Manual transmission experts, i have a question.

**Murder after Midnight** · 05-10-2015, 12:39 PM

Is shifting to neutral as you slow down before you stop ok? I have always just shifted from whatever gear i was in to neutral and just coasted to the stop light and braked. is this ok? Or does this cause any type of clutch wear?

**5.0THIS** · 05-10-2015, 01:18 PM

Anytime you depress the clutch you're using it, hence wearing it. Just pulling it out of gear though and coasting to a stop isn't doing anything to it that you need to worry about. Downshifting through the gears would put a lot more wear on it, and is pointless in normal street driving. Brakes are a lot cheaper and easier to do than a clutch.

**Murder after Midnight** · 05-10-2015, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

Anytime you depress the clutch you're using it, hence wearing it. Just pulling it out of gear though and coasting to a stop isn't doing anything to it that you need to worry about. Downshifting through the gears would put a lot more wear on it, and is pointless in normal street driving. Brakes are a lot cheaper and easier to do than a clutch.

Cool, sounds great! Thanks alot man! 5.0 for president!

**67CamaroRSSS** · 05-11-2015, 07:50 AM

I put it in neutral and coast to a stop also. The clutch is for shifting gears; the brakes are for stopping...

**blackcar** · 05-12-2015, 01:24 PM

Say you are in 5th gear and you put it in neutral and coast/brake to a stop at a light. Then, do you just put it in first when you are ready to go?

I've always kept in 5th while slowing down until the RPMS get lower 1,000-1,500. Then pressed clutch in and held it. As the car slowed down I've always down shifted through the gears (keeping the clutch pedal in the whole time), until I get to second. Then, put in neutral and let the pedal out.

I know ours don't have linkage but my brother had a 76 chevy stepside that if you skipped a gear the linkage would bind up.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-12-2015, 01:34 PM

I try to always keep it in a gear because you never know when you might need to speed up to get out of someone's way..

**Zinergy** · 05-12-2015, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by blackcar

Say you are in 5th gear and you put it in neutral and coast/brake to a stop at a light. Then, do you just put it in first when you are ready to go?

I've always kept in 5th while slowing down until the RPMS get lower 1,000-1,500. Then pressed clutch in and held it. As the car slowed down I've always down shifted through the gears (keeping the clutch pedal in the whole time), until I get to second. Then, put in neutral and let the pedal out.

I know ours don't have linkage but my brother had a 76 chevy stepside that if you skipped a gear the linkage would bind up.

That's just silly. I mean I have heard people go through all the gears every time for the synchro excuse but what you just described is silly.

**wileyCoyote** · 05-12-2015, 05:15 PM

...why would one put it into neutral when stopping??? ...if you don't like your brakes to last very long, I guess that would be great... the logical thing to do is (assuming you don't downshift into a lower gear) is to coast-down (while braking if necessary), in gear, to get some benefit of engine braking, ..then clutch-in when the revs get down to near idle...

**5.0THIS** · 05-12-2015, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by blackcar

Say you are in 5th gear and you put it in neutral and coast/brake to a stop at a light. Then, do you just put it in first when you are ready to go?

I've always kept in 5th while slowing down until the RPMS get lower 1,000-1,500. Then pressed clutch in and held it. As the car slowed down I've always down shifted through the gears (keeping the clutch pedal in the whole time), until I get to second. Then, put in neutral and let the pedal out.

I know ours don't have linkage but my brother had a 76 chevy stepside that if you skipped a gear the linkage would bind up.

Just push the clutch in, put it in neutral, and coast down at the soonest moment when you no longer need power. Coasting down in gear puts an increased load on the engine, and increased wear. And leaving it in gear in case you need to accelerate? Probably wont do much good since you're slowing down and out of the power band as you use the engine for breaking. If you tried to accelerate there wouldn't be anything there, and most people are going to reach for a lower gear almost immediately if the need arises anyway.

And if you're shifting through the gears with the clutch in, you're accomplishing nothing but wearing on the transmission internals with a modern trans. Just no reason to do it.

Originally Posted by wileyCoyote

...why would one put it into neutral when stopping??? ...if you don't like your brakes to last very long, I guess that would be great... the logical thing to do is (assuming you don't downshift into a lower gear) is to coast-down (while braking if necessary), in gear, to get some benefit of engine braking, ..then clutch-in when the revs get down to near idle...

Any time you increase the load on the engine, you're increasing wear on it. Brakes are a fusible link that is designed to be easily and cheaply replaced. And they're designed to slow the car down. The engine is not. And any time you're putting the engine under a load but completely closed throttle, it's going to be running lean condition because of the closed throttle. It creates heat. One thing people don't take into account is that an engine can be under a very heavy load with no throttle input at all. And it's a different kind of load than under throttle.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-13-2015, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

Any time you increase the load on the engine, you're increasing wear on it. Brakes are a fusible link that is designed to be easily and cheaply replaced. And they're designed to slow the car down. The engine is not. And any time you're putting the engine under a load but completely closed throttle, it's going to be running lean condition because of the closed throttle. It creates heat. One thing people don't take into account is that an engine can be under a very heavy load with no throttle input at all. And it's a different kind of load than under throttle.

Wiley what your thinking of is engine braking, something most auto motors are not design for. Only type of engine I can think of that is designed for that type of load is Semi-Truck diesels "Jake-brake"

is an engine braking mechanism installed on some diesel engines. When activated, it opens exhaust valves in the cylinders after the compression cycle, releasing the compressed air trapped in the cylinders, and slowing the vehicle.

Even knowing this I still try to keep it in a gear unless I know the area I'm coasting down is clear say for example an off ramp off the hwy and I'm the single vehicle.

**theorangeguy** · 05-13-2015, 07:06 AM

I usually pop mine out of gear and coast to a stop or use my brakes...I'm with 5.0 100%. Brakes are designed to stop you and they are designed to wear.

I'm not saying I dont let the engine brake some from time to time "it sounds great" but I usually just pop it out of gear and use the brakes.

**wileyCoyote** · 05-13-2015, 02:50 PM

...leaving it in-gear while slowing to a stop is a recommended procedure in the car's operating manual (for a manual trans)... if you shift out of gear and rely solely on braking, you're probably increasing your stopping distance (think "reserves")... and if you're coming down from a highway off-ramp, it would seem illogical to put it in neutral!

...cars w/ automatic trans don't automatically put themselves into neutral when the brakes are applied, they use normal "engine braking", and even go down through the gears as speed slows... I've never heard about this "normal" mode of operation as a cause of excessive wear on engines...

**bigrondownhiller** · 05-13-2015, 05:06 PM

I always put the car in neutral when stopping. As others have said brake pads are cheaper and easier than a clutch. Also no holding the clutch when waiting for a light or stopped in traffic.

**theorangeguy** · 05-13-2015, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by bigrondownhiller

I always put the car in neutral when stopping. As others have said brake pads are cheaper and easier than a clutch. Also no holding the clutch when waiting for a light or stopped in traffic.

yea, I'm with you...the idea of holding the clutch in for 30 seconds to a solid minute every single time I stop at a red light sounds like it would wear out a clutch WAY faster than the alternative. That amount of clutch wear would add up after a year or so. The master cylinder comes to mind...

**5.0THIS** · 05-13-2015, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by wileyCoyote

...leaving it in-gear while slowing to a stop is a recommended procedure in the car's operating manual (for a manual trans)... if you shift out of gear and rely solely on braking, you're probably increasing your stopping distance (think "reserves")... and if you're coming down from a highway off-ramp, it would seem illogical to put it in neutral!

...cars w/ automatic trans don't automatically put themselves into neutral when the brakes are applied, they use normal "engine braking", and even go down through the gears as speed slows... I've never heard about this "normal" mode of operation as a cause of excessive wear on engines...

You're wrong on all accounts. Your stopping distance is not increased one bit by taking a car out of gear, and it's really quite simple to see. Every car has a braking threshold, or a maximum amount of braking force that can be put down before you run out of traction. On almost any car, the brakes can apply more force than the car has traction. Using an engine simply shifts some of that load off of the brakes. When they test how fast a car can stop, particularly a manual trans car, the car is either in neutral, or the clutch is in. Every single time.

And I don't think you understand how automatic transmissions operate. The engine is doing little to nothing in terms of engine braking when you're coasting in drive. It does downshift as you slow down, but it isn't directly coupled like you're suggesting. It's slipping (like it is designed to) and transferring very little load to the engine, just like when you're sitting at a stoplight in drive. If you were to compare coasting downhill in a manual trans car and an auto trans car, the auto car will pick up speed just like a manual trans car in neutral. You have to lock either one into a gear to achieve any kind of engine braking.

***SMWS6TA*** · 05-14-2015, 04:18 AM

again 5.0 is correct.

Autos stall converters are the reason the car doesn't die at a light or when you apply the brakes at a light etc.. while at low rpms.

With manual there is no slipping (shouldn't be).

**wileyCoyote** · 05-14-2015, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

You're wrong on all accounts. Your stopping distance is not increased one bit by taking a car out of gear, and it's really quite simple to see. Every car has a braking threshold, or a maximum amount of braking force that can be put down before you run out of traction. On almost any car, the brakes can apply more force than the car has traction. Using an engine simply shifts some of that load off of the brakes. When they test how fast a car can stop, particularly a manual trans car, the car is either in neutral, or the clutch is in. Every single time.

And I don't think you understand how automatic transmissions operate. The engine is doing little to nothing in terms of engine braking when you're coasting in drive. It does downshift as you slow down, but it isn't directly coupled like you're suggesting. It's slipping (like it is designed to) and transferring very little load to the engine, just like when you're sitting at a stoplight in drive. If you were to compare coasting downhill in a manual trans car and an auto trans car, the auto car will pick up speed just like a manual trans car in neutral. You have to lock either one into a gear to achieve any kind of engine braking.

...so the car's operating manual is wrong?...

...again, I fail to see how slowing down w/ it in-gear is causing excessive wear on the engine... sounds like a myth in the realm of casual daily driving...

...my pickup truck (a Toyota, auto trans) will actually downshift on its own to provide engine breaking if you're going downhill and hit the brake, ...is this a strange phenomenon?... I think not..., it's absolutely sensical... and even though it's an "automatic" (i.e. slushbox, etc.) it's providing significant engine braking during the usual course of braking and coast-down...

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

You're wrong on all accounts. Your stopping distance is not increased one bit by taking a car out of gear, and it's really quite simple to see. Every car has a braking threshold, or a maximum amount of braking force that can be put down before you run out of traction. On almost any car, the brakes can apply more force than the car has traction. Using an engine simply shifts some of that load off of the brakes. When they test how fast a car can stop, particularly a manual trans car, the car is either in neutral, or the clutch is in. Every single time.

And I don't think you understand how automatic transmissions operate. The engine is doing little to nothing in terms of engine braking when you're coasting in drive. It does downshift as you slow down, but it isn't directly coupled like you're suggesting. It's slipping (like it is designed to) and transferring very little load to the engine, just like when you're sitting at a stoplight in drive. If you were to compare coasting downhill in a manual trans car and an auto trans car, the auto car will pick up speed just like a manual trans car in neutral. You have to lock either one into a gear to achieve any kind of engine braking.

...so the car's operating manual is wrong?...

...again, I fail to see how slowing down w/ it in-gear is causing excessive wear on the engine... sounds like a myth in the realm of casual daily driving...

...my pickup truck (a Toyota, auto trans) will actually downshift on its own to provide engine breaking if you're going downhill and hit the brake, ...is this a strange phenomenon?... I think not..., it's absolutely sensical... and even though it's an "automatic" (i.e. slushbox, etc.) it's providing significant engine braking during the usual course of braking and coast-down...

**5.0THIS** · 05-14-2015, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by wileyCoyote

...so the car's operating manual is wrong?...

...again, I fail to see how slowing down w/ it in-gear is causing excessive wear on the engine... sounds like a myth in the realm of casual daily driving...

...my pickup truck (a Toyota, auto trans) will actually downshift on its own to provide engine breaking if you're going downhill and hit the brake, ...is this a strange phenomenon?... I think not..., it's absolutely sensical... and even though it's an "automatic" (i.e. slushbox, etc.) it's providing significant engine braking during the usual course of braking and coast-down...

If you're going to sit and there and quote some random owner's manual, tell me WHY it is recommended to leave it in gear. I've told you why it is fairly useless, and in fact can increase wear on the vehicle.

And I already explained to you why an engine's wear is increased. If you're having a hard time understanding how increased engine load= increased engine wear, then I don't know what to tell you. It's simple physics man. A heavy load on the engine doesn't just come from heavy throttle where the engine's heavy load is delivered to the drivetrain. Under engine braking, the drivetrain's heavy load is transferred onto the engine.

And what you're describing as far as engine braking through an auto is just a programming issue. You can program an auto to hold a gear under certain throttle conditions or when brake is applied. In a default mode, any auto trans vehicle going down a hill under no load will upshift and unlock the converter, slipping and doing almost nothing to engine brake. What you are describing is an auto that is holding a gear to induce engine braking. Many cars are programmed to do so under different circumstances.

Keep going though, you've been wrong every post, but I admire your spirit and willingness to dig your heels in. You should definitely ride this one all the way to the bottom.

**wileyCoyote** · 05-14-2015, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

If you're going to sit and there and quote some random owner's manual, tell me WHY it is recommended to leave it in gear. I've told you why it is fairly useless, and in fact can increase wear on the vehicle.

And I already explained to you why an engine's wear is increased. If you're having a hard time understanding how increased engine load= increased engine wear, then I don't know what to tell you. It's simple physics man. A heavy load on the engine doesn't just come from heavy throttle where the engine's heavy load is delivered to the drivetrain. Under engine braking, the drivetrain's heavy load is transferred onto the engine.

And what you're describing as far as engine braking through an auto is just a programming issue. You can program an auto to hold a gear under certain throttle conditions or when brake is applied. In a default mode, any auto trans vehicle going down a hill under no load will upshift and unlock the converter, slipping and doing almost nothing to engine brake. What you are describing is an auto that is holding a gear to induce engine braking. Many cars are programmed to do so under different circumstances.

Keep going though, you've been wrong every post, but I admire your spirit and willingness to dig your heels in. You should definitely ride this one all the way to the bottom.

...

...

i'm not talking some random operator manual, ..i'm talking the one that came w/ my 1999 TA...

...to claim that keeping your car in gear while braking (typical daily driving, ...not racing, etc.) is causing significant wear on the engine is rather quixotic... ...wear is wear, but we're splitting hairs over the significance in daily driving... as if all the engineering that goes into "today's" automobiles, synthetic fluids, EFI, direct injection, cylinders "shutting down, etc" , ...they somehow overlooked an optimization of powertrain operations, so as to "protect" all that hardware from the abuses of coasting/braking "in-gear" (as automatics do, and they even downshift through every single gear until ultimately getting to first - ...oh the wear!!!!)...

...so, my contention, in summary: a non-issue! ...use the operator manual as the baseline...

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by 5.0THIS

If you're going to sit and there and quote some random owner's manual, tell me WHY it is recommended to leave it in gear. I've told you why it is fairly useless, and in fact can increase wear on the vehicle.

And I already explained to you why an engine's wear is increased. If you're having a hard time understanding how increased engine load= increased engine wear, then I don't know what to tell you. It's simple physics man. A heavy load on the engine doesn't just come from heavy throttle where the engine's heavy load is delivered to the drivetrain. Under engine braking, the drivetrain's heavy load is transferred onto the engine.

And what you're describing as far as engine braking through an auto is just a programming issue. You can program an auto to hold a gear under certain throttle conditions or when brake is applied. In a default mode, any auto trans vehicle going down a hill under no load will upshift and unlock the converter, slipping and doing almost nothing to engine brake. What you are describing is an auto that is holding a gear to induce engine braking. Many cars are programmed to do so under different circumstances.

Keep going though, you've been wrong every post, but I admire your spirit and willingness to dig your heels in. You should definitely ride this one all the way to the bottom.

...

...

i'm not talking some random operator manual, ..i'm talking the one that came w/ my 1999 TA...

...to claim that keeping your car in gear while braking (typical daily driving, ...not racing, etc.) is causing significant wear on the engine is rather quixotic... ...wear is wear, but we're splitting hairs over the significance in daily driving... as if all the engineering that goes into "today's" automobiles, synthetic fluids, EFI, direct injection, cylinders "shutting down, etc" , ...they somehow overlooked an optimization of powertrain operations, so as to "protect" all that hardware from the abuses of coasting/braking "in-gear" (as automatics do, and they even downshift through every single gear until ultimately getting to first - ...oh the wear!!!!)...

...so, my contention, in summary: a non-issue! ...use the operator manual as the baseline...

- - - Updated - - -

damn double-post glitch affecting me again, ...5.0 must've put a curse on me

**5.0THIS** · 05-14-2015, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by wileyCoyote

...

...

i'm not talking some random operator manual, ..i'm talking the one that came w/ my 1999 TA...

...to claim that keeping your car in gear while braking (typical daily driving, ...not racing, etc.) is causing significant wear on the engine is rather quixotic... ...wear is wear, but we're splitting hairs over the significance in daily driving... as if all the engineering that goes into "today's" automobiles, synthetic fluids, EFI, direct injection, cylinders "shutting down, etc" , ...they somehow overlooked an optimization of powertrain operations, so as to "protect" all that hardware from the abuses of coasting/braking "in-gear" (as automatics do, and they even downshift through every single gear until ultimately getting to first - ...oh the wear!!!!)...

...so, my contention, in summary: a non-issue! ...use the operator manual as the baseline...

[

Now you're just deflecting. I never said it caused a significant amount of increased wear. You're sidestepping the point, and still trying to defend your flawed argument. And again, you don't understand how automatic transmissions work. Which makes me wonder why you insisted on bringing it up and then arguing it into the ground. It doesn't matter that an auto is downshifting through the gears as you slow. If the converter is slipping and it isn't locked in and holding a gear, it isn't doing any significant engine braking. Nobody in this thread has made the suggestion that engine braking is going to cause major problems for any powertrain. It will however lead to increased wear in the drivetrain, and isn't really necessary for any reason, unless you want to save your friction brakes at the expense of your drivetrain doing that work instead. Here's some reading for you if you like...

Busting the Myths of Driving a Manual Transmission

The band on the Titanic aint got nothin' on you wiley.