automotive professor can duplicate runaway toyota

**310stanger** · 02-28-2010, 12:19 PM

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-t...ion-video.html

Its possible this guy is duplicating what happens when the toyotas are allegedly accelerating uncontrollably.

**importhater81** · 02-28-2010, 12:31 PM

The automotive industry as a whole should shit can the fly-by-wire system...the cable worked for years....Electronic throttle has had issues for years with all carmakers....toyota has seen the worst of it.

**wheeliE-maxx** · 02-28-2010, 12:33 PM

I don't see the point of it other than to neuter your throttle inputs without just cutting timing. Cable works great.

**310stanger** · 02-28-2010, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by importhater81

The automotive industry as a whole should shit can the fly-by-wire system...the cable worked for years....Electronic throttle has had issues for years with all carmakers....toyota has seen the worst of it.

As I do agree that the cable is better and ETC is a technology used just in the name of being "high tech", I wouldnt go as far as to say all manufacturers are having "issues" with it. Like anything there might be a component that goes bad here or there and NORMALLY it fires a DTC, but the car still operates in fail safe and ends up in the service department. But drive by wire as a whole is not a new concept, hell you might as well not fly in a plane anywhere then. One reason I think manufacturers use the drive by wire is because it integrates well with all the safety features as far as traction control and body control/VSC etc. Inotherwords its a way of them preserving drivetrain components.

**importhater81** · 02-28-2010, 01:00 PM

The 4th gen f-bodys integrated traction control well with the cable system.

Very true that it is not new technology and has been out for years....but the electronic system is prone to fail in an automotive enviroment.Being a G.M. tech for 10 years now.I've seen many fly-by-wire vehicles with issues that were not a result of component failure,but wiring problems due to corrosion from snow that people track in with their feet that soaks the drivers carpet,or in general water leaks due to windshields or sunroof drains...etc.All of which would not be an issue with the cable system.

It is easy to see why carmakers would go fly-by-wire due to the ease of integration of esc,traction control and other such functions...but in the end it might just end up costing them more to correct than if they would have stayed with the cable.

**gnomee** · 02-28-2010, 01:51 PM

Well thats just crazy.. Lots of people have been saying its an electronics issue I'm glad someone stepped up and gave an example.

As far as drive by wire, you guys are basically asking that we go back to carburetors. The cable on the 4th gen and any other fuel injected car is just an air controller, the gas is always controlled by wires based on the TPS sensor, so I don't think its that much more failsafe than having the air also controlled by wire. All drive by wire is doing is putting the TPS sensor down by your foot and using a little motor to move the throttle body blade.

If the sensor in the gas pedal on the Toyota can fail then the same car with a wire could have an issue with the TPS sensor and cause the same problem. I think the issue here is they did not account for all possible scenarios. Something most American companies have learned they have to do or it will cost them big time in the end.

I do see the point above about the water getting on the pedal and what not but thats just poor engineering and easily sealed up and prevented.

**LoneGunman** · 02-28-2010, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by importhater81

The 4th gen f-bodys integrated traction control well with the cable system.

Very true that it is not new technology and has been out for years....but the electronic system is prone to fail in an automotive enviroment.Being a G.M. tech for 10 years now.I've seen many fly-by-wire vehicles with issues that were not a result of component failure,but wiring problems due to corrosion from snow that people track in with their feet that soaks the drivers carpet,or in general water leaks due to windshields or sunroof drains...etc.All of which would not be an issue with the cable system.

It is easy to see why carmakers would go fly-by-wire due to the ease of integration of esc,traction control and other such functions...but in the end it might just end up costing them more to correct than if they would have stayed with the cable.

Drive-By-Wire SUCKS!! Whats gonna happen if the new-fangled electric power steering starts failing on the newer cars? Sometimes mechanical devices should just be left alone

**98Hardtop** · 02-28-2010, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by 310stanger

As I do agree that the cable is better and ETC is a technology used just in the name of being "high tech", I wouldnt go as far as to say all manufacturers are having "issues" with it.

+1. I can say that Subaru hasn't seen an issue. The closest thing we have is a cruise control clip for the cruise control and that was a few years back on a small few vehicles.

With that said, I am still a fan of the cable system.

**pecha** · 02-28-2010, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by importhater81

The automotive industry as a whole should shit can the fly-by-wire system...the cable worked for years....Electronic throttle has had issues for years with all carmakers....toyota has seen the worst of it.

**GTP231** · 02-28-2010, 04:42 PM

Aren't some of the Toyota insiders saying that this electrical repair is possibly not the fix?

**310stanger** · 02-28-2010, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by GTP231

Aren't some of the Toyota insiders saying that this electrical repair is possibly not the fix?

we dont do an electrical repair. On CTS pedals a shim is installed. On denso pedals in models other then the camry we do nothing. On effected 07 to 10 camrys we cut both the denso and cts pedal, the cts pedal receives the forementioned shim and we install new styrofoam pads under the carpet that are thinner.

Toyota released a video stating they dont believe its an electrical issue, but a mechanical one. Hence the recall I perform at least 10 times a day lol

**gnomee** · 02-28-2010, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by GTP231

Aren't some of the Toyota insiders saying that this electrical repair is possibly not the fix?

You mean the wedge?

I'm skeptical of the wedge... This thing has cost them tons of money and been a big deal... First it was floor mats now they are saying a wedge?

I find it REAL hard to believe it has taken them this long to fix a problem that can be fixed by a wedge...

**310stanger** · 02-28-2010, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by gnomee

You mean the wedge?

I'm skeptical of the wedge... This thing has cost them tons of money and been a big deal... First it was floor mats now they are saying a wedge?

I find it REAL hard to believe it has taken them this long to fix a problem that can be fixed by a wedge...

if by wedge you mean the shim or in toyota talk the "reinforcement bar" its a tiny lil piece of metal and if anything its an extension of them cheaping out. In the long run them cheaping out on it with probably cost them a lot of money, but not directly. the actual parts consist of a tiny lil metal shim, a piece of styrofoam, and a foam rubber stopper pad. Might cost them 5 to 10 bucks total.

**GTP231** · 02-28-2010, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by 310stanger

we dont do an electrical repair. On CTS pedals a shim is installed. On denso pedals in models other then the camry we do nothing. On effected 07 to 10 camrys we cut both the denso and cts pedal, the cts pedal receives the forementioned shim and we install new styrofoam pads under the carpet that are thinner.

Toyota released a video stating they dont believe its an electrical issue, but a mechanical one. Hence the recall I perform at least 10 times a day lol

Oh I thought it was something electrical you guys were doing depending on the model car. Haven't been following it extremely close. Starting to do Furd training so my attention has been elsewhere
Funny how I got ripped on for saying a Silverado is superior to a Tundra the other day

**310stanger** · 02-28-2010, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by GTP231

Oh I thought it was something electrical you guys were doing depending on the model car. Haven't been following it extremely close. Starting to do Furd training so my attention has been elsewhere
Funny how I got ripped on for saying a Silverado is superior to a Tundra the other day

the silverado is superior to a tundra. the tundra has a kickass powertrain and i think they look nice. But the frame is a piece of shit. I could never bring myself to buying a jap pickup. even if its made here. America does the pickup truck best. However, I believe the F150 is the best truck. just hate the current styling.

Nah no electrical repair. Even though that professor and the people with the problem actually happening suggest that its very possible its electrical in nature. A short of some kind that the monitors dont pickup, hence no DTC.

Do as much Ford training as you can, ford is on top of their technology and you can learn a lot.

**MrAFX** · 02-28-2010, 05:37 PM

naw, my duramax silverado has been a very very good truck. except for the five gallons of dirty water I got in my tank, it's been problem free!

**wheeliE-maxx** · 02-28-2010, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by gnomee

Well thats just crazy.. Lots of people have been saying its an electronics issue I'm glad someone stepped up and gave an example.As far as drive by wire, you guys are basically asking that we go back to carburetors. The cable on the 4th gen and any other fuel injected car is just an air controller, the gas is always controlled by wires based on the TPS sensor, so I don't think its that much more failsafe than having the air also controlled by wire. All drive by wire is doing is putting the TPS sensor down by your foot and using a little motor to move the throttle body blade.
If the sensor in the gas pedal on the Toyota can fail then the same car with a wire could have an issue with the TPS sensor and cause the same problem. I think the issue here is they did not account for all possible scenarios. Something most American companies have learned they have to do or it will cost them big time in the end.I do see the point above about the water getting on the pedal and what not but thats just poor engineering and easily sealed up and prevented.

da hell? The tps can malfunction and say what it wants, go to power enrichment or whatever with a cable throttle. But with a closed butterfly the engine isn't taking off

**importhater81** · 02-28-2010, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by gnomee

Well thats just crazy.. Lots of people have been saying its an electronics issue I'm glad someone stepped up and gave an example.

As far as drive by wire, you guys are basically asking that we go back to carburetors. The cable on the 4th gen and any other fuel injected car is just an air controller, the gas is always controlled by wires based on the TPS sensor, so I don't think its that much more failsafe than having the air also controlled by wire. All drive by wire is doing is putting the TPS sensor down by your foot and using a little motor to move the throttle body blade.

If the sensor in the gas pedal on the Toyota can fail then the same car with a wire could have an issue with the TPS sensor and cause the same problem. I think the issue here is they did not account for all possible scenarios. Something most American companies have learned they have to do or it will cost them big time in the end.

I do see the point above about the water getting on the pedal and what not but thats just poor engineering and easily sealed up and prevented.

I'd love to run a carb on everything I own...holley only of course.Big ole return spring on it and that bitch is never going to stick wide open!!!I guess I'm just old school though!

**wheeliE-maxx** · 02-28-2010, 06:52 PM

You can open and close a cable throttle even when it's off. So it definetly won't take off on it's own

**NE-Firebird** · 02-28-2010, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by wheeliE-maxx

da hell? The tps can malfunction and say what it wants, go to power enrichment or whatever with a cable throttle. But with a closed butterfly the engine isn't taking off

WINNER!

As someone that's been doing embedded control for over a dozen years, I say that wheeliE-maxx sums it up perfectly!!

With a throttle-based system, the IAC (Idle Air Controller) is the main source for RPM increase. Also, timing adjustment can add a slight RPM increase. And also, in variable cam setups, the cam timing can add a slight RPM increase.

Still, you're talking typically ~1,500 RPM to 2,000RPM max. Plus, the IAC (idle function) should be disabled fully when the car is going more than ~5mph.

Note that "dashpot functions" can sometimes use the IAC. But, that's during fast decelerations and with very quick throttle closings (i.e. going from a floored throttle when going up a steep hill, to completely letting off the throttle after the car crests the hill).

So, with a throttle based system, the "worse case" "unintended acceleration" that any even HALF-*SSED designed EFI system should see is minimal, and should easily be controlled by the brakes because the car speed during "unintended acceleration" would be be below ~10MPH.

Warning: [rant on]

I agree that it seems that who ever did the Toyota EFI systems did NOT have a CLUE on Control System design, faults, software safety protocols, etc.

Many vehicles (jets, etc) have been using "fly by wire" systems for many years. That's one reason why the study of Control Systems has *massively* expended in the past ~15 years. You do NOT have some idiot "20-something x-box guru" do the control system for a critical system. That's why where I work, we have a number of people with their PhDs in Control System theory and design.

Yea, many high school students can build and design their own neato robots and remote control cars. However, they have very simple controls, nearly no safety checks, and have "testing" that amounts to "it didn't burst into flames, so it's 100% perfect!"

Also, I would like to put EVERY clueless "automotive expert" that says that "any car's brakes" should be able to stop a 60MPH car with the accelerator floored on a one way path to a cliff. And, have them "show" how they can bring "the car to a stop", as we all laugh our *sses off as the idiot plunges off the cliff.
[rant off]

BTW: Also notice in the article:
“Other vehicle manufacturers have gone to great extremes [to prevent the problem he found on Toyotas],” he said. His tests on GM cars did not find a similar flaw, he said, “not even close.”