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Water/Methanol injection ?

This is a discussion on Water/Methanol injection ? within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; if you like the build then i don't see a problem with it.. nor do i see a problem using ...

  1. #41
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    if you like the build then i don't see a problem with it..
    nor do i see a problem using staight methanol.

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    Member Bouvers's Avatar
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    what would be a reasonable expectation for gains?

  3. #43
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    There are some terrible (and some wrong) ideas concerning methanol in this thread...

    Bouvers...

    Case in pint, recent previously cam-only car:
    g5x1, true duals, lid, etc, car made 380rwhp

    Added P1sc intercooled setup and 5psi. I could only make 443rwhp and the car was on the verge on knocking the whole time... This was at 11.5:1 AFR and 14-16deg timing. After adding the meth, I worked the AFR to about 11.2 steady and the timing came back up to just over 20degs and was NOWHERE near knocking. At this level the car put down 492rwhp. This is an exceptional case, but all 100% true. The kit is core; if you buy a cheap kit, you risk hurting your engine if it fails. Buy Alkycontrol (ECS's setup is alkycontrol) and you won't have a worry; I have had too many customers skimp on cost for their meth system and seriously regret it. Run only straight methanol.

  4. #44
    Member Bouvers's Avatar
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    I assume there is nothing wrong with running a methanol injection kit on a NA car... you just won't see as much out of it as you would say if you were helping a FI engine correct?

    I'll deffinately look into that kit I haven't taken the cheap route for anything on my car yet I'm not going to start once I've spent all the money on H/C/I, I just don't know what a good kit is and which ones to stay away from.

  5. #45
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I have no idea why you would want to run one on an N/A car unless it was 13:1 SCR... It's primary function is lowering IATs from a compressed pipe; which you don't have. Also, all of the good progressive systems are MAP-based. You won't even be able to turn them on and if you could, they would need an RPM referenced controller to be progressive, and I have never seen such a device.

  6. #46
    Member Bouvers's Avatar
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    well whats left for a small power adder thats relatively inexpensive that will give a few extra hp if I want it after h/c/i? I don't want to spend the money on N20 because I know I would want to do DP Injection and I would rather spend that money on a roots... and I'm not looking to spend that much money or gain that much hp...

    so whats the next step I guess is what I'm after... something inexpensive with decent gains...

  7. #47
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    WOW! When I started this thread, I was actually thinking about using it for a naturally aspirated engine. Now I have FI and I am considering it again.

  8. #48
    Member Bouvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    WOW! When I started this thread, I was actually thinking about using it for a naturally aspirated engine. Now I have FI and I am considering it again.
    lol its funny how things go isn't it?... I've ran into some of my old posts before I even bought my ls1... kind of weird reading it...

  9. #49
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
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    We have done meth. injection on a NA 2002 Z28 cam + bolt-on and it made a great improvements in e.t and mph.

    Why do meth. on an NA car? Because all motors will make more power with cooler IATs and most motor setups will also benefit from increased timing that the meth. allows for.

    As for running straight meth instead of a 50/50 mix, not all systems can run straight meth. The difference is the seals in the pump need to be able to withstand the corrosive nature of straight meth. or it won't last long.

    We sell a pump that is 100% meth. compatible.

    As for the controller question, we also sell a PWM controller that can use a number of inputs to activate, including TPS signal. While it can provide a linear increase, it's not necessary on an NA motor.

    Where to buy meth? 100% Methanol can be purchased anywhere that sells race gas and it can also be purchased at hobby shops, since RC cars are powered by meth.


    04 GTO A4 6.6 liter,AFR 225,STS 76mm Turbo,96# Injectors,Innovate XD-16,Methanol,HPTuners,Custom Fuel,etc.

    Best E.T. 10.66 @ 130 mph http://www.mongillomotors.com/1066vid.html


    LSX Tuning with Mustang MD-1100 Eddy Current Dyno & HPTuners in the New Haven, CT. area

  10. #50
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgz06 View Post
    We have done meth. injection on a NA 2002 Z28 cam + bolt-on and it made a great improvements in e.t and mph.

    Why do meth. on an NA car? Because all motors will make more power with cooler IATs and most motor setups will also benefit from increased timing that the meth. allows for.

    As for running straight meth instead of a 50/50 mix, not all systems can run straight meth. The difference is the seals in the pump need to be able to withstand the corrosive nature of straight meth. or it won't last long.

    We sell a pump that is 100% meth. compatible.

    As for the controller question, we also sell a PWM controller that can use a number of inputs to activate, including TPS signal. While it can provide a linear increase, it's not necessary on an NA motor.

    Where to buy meth? 100% Methanol can be purchased anywhere that sells race gas and it can also be purchased at hobby shops, since RC cars are powered by meth.


    Nice, well then there ya go

    Julio pulls all of his pumps apart and replaces all of the sensitive bits so that the pumps live well with straight meth. Not counting the system on my car, every other car that I have ever tuned with an Alkycontrol system still has them and have had no issues. These are regular drivers with straight meth for over 3 years now.

    What did the car do before and after on the rollers? What was the SCR of the test car? Was it straight meth?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouvers View Post

    questions remain, can you run pure methanol injection in the kit that is "designed" for water/meth injection? What is a moderate and reasonable expectation for a meth injection kit as far as hp gained from advancing the timing? Where do you find pure methanol I assume windshield washer fluid isn't pure methanol...
    NO! The reason is because of the seals in the pump like has been mentioned previously. I'm very close freinds with julio and we sell his kits. You mentioned that you want to build some failsafes? well julio has already done that for you with his kit! The kits are very well thought out and come complete with braided stainless steel lines, brass fittings and step by step instructions..

    Good luck with your endevor!

    Scot W.

  12. #52
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Nice, well then there ya go


    What did the car do before and after on the rollers? What was the SCR of the test car? Was it straight meth?

    We did this car before we had our dyno, but the real numbers are from the track.

    Prior to the meth. install, the car did a best e.t. of 12.98@102 mph with a tune from another company.

    We then installed the meth. system and retuned the car.

    Went back to the same track and in hotter weather went 12.4 at 106 mph.

    Then went back to the same track on a cooler day and went 12.0 @ 107 mph.

    Logged all runs with HPTuners, first run had 4 degrees of KR and the injectors were maxed out. Second and third run had more timing, no KR and the injectors were no longer maxed out. Sixty foot times were all in the 1.90 range on DRs.

    A few degrees more timing (while eliminating knock) and a 50 degree drop in IATs is the HP difference.

    My guess would be about a 25-30 rwhp improvement. We will be doing heads on this car at some point and we will be able to dyno it with & without meth.

  13. #53
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    That's a pretty insane N/A gain and can't really be typical... I had a C5 on the dyno this AM that had an older Vortech setup (Carroll supercharging company, now out of business) and it made about 8-9psi. With no meth, the car made 424rwhp and 398rwtq. With the meth and retuning the car made 457rwhp and 422rwtq. It's hard to accept that you got more (or at least as much) of a gain on a STOCK N/A setup than our FI setup which had NO intercooler; not calling you a liar, those numbers just seem out of line to the very-high side.

    I can post a graph of the car I tuned...

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    That's a pretty insane N/A gain and can't really be typical... I had a C5 on the dyno this AM that had an older Vortech setup (Carroll supercharging company, now out of business) and it made about 8-9psi. With no meth, the car made 424rwhp and 398rwtq. With the meth and retuning the car made 457rwhp and 422rwtq. It's hard to accept that you got more (or at least as much) of a gain on a STOCK N/A setup than our FI setup which had NO intercooler; not calling you a liar, those numbers just seem out of line to the very-high side.

    I can post a graph of the car I tuned...
    The 1/4 mile numbers don't lie. As far as typical goes, this is the only NA car we have done. What numbers have you seen from adding meth to an NA car?

    The conditions were right for this car, it was out of injector, it had KR and every car could use a cooler intake charge. Especially after waiting in the staging lanes & burnout have put heat into the motor.

    Instead of him spending $400 on injectors he spent the money on the meth kit. Injectors wouldn't have gained him much.

    On FI cars we usually see a 30-50 rwhp improvement with methanol. What were your before and after IAT readings? Before and after total timing? Before and after AFR? What was the CR? I would consider 28 hp gain with meth on a Non-intercooled car on the very low side, but every combo is different, so if you feel that that's all that could be safely gained, then so be it.

    I am sure that the tune was also very important in the 1 second reduction in e.t. so we can't attribute it all to the meth. that is why I estimated 25 rwhp since it takes more than 25 rwhp to knock off a second. Remember, these were all best times out of multiple runs, not a one time fluke.

    BTW, my customer went to the track with my laptop for scanning on the day of the last run. He called with the good news right from the track and needless to say he was all

  15. #55
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgz06 View Post
    .....
    The conditions were right for this car, it was out of injector, it had KR and every car could use a cooler intake charge. Especially after waiting in the staging lanes & burnout have put heat into the motor.

    Instead of him spending $400 on injectors he spent the money on the meth kit. Injectors wouldn't have gained him much.

    On FI cars we usually see a 30-50 rwhp improvement with methanol. What were your before and after IAT readings? Before and after total timing? Before and after AFR? What was the CR? I would consider 28 hp gain with meth on a Non-intercooled car on the very low side, but every combo is different, so if you feel that that's all that could be safely gained, then so be it.

    I am sure that the tune was also very important in the 1 second reduction in e.t. so we can't attribute it all to the meth. that is why I estimated 25 rwhp since it takes more than 25 rwhp to knock off a second. Remember, these were all best times out of multiple runs, not a one time fluke.
    ......

    your car trapped 102 before meth and was out of injector?? I have dozens of cars running 116-122MPH on STOCK injectors and pumps; even the smaller injectors found in the 99-00s.. It still sounds odd to net that gain. I have had stock cars (or boltons) more than once that had race fuel and just didn't make more HP even though the timing was pushed up-up. The timing is where the extra power is found for FI by and large. Of course it's not possible without the cooling and octane value of the meth.

    Most FI cars do pick up more than this one I tuned this AM from the meth, but timing was at 17ish around peak tq, 19-20 below that and up to 20.5 up top. It had stock valve springs so we stopped the pulls at 6100RPMs which was where peak power was made each time. Still, it made 465rwhp @ 8-9psi and the rest of the car was BONE stock, down to the exhaust manifolds, cats and cat-back.

  16. #56
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    your car trapped 102 before meth and was out of injector?? I have dozens of cars running 116-122MPH on STOCK injectors and pumps; even the smaller injectors found in the 99-00s.. It still sounds odd to net that gain. I have had stock cars (or boltons) more than once that had race fuel and just didn't make more HP even though the timing was pushed up-up. The timing is where the extra power is found for FI by and large. Of course it's not possible without the cooling and octane value of the meth.

    Most FI cars do pick up more than this one I tuned this AM from the meth, but timing was at 17ish around peak tq, 19-20 below that and up to 20.5 up top. It had stock valve springs so we stopped the pulls at 6100RPMs which was where peak power was made each time. Still, it made 465rwhp @ 8-9psi and the rest of the car was BONE stock, down to the exhaust manifolds, cats and cat-back.

    Let me break it down so that you understand it better

    1. Not my car, it's a customers car.
    2. First Run logged was with a previous tune from another tuner. I don't know what his actual AFR was at that time, but commanded AFR was 11.22, which probably made the car too rich and maxed out the injectors. In addition, it had knock through the run and the shift points were set to low.
    3. Injectors have nothing to do with mph. If the tune commands more fuel than neccassary, the injectors will max out early and the car will trap at a lower speed.
    4. Once I tuned the car, set the proper AFR, proper timing and proper shift points, his injectors were then still maxed out because it was actually making more power now.
    5. We then added the meth. system, retuned for the meth. which scales back the demand on the stock injectors and now the injectors are under 80% duty cycle.
    6. I was wrong on the mph, orginal tune (12.98 E.T.) trapped 107 mph and the meth. tune trapped 112 mph. My guess is without the meth his e.t. would have been 109-110 through a converter.


    FYI, you're wrong about the timing being the main contributor to the extra power found with meth. it's pretty close to equal with the denser air. Want proof? Take a car that you dynoed on a 90 degree day in the summer and dyno it in 40 degree weather in the winter and see how much more actual horsepower and torque is improved while leaving the tune the same and using the same octane gas.

    You know, with a car on the dyno, it's pretty easy to set-up a temporary portable meth. system to test on an NA car, then you can be able to give us some details on what happened.

  17. #57
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    No need to be like that; I understand just fine; that's why I questioned what you typed.

    You have a large gain that you attributed to methanol but you left out a lot of details... some huge.

    In your previous post, you say: The conditions were right for this car, it was out of injector... Instead of him spending $400 on injectors he spent the money on the meth kit. Injectors wouldn't have gained him much.
    that doesn't mean that it was miserably fat and needed to be leaned out, that means that it didn't have enough fuel and you said that the meth helped him get more out of it without spending on injectors; which he clearly did not in fact need anyway. This is the way that you presented your data; a car with a miserably and hopelessly (it IS if you are running out the stock injectors at 107MPH) screwed up tune had meth added and then was properly tuned and you updated with new track results. There is no control, and certainly very little science here. There is not an engineer on the planet who would use this case in his favor. If you wanted to *actually see what the meth was worth* the car would have been tuned off of it, run and then tuned on it and re-tested.

    to your numbers:

    1. didn't say it was yours; you already said customer car
    2. That's not what you said a few posts up, you said it was "out of injector" which is lean and >100% IDC, not rich as you say here
    3. No one has argued this point at any place in this thread
    4. You have contradicted your own typing from point #2 where you said they maxed from being too rich
    5. ..........


    FYI - I'm not wrong about timing making the power for FI, and I have a pile of logs and graphs that show this rather than just abject forum claims. The same car from yesterday AM picked up 10rwhp adding the meth and getting the AFR back to the 11.5ish area it was at before the meth. 5 degrees of timing that was added up top netted 23rwhp. This is not opinion or dubious uncontrolled testing; these were the real results.

  18. #58
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
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    Frost, this thread is about meth. injection on an NA car and if there is an improvement in doing so.

    We've done it, you haven't.

    I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you of anything, or try and break down every last detail for you so that you understand.

    If the conditions are right, the meth can definitely improve power on an NA car, this is a fact that I proved. Retuning the car with a proper tune would not have been enough to drop a second in E.T. and pick up 5 mph in trap speed. In addition, his injectors WERE maxed out after it had the proper tune.

    You keep running your 122 mph trap speed on stock injectors, the rest of us are just wasting money on injectors I guess.

    Also, I didn't think I had to point out the obvious that all track are not at the same altitude and therefore E.T.s and MPH are affected by that.

    Bottom line is if you don't believe, I don't care.

  19. #59
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Well I am sorry that I like to use controlled experimenting and data rather than conjecture, and I will keep my replies professional.

    The problem here really isn't my understanding, as you have put it twice now, and your condescension is seriously misappropriated.

    The bottom line is, if you had good data, it could be subjected to honest scrutiny rather than you just getting mad.

  20. #60
    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
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    Well here is an actual graph that was done to see the IDC / IAT's differance WITHOUT methanol and WITH methanol....


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