappet cam for your street car is not difficult.
    Roller cams are hardened steel cams that use lifters with a roller, or wheel, that rolls over the cam lobes. This design dramatically decreases valvetrain friction and wear, and allows designers to create profiles that offer more lift without increasing duration. That means a roller can make more midrange and top end power than a flat tappet cam of the same duration without sacrificing bottom end power. If you need proof that roller cams are better, ask the OEMs what they put in their engines nowadays.

    Hydraulic or Solid?
    Flat tappet and roller cams for overhead valve engines are available with hydraulic and mechanical lifters. Hydraulic lifters are self-adjusting; they use an oil-damped, spring-loaded plunger to help maintain valve lash (the distance between the valve stem and the rocker arm tip). Hydraulic lifter cams are quiet, require virtually no maintenance, and transmit less shock to the valvetrain. Their main drawback is a tendency to “pump-up" (overfill with oil) and cause the valves to float, or stay open too long, at high rpm. Valve float kills power, and can lead to engine damage if you keep your foot planted in the throttle.
    Mechanical, or solid, lifters are not self-adjusting. They rely on a properly set up, adjustable valvetrain to maintain proper valve lash. Because solid lifter cams are less susceptible to valve float at higher rpms, they are ideal for more radical street and racing profiles. The price of running solid lifters is periodic adjustment of valve lash and increased valvetrain noise. " ----http://www.summitracing.com

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    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Nicely explained.

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    If i keep my stock rockers will my heads be able to take a lift of .600

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_SS View Post
    If i keep my stock rockers will my heads be able to take a lift of .600
    yes i do believe but springs will need to be atleast comp 918s. i would go for the prc's though for peace of mind.

    have you decided on a cam and related parts yet?

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    IM going to go with that kit from texas speed with the tourquer v.2 cam and the 112 lsa. Along with that ill also get the oil pump and timing chain.
    I think the kit comes with the 918 springs and all the other neccesary items. Im going to give texas speed a call now and see what they say

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    just got off the phone with texas speed and this is what it looks like im going with.
    -TSP Camshaft, PRC Spring Kit & Pushrod Package
    -includes Tourquer v.2 camshaft
    -The Precision Race Components Double Springs Rated To .660" Lift
    -Precision Machined Titanium Retainers
    -Hardened Machined Spring Seats
    - New Viton Valve Seals
    -Texas Speed Hardened Chromoly Pushrods
    -LS6 ported oil pump
    -Rollmaster Double-Roller Adjustable Timing Set
    -Basic Camshaft Bolt & Gasket Kit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_SS View Post
    just got off the phone with texas speed and this is what it looks like im going with.
    -TSP Camshaft, PRC Spring Kit & Pushrod Package
    -includes Tourquer v.2 camshaft
    -The Precision Race Components Double Springs Rated To .660" Lift
    -Precision Machined Titanium Retainers
    -Hardened Machined Spring Seats
    - New Viton Valve Seals
    -Texas Speed Hardened Chromoly Pushrods
    -LS6 ported oil pump
    -Rollmaster Double-Roller Adjustable Timing Set
    -Basic Camshaft Bolt & Gasket Kit
    hey congrats man, thats looks exactly like what im ordering from them! i think you will be more than pleased with the amount of power you will have everywhere. its really a good thing. way to go with the pushrods also, cant ever be too safe, especially when the cam is in question. its sort of the brains of the operation.

    out of curiostiy, do you have a rough idea of what you'll do with the heads? if money is of concern, i suggest having them ported and flow tested. but for a grand you can get the ls6 ported heads. just wondering what route youre taking...

    congrats again!!!!

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    well my dad works at CAT. I dont know if you guys every herd of them, they are are hevy equipment company and he is pretty high up there and from what he has told me, they do all the machinging and stuff there so ill see if he can just port my current heads.
    Although the guy from texas speed said that the cam will work fine with the stock heads.

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    sorry to go off of topic, but i was just drving my car and this is the second time it has happened, from a stop when my car is in neutral. ill push the clutch in all the way and try to put it into first and itll spitt the shifter at me or grind the gear. A couple times it wouldnt even go in. do you have any clue what might cause this? if it helps i have a pro 50 shifter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_SS View Post
    sorry to go off of topic, but i was just drving my car and this is the second time it has happened, from a stop when my car is in neutral. ill push the clutch in all the way and try to put it into first and itll spitt the shifter at me or grind the gear. A couple times it wouldnt even go in. do you have any clue what might cause this? if it helps i have a pro 50 shifter.
    your syncs or forks..i believe its your forks more then the synchs

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    and how would i go about fixing that.

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