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Water/Methanol injection ?

This is a discussion on Water/Methanol injection ? within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I see there is some misconceptions on methanol injection and tuning! For #1. Methanol is not to cover up mistakes! ...

  1. #21
    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
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    I see there is some misconceptions on methanol injection and tuning! For #1. Methanol is not to cover up mistakes! thats like saying race gas is for covering up mistakes! NOT TRUE! (More octane is just more octane period!)Methanol injection is to cool the air intake charge!, thus allowing you to run more boost!, thus allowing you to run more timing!, Thus giving you more power! running pure methanol injection also lowers your injector duty cycle by 15-20%. Allowing all that listed above to happen without having to upgrade your fuel system... Just because you use methanol injection doesn't mean your going to blow your engine up either. There is a very safe way to accomplish all this and still have a very safe tune. I myself have been running this set up on my car now for years and racing it several times every year at the dragstrip and on the autocross.

    Scot w.

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    the methanol only raises the octane a little bit. the water is what really helps.

    the water raises octane, reduces knock, and absorbes heat during combustion and then leaves the engine through the exhaust.

    the alcohol is simply added because water is not flamable.


    the true purpose of water/methanol injection cooling, but it doesnt cool like nitrous or an aftercooler/intercooler does. nitrous and intercoolers cool the intake air. (the oxygen in the n2o also burns but im only refering to its effect pre combustion). water absorbes heat during combustion and turns to steam.

    there will be some degree of cooling of the intake air temperatures because the water/meth is going from a higher pressure to lower pressure when being sprayed. this however is only noticible when the intake temperature is higher (such as in forced induction when the compressed air is hotter) in a na car you would be trying to cool air that isnt all that hot to begin with. its like droping an ice cube into a cup of hot water compared to droping it into a cup of cold water.

    but the true cooling of water/meth comes from the water absorbing the heat during combustion and turning to steam. this means that instead of transfering the heat into the cylinder walls, much of the heat (but not all of course) is transfered to the water and the released into atmosphere via exhaust. this also helps knock greatly because excesive heat in the engine is what detonates fuel prematurly

    water/methanol is NOT a power adder, it is a method of cooling. it works on a completly different principal than nitrous. if you want a power adder with a on/off switch use nitrous. if your afraid of nitrous, stay stock or modify something else.

    water/methanol injection is prety archaic technology. the only time id ever use it is on a forced induction car that cant use an intercooler (roots supercharger).

    there are many other things that can solve the problem that water/meth does.
    if you need to raise octane... use higher octane fuel, possibly race fuel.
    if you need to cool your engine... use a better coolng system.
    if you need to cool the intake air... use an intercooler (froced induction of course)

    im my opinion water/methanol is not well suited for stock engines because they have none of the problems that water/methanol solves.

    heres an awsome wikipedia article on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_i..._%28engines%29
    Last edited by drewhenderson13; 11-28-2007 at 09:54 AM. Reason: added something

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    i would also like to add that there is no "chemical" cooling in the cooling of the intake air. when companies like snow advirtis that is "chemicly" cools it is simply misleading advirtisment.

    chemical referes to a chemical change ie burning, bonding, etc. the cooling of the intake air is physical. the colder water/meth absorbes the heat from the slightly warmer intake air and the equalized temperature is therefor lower. (as stated before this is only noticible when the intake air is significantly hotter)

    the chemical reaction doesnt occure until the methanol burns in the combustion, but this has nothing to do with cooling.

    the whole concept of water/methanol injection works on the principal of controled transfer of energy... not unlike the radiator, only instead of being recirculated it is released into atmosphere.
    Last edited by drewhenderson13; 11-28-2007 at 09:56 AM. Reason: added something

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    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewhenderson13 View Post
    the methanol only raises the octane a little bit. the water is what really helps.

    the water raises octane, reduces knock, and absorbes heat during combustion and then leaves the engine through the exhaust.

    the alcohol is simply added because water is not flamable.


    the true purpose of water/methanol injection cooling, but it doesnt cool like nitrous or an aftercooler/intercooler does. nitrous and intercoolers cool the intake air. (the oxygen in the n2o also burns but im only refering to its effect pre combustion). water absorbes heat during combustion and turns to steam.

    there will be some degree of cooling of the intake air temperatures because the water/meth is going from a higher pressure to lower pressure when being sprayed. this however is only noticible when the intake temperature is higher (such as in forced induction when the compressed air is hotter) in a na car you would be trying to cool air that isnt all that hot to begin with. its like droping an ice cube into a cup of hot water compared to droping it into a cup of cold water.

    but the true cooling of water/meth comes from the water absorbing the heat during combustion and turning to steam. this means that instead of transfering the heat into the cylinder walls, much of the heat (but not all of course) is transfered to the water and the released into atmosphere via exhaust. this also helps knock greatly because excesive heat in the engine is what detonates fuel prematurly

    water/methanol is NOT a power adder, it is a method of cooling. it works on a completly different principal than nitrous. if you want a power adder with a on/off switch use nitrous. if your afraid of nitrous, stay stock or modify something else.

    water/methanol injection is prety archaic technology. the only time id ever use it is on a forced induction car that cant use an intercooler (roots supercharger).

    there are many other things that can solve the problem that water/meth does.
    if you need to raise octane... use higher octane fuel, possibly race fuel.
    if you need to cool your engine... use a better coolng system.
    if you need to cool the intake air... use an intercooler (froced induction of course)

    im my opinion water/methanol is not well suited for stock engines because they have none of the problems that water/methanol solves.

    heres an awsome wikipedia article on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_i..._%28engines%29
    Do you have a car with a water/methanol kit? or are you just reading stuff?

    Just to let you know, I was not talking about a N/A engine or water/methanol mixture, I was talking about Pure Progressive Methanol Injection!!.

    Water has a flash point of 180 deg witch means it needs to reach that to effectivly evaporate.
    And your water/methanol mix would have a flash point of 130 deg.

    Pure Methanol has a flash point of 70 deg!!!!!.... Wich is cooler?

    Sure water injection works Too a Point!
    Sure water/methanol mix works Too a Point!
    But Pure Methanol works beyond that!


    If you need to see some real data from a FAST system showing the cooling effect with Pure Methanol I can post it if you like!
    *Without*= 104 deg. Air intake temp...
    *With meth only" = 55 deg. Air intake temp...


    Here is a dyno video of a V6 on 92 octane pump gas and "PURE METHANOL INJECTION"
    http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv

    Show me these kind of results using water/meth!
    Last edited by scot w.; 11-28-2007 at 02:25 PM.

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    Your right, i stand corrected.....
    It can be useful in pressurized or nitrous engines.
    I just don't believe it should be used to mask a problem..

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot w. View Post
    I see there is some misconceptions on methanol injection and tuning! For #1. Methanol is not to cover up mistakes! thats like saying race gas is for covering up mistakes! NOT TRUE! (More octane is just more octane period!)Methanol injection is to cool the air intake charge!, thus allowing you to run more boost!, thus allowing you to run more timing!, Thus giving you more power! running pure methanol injection also lowers your injector duty cycle by 15-20%. Allowing all that listed above to happen without having to upgrade your fuel system... Just because you use methanol injection doesn't mean your going to blow your engine up either. There is a very safe way to accomplish all this and still have a very safe tune. I myself have been running this set up on my car now for years and racing it several times every year at the dragstrip and on the autocross.

    Scot w.
    es exactly, but meth also increases the octane account aswell being the part of it as why you are able to run more timing among the lower IAT charge. Both are benificial and maximize power while like stated freeing up some room on the fuel system but....... to me if you have to soley rely on it 'in your tune' than if it fails its jsut one more thing to go run and you guessed it, you are gonna be lean. We all now what happens than especially under high boost pressure. If pure race car, than i say for sure but than you might as well run race gas instead. You don't see the added cooling effect but the real gain is having no knock from the higher octane fuel as all high performance setups demand. Max effort on straight pump gas on the street in hella cool to me but like I said, every setup is different as are goals. I may set my system up to progresssively spray a bit to get that bit of cooling effect whilte helping out on the shitty 91 octane and yet if it fails than so shouldn't my motor. Of coarse with a good tune, rich, etc. Anways, meth has its place but not for all. It definetly will make a FI sytem shine to its full potential though. Another issue is having another tank/resevoir to keep full as well. Not everywhere when you are out cruizing or on a trip can you just fine some meth, unless you want to run washer fluid. How about NO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olde Skoole View Post
    Your right, i stand corrected.....
    It can be useful in pressurized or nitrous engines.
    I just don't believe it should be used to mask a problem..
    I never said it should be used to mask a problem! ?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot w. View Post
    Do you have a car with a water/methanol kit? or are you just reading stuff?

    Just to let you know, I was not talking about a N/A engine or water/methanol mixture, I was talking about Pure Progressive Methanol Injection!!.

    Water has a flash point of 180 deg witch means it needs to reach that to effectivly evaporate.
    And your water/methanol mix would have a flash point of 130 deg.

    Pure Methanol has a flash point of 70 deg!!!!!.... Wich is cooler?

    Sure water injection works Too a Point!
    Sure water/methanol mix works Too a Point!
    But Pure Methanol works beyond that!


    If you need to see some real data from a FAST system showing the cooling effect with Pure Methanol I can post it if you like!
    *Without*= 104 deg. Air intake temp...
    *With meth only" = 55 deg. Air intake temp...


    Here is a dyno video of a V6 on 92 octane pump gas and "PURE METHANOL INJECTION"
    http://www.campbellautomotive.com/1000hpv6.wmv

    Show me these kind of results using water/meth!
    first off his whole question was about water/methanol injection, not pure methanol injection.

    second, flash point refers to the lowest temperature something will burn. water cant burn so using it to describe the boiling point of water is inacurate.

    and third what does the flash point of methanol have to do with anything im talking about?

    i never said anything about water/meth being better than pure methanol injection. why are you challenging me to prove water/meth is better? his question was specificly about water/methanol injection, therfore thats what i was talking about.

    no i dont own anything with water/meth injection, but why would that mean i dont know what im talking about? i dont own an airplane, but i know how thay work. does that mean im wrong?

    i was simply explaining the sience behind the whole thing. actually owning it would do very little to my scientific understand of the subject.

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    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Websy21 View Post
    es exactly, but meth also increases the octane account aswell being the part of it as why you are able to run more timing among the lower IAT charge. Both are benificial and maximize power while like stated freeing up some room on the fuel system but....... to me if you have to soley rely on it 'in your tune' than if it fails its jsut one more thing to go run and you guessed it, you are gonna be lean. We all now what happens than especially under high boost pressure. If pure race car, than i say for sure but than you might as well run race gas instead. You don't see the added cooling effect but the real gain is having no knock from the higher octane fuel as all high performance setups demand. Max effort on straight pump gas on the street in hella cool to me but like I said, every setup is different as are goals. I may set my system up to progresssively spray a bit to get that bit of cooling effect whilte helping out on the shitty 91 octane and yet if it fails than so shouldn't my motor. Of coarse with a good tune, rich, etc. Anways, meth has its place but not for all. It definetly will make a FI sytem shine to its full potential though. Another issue is having another tank/resevoir to keep full as well. Not everywhere when you are out cruizing or on a trip can you just fine some meth, unless you want to run washer fluid. How about NO!
    On your coment about another tank to keep full, after your out driving around for the evning and park your car in the garage and pop your hood and leave it open. you get up the next morning
    check the tank level, if it's low Fill It! I have all kinds of failsafes built into my systems to try and prevent or catch anything wrong and it also includes a "Low Level Sensor". Our system on the GN "IS Progressive" It starts to slowly ramp the methanol in well before there is any possibility of detonation and it ramps up as the boost comes up this is seen with a small LED light mounted right next to your boost gauge.

    The bottom line is: with a water/methanonl mix there isn't much tuning involved. Why? (cause it don't do much)- You don't see the big drop in injector duty cycle, You don't see the big differance in A/F ratio so your really not going to see that big of a performance gain as you would with pure methanol.

    I'm not knocking the water/methanol mix, (It is, what It is!)

    Scot w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot w. View Post
    On your coment about another tank to keep full, after your out driving around for the evning and park your car in the garage and pop your hood and leave it open. you get up the next morning
    check the tank level, if it's low Fill It! I have all kinds of failsafes built into my systems to try and prevent or catch anything wrong and it also includes a "Low Level Sensor". Our system on the GN "IS Progressive" It starts to slowly ramp the methanol in well before there is any possibility of detonation and it ramps up as the boost comes up this is seen with a small LED light mounted right next to your boost gauge.

    The bottom line is: with a water/methanonl mix there isn't much tuning involved. Why? (cause it don't do much)- You don't see the big drop in injector duty cycle, You don't see the big differance in A/F ratio so your really not going to see that big of a performance gain as you would with pure methanol.

    I'm not knocking the water/methanol mix, (It is, what It is!)

    Scot w.
    your kind of comparing apples to oranges when your talking about water/meth vs. pure methanol.

    as i said before, the true purpose of water/meth injection or pure water injection is for the water to absorbe heat during combustion and then exit through the exhaust.

    methanol injection is ment to cool the intake air and add more fuel.

    why are you acting like im bashing methanol injection and your opinion of it?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by drewhenderson13 View Post
    first off his whole question was about water/methanol injection, not pure methanol injection.

    second, flash point refers to the lowest temperature something will burn. water cant burn so using it to describe the boiling point of water is inacurate.

    and third what does the flash point of methanol have to do with anything im talking about?

    i never said anything about water/meth being better than pure methanol injection. why are you challenging me to prove water/meth is better? his question was specificly about water/methanol injection, therfore thats what i was talking about.

    no i dont own anything with water/meth injection, but why would that mean i dont know what im talking about? i dont own an airplane, but i know how thay work. does that mean im wrong?

    i was simply explaining the sience behind the whole thing. actually owning it would do very little to my scientific understand of the subject.
    And I was simply explaining the diferance between the two! and what would be better. Thats all...

    Owning Both a water/methanol kit and a Straight Progressive Methanol kit might do ALOT for your scientific understanding of this subject then you can see first hand the benefits and downfalls.

    Knowing how an airplane works and knowing how to fly one are two different things!!!!

    No harm feelings bud! I'm just trying to help people understand alittle more about the benefits of straight methanol.

    Scot w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drewhenderson13 View Post
    your kind of comparing apples to oranges when your talking about water/meth vs. pure methanol.

    as i said before, the true purpose of water/meth injection or pure water injection is for the water to absorbe heat during combustion and then exit through the exhaust.

    methanol injection is ment to cool the intake air and add more fuel.

    why are you acting like im bashing methanol injection and your opinion of it?
    I'm not acting like your bashing methanol injection at all! (shrug!) I guess my point here is: If your going to go out and buy an injection system why use water or water/meth when your basically trying to accomplish the same thing? curb detonation!

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    Scot. W
    would a water meth kit be beneficial on a stock motor if i got it tuned to use that? is it safe for a daily driver if i were to use it all the time?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180ls1 View Post
    Scot. W
    would a water meth kit be beneficial on a stock motor if i got it tuned to use that? is it safe for a daily driver if i were to use it all the time?
    stock motor with forced induction? You would get the best results from pure methanol!! On a N/A motor It would be a waste of money! IMO. A striaght methanol kit might do SOME good allowing you to raise the timing but the sole purpose is for these kits to be used in forced induction applications. Thats where you will really see the methanol's potential.

    Scot w.
    Last edited by scot w.; 11-29-2007 at 07:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot w. View Post
    And I was simply explaining the diferance between the two! and what would be better. Thats all...

    Owning Both a water/methanol kit and a Straight Progressive Methanol kit might do ALOT for your scientific understanding of this subject then you can see first hand the benefits and downfalls.

    Knowing how an airplane works and knowing how to fly one are two different things!!!!

    No harm feelings bud! I'm just trying to help people understand alittle more about the benefits of straight methanol.

    Scot w.
    were not talking about knowing how to drive. anyone can buy a water/met or pure meth injection kit and run it on their car. driving is the easy part. knowing how it works is the haard part.

    i dont need to "see" things work when i have enough information.

    one thing i believe your misunderstanding is i dont really like water/meth injection that much. as i said before, water/meth injection is archaic technology and there are much better ways of doing things than using water/meth injection.

    pure methanol injection seems a little better. but if your that hardcore into it why not build an engine that runs on methanol as the sole fuel?

    if you want cooler intake air use nitrous. heres an idea, build an engine that runs on methanol and has a big shot of nitrous. wait, they make those... and their awsome. how about for a street car you use a wet shot of nitrous with methanol as the fuel source (gasoline runs the engine na). wait, they make those... and their awsome.

    my point is there are infinit possibilities of things that you can do to an engine to make it perform the way you want it. i was simply comenting on his specific subject of water/meth injection.

    im not trying to be combative, but dont come in here and say i dont know what im talking about and i just read sh*t and spout bs, especialy when your refering to a different subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drewhenderson13 View Post
    >>>> water/meth injection is archaic technology and there are much better ways of doing things than using water/meth injection.<<<<<<
    I agree 100%


    Quote Originally Posted by drewhenderson13 View Post
    im not trying to be combative, but dont come in here and say i dont know what im talking about and i just read sh*t and spout bs
    I understand! and I Never said you didn't know what your talking about! I just asked a simple question...But you have to see where i'm coming from too! I see alot of people that just read something and they havn't installed it or tuned for it themselves and they act like they know everything there is to know about it. Sure anyone can buy a kit and install it but it don't mean it's going to work! it still needs to be tuned and that! is the BIG part.. without it tuned good, tuned safe, installed good, installed safe it isn't worth a flip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot w. View Post
    I agree 100%


    I understand! and I Never said you didn't know what your talking about! I just asked a simple question...But you have to see where i'm coming from too! I see alot of people that just read something and they havn't installed it or tuned for it themselves and they act like they know everything there is to know about it. Sure anyone can buy a kit and install it but it don't mean it's going to work! it still needs to be tuned and that! is the BIG part.. without it tuned good, tuned safe, installed good, installed safe it isn't worth a flip.
    then were cool

    but when someone asks "do you know what your talking about?" it almost always means "i think you dont"

    i take offense to that.

    now can i tune it?... hell no, and i never said that i could. thats what owning it does for you. but i do know how it all works, more so than many people.

    anyway, im going to bed

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    wow thats quite the thread that I missed out on... well I'm bringing it back from the dead because I have a few questions.

    Here we go, I don't fully intend on putting methanol injection in however I am going to look into it and see if its worth doing.

    The car WILL be at this point when/if I decide to do meth. injection.

    heads (11.0 to 1 CR)
    cam 228/230
    Ported FAST92
    Full intake
    Full Exhaust w e-cutout

    now the goal is to have a higher compression ratio then stock and a moderate heads/cam setup with the goal of having comfortable and good street manners while obtaining excellent power.

    After all that is done this spring I may be looking for a just a little bit more... not enough to justify FI or Nitrous I have my own inhibititions about N20 so... methanol injection...

    you can get a meth/water kit off ws6store for 400$, can you buy that kit and run pure methanol rather then a water/meth mix? If you're able to do that with that kit what do you use for pure meth I heard something about windshield washer fluid but isn't that a diluted mix?

    with a 11:1 CR I'm hoping to hit 450rwhp can I atleast expect to gain 20rwhp from advancing the timing on my tune with meth injection?

    Also if I do meth. injection I intend on making fail safes as well as installing a wideband and AFR gauge, and fuel pressure gauge...

    what do you guys think... I have no problems with running meth on my car I kind of like the idea actually I've seen one guy run it on a SS Cobalt and make good gains and it looks factory.

    Well this post is long enough for now...

    please give me your inputs...

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    add more duration @ .050" or lower the static cr, your present combo will create excessive cylinder pressure, with 11:1 you should be running around 245 @ .050"..
    deck the block and run a tight quench (.040", no more than .060")..

    meth raises the octane level of the fuel mixture which slows down the flame-front in the chamber, the slower burning fuel is less likely to detonate and life is good, on the downside the slower burning mixture makes less power...always use the lowest octane fuel the engine will run correctly on..if it pings then pull some initial, raise the octane or hit the meth.
    the key is to build a quench motor that don't need high-test or meth to run the timing.

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    well I understand that but I'm quite confident on the build I've chosen as I'm not the first to run it. So the build is what the build is... I'm not going to change it...

    so as far as the build goes... I assume there is no harm running meth... I'm not afraid of the 400$ investment I'm spending upwards of that on certain components of this build for no more then a 10rwhp so it doesn't bother me.

    questions remain, can you run pure methanol injection in the kit that is "designed" for water/meth injection? What is a moderate and reasonable expectation for a meth injection kit as far as hp gained from advancing the timing? Where do you find pure methanol I assume windshield washer fluid isn't pure methanol...

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