Very First Firebird Found

**CJREX** · 04-19-2014, 04:01 AM

This might be an interesting episode to watch.

And of course they were found in an old barn.

Firebird #1 and #2

**GTP231** · 04-19-2014, 08:55 AM

Was kind of surprised to see they were both convertibles

**KahanaReef** · 04-19-2014, 10:14 AM

I'll record it

**theorangeguy** · 04-21-2014, 05:52 AM

I was reading about this the other day...they pumped a boat load of money into them to restore the cars. Glad to see they got brought back to life.

**GULLETT17** · 04-24-2014, 11:25 AM

For those who watched the first episode, I can't believe how much sheet metal they replaced. To me, that would kill the value on cars of this significance.

***SMWS6TA*** · 04-24-2014, 11:53 AM

I've always wonder about that.....I know you need numbers matching engine & transmission as well as vin #. But how do they deal with the tags if you have to cut away the firewall or door jam where they are located?

**theorangeguy** · 04-24-2014, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

I've always wonder about that.....I know you need numbers matching engine & transmission as well as vin #. But how do they deal with the tags if you have to cut away the firewall or door jam where they are located?

I've always seen them re-rivet it to the car...the old ones were held in place by 2 rivets and they just put them back in the exact same location. with that said, if its a stamp somewhere I have no clue how they would deal with that situation...I would assume they cut that piece of the car out and weld it back into place?

**raynor139** · 04-24-2014, 01:08 PM

This is why survivor cars are worth so much. It's rare for cars that old to be untouched. The value to me is all in those Vin numbers.

Now if those cars were still in original condition I would bet they would be well over a million together.

**theorangeguy** · 04-24-2014, 01:13 PM

numbers matching doesnt really matter that much to me...is it cool, yes...am I the type of guy who is going to drop an extra $100-300k for a car that has matching numbers, no lol

***SMWS6TA*** · 04-24-2014, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by raynor139

This is why survivor cars are worth so much. It's rare for cars that old to be untouched. The value to me is all in those Vin numbers.

Now if those cars were still in original condition I would bet they would be well over a million together.

Between selling and restoring he's made over $660,000 for a $70,000 investment. I can't say he's done too bad.

**raynor139** · 04-24-2014, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

Originally Posted by raynor139

This is why survivor cars are worth so much. It's rare for cars that old to be untouched. The value to me is all in those Vin numbers.

Now if those cars were still in original condition I would bet they would be well over a million together.

Between selling and restoring he's made over $660,000 for a $70,000 investment. I can't say he's done too bad.

Yeah he's done just fine. I think he said he was expecting to have around 325k in them between the 2. So 335k in profit for 60 days worth of work seems like good deal to me.

**67CamaroRSSS** · 04-24-2014, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by theorangeguy

I've always seen them re-rivet it to the car...the old ones were held in place by 2 rivets and they just put them back in the exact same location. with that said, if its a stamp somewhere I have no clue how they would deal with that situation...I would assume they cut that piece of the car out and weld it back into place?

1st gen Camaros have 2 hidden VINs in addition to the Trim Tag (which is riveted to the firewall with special rivets and tool) and the actual VIN plate (riveted to the left side door frame on 67 and just below the windshield on the left side for 68 and 69, once again using a special rivet and setting tool different from that used for the TT). I can only assume that Firebirds are done the same.

**GULLETT17** · 04-25-2014, 04:56 AM

I re-riveted the VIN on my 80 formula because I had to repair the sheet metal in this location of the dash. But no one would really care how precisely this is done on a 2nd gen 301 car.

**Firebirdjones** · 04-25-2014, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

I've always wonder about that.....I know you need numbers matching engine & transmission as well as vin #. But how do they deal with the tags if you have to cut away the firewall or door jam where they are located?

Tags can be easily reinstalled. I've had cars to restore here where quarters need replaced and the owners want the date codes re-installed. All your sheet metal is stamped with date codes, sometimes plant manufacture and day/night shift. Quarter panels on GM cars have it stamped in the trunk gutter (where the weather stripping is). It's very easy to cut this peice out and weld it into the new quarter panels (which are not stamped) so as to appear it has original quarters. Fenders, doors, are the same way. Shops do it all the time. It does make a difference in the end selling price.

**Firebirdjones** · 04-25-2014, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by raynor139

This is why survivor cars are worth so much. It's rare for cars that old to be untouched. The value to me is all in those Vin numbers.

Now if those cars were still in original condition I would bet they would be well over a million together.

If you keep up on current trends you'll see how the survivor cars have caught on in the last 5-6 years. In most cases if well preserved they bring more money than a complete fresh concours restored example. I've always had a fixation towards unrestored cars and have collected 4 of them myself. Being in the restoration business I have aquired a certain appreciation for them. As they get older they are getting few and far between and harder to find now. With age comes things that need replaced unfortunately. The survivor status that was coined by the corvette society back in the 1980's had guidelines back then, such as the cars required to have at least 80 or 85% of their original paint left, among other things. Since that time the rules have laxed quite a bit and I've seen in some listings where the percentage has dropped back to as much as 50% now, and they actually catagorize the cars with different status levels as to how original they are. They keep getting older

There comes a point when an unrestored car is beyond saving and it's just time to completely restore it (as these 2 firebirds were).

**Firebirdjones** · 04-25-2014, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by theorangeguy

I was reading about this the other day...they pumped a boat load of money into them to restore the cars. Glad to see they got brought back to life.

Yep, it takes a dedicated person and a car worthy of the investment to restore one properly. Restoring these classic cars "correctly" is not a cheap proposition by any means and can easily reach 6 figures to completely go through a car. Especially when you get into certain desirable engine/drivetrain combinations where the date coded parts alone can fetch $$$$thousands of dollars. So if that stuff is missing (and it usually is) then be prepared to sink some serious cash in the car.
It's why you see certain correctly restored cars fetch 6 figures on the auction block, because in most cases you can't build the car for that kind of money. Buy it, keep it a few years, and get a return on your investment as long as you don't drive it down to #2 condition.

***SMWS6TA*** · 04-25-2014, 05:47 AM

So in theory FBJ I could go to YearOne and get a complete 77-79 Trans Am body and as long as I have a donor car that has the tags and stamp id's and transfer them to the new body I could claim it's a survivor?

**Firebirdjones** · 04-25-2014, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by SMWS6TA

So in theory FBJ I could go to YearOne and get a complete 77-79 Trans Am body and as long as I have a donor car that has the tags and stamp id's and transfer them to the new body I could claim it's a survivor?

Haha, I think the term "survivor" is thrown around so much that it's meaning has been misconstrude over the years. Once you start replacing metal, painting the car, or any other type of restoration work that is extensive, the car in my opinion is no longer a survivor, but my definition of the term is old school, and the car also has to be a presentable example that shows well, not something that looks like it was dragged from the river bottom

Most cars will have some sheetmetal replacement required during a restoration. What I explained with the grafting of date codes on sheetmetal just shows the level of detail and dedication that these owners go through to make a car as OEM as possible while still being a restored example. It's not to be fraudulent in any way. These details are just one example of what makes the difference in a correct restoration verses a shop that just pumps out cars with nice paint jobs. It can be as much as 25% difference in selling prices on the market.

**Firebirdjones** · 04-25-2014, 06:22 AM

For example, here is one survivor I have, an SCJ Mach 1. It's all unrestored. I've buffed the paint and cleaned things so it's a presentable car that really doesn't need a complete restoration. However it does have patina and shows it's age. The reflective tape stripes are old and cracking, and there is one small 10" area on the right quarter that was sprayed at one time in it's life to repair a dent, so it's really 95-98% original paint, and it's wearing thin. Only replacement items over the years are general maintanance which is to be expected like tires (which are now 30 years old and need replaced again) I replaced battery, hoses, water pump, fuel pump, to keep it driveable, all done with date coded correct parts. Unfortunately it's really not a car I can enjoy all that much. We get it out about twice a year for a special mustang get together in town, that's about it. That's the drawback of trying to preserve a real survivor.