Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 68

Water/Methanol injection ?

This is a discussion on Water/Methanol injection ? within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; What can I expect from Water/Methanol injection on a naturally aspirated engine? Power gains? How hard is it for a ...

  1. #1
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Water/Methanol injection ?

    What can I expect from Water/Methanol injection on a naturally aspirated engine? Power gains? How hard is it for a shop to tune for it?
    How would I turn it on and off?

    On my LS1 F-Body, I know I would have to relocate the battery to the trunk for the 5 gallon tank to fit. What else am I looking at?

    Anybody ever use it?

  2. #2
    Member cailey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    832

    Silver
    1998 Pontiac Trans Am

    Well.....the main reason to use it would be to suppress detonation. Methanol acts as an octane booster, if you will, to bring the inlet air temps down and quench the air charge. This allows you to start playing with your timing. It wont necessarily increase your HP by itself....it's what you can do when you're using it if that makes sense......I plumbed my system into my windshield reservoir.....no need to relocate the battery.....and that way I can use the sensor in the tank to let me know when I'm low.....just a thought...it can be activated by a pressure switch.....you'll need a pump of course.....Snow Performance makes a kit for our cars.....check them out....

    Basically anyone can tune the car if they have the right equipment.....but make sure it's someone that know's LSX motors and tuned a few.........

  3. #3
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Quote Originally Posted by cailey37 View Post
    Well.....the main reason to use it would be to suppress detonation. Methanol acts as an octane booster, if you will, to bring the inlet air temps down and quench the air charge. This allows you to start playing with your timing. It wont necessarily increase your HP by itself....it's what you can do when you're using it if that makes sense......I plumbed my system into my windshield reservoir.....no need to relocate the battery.....and that way I can use the sensor in the tank to let me know when I'm low.....just a thought...it can be activated by a pressure switch.....you'll need a pump of course.....Snow Performance makes a kit for our cars.....check them out....

    Basically anyone can tune the car if they have the right equipment.....but make sure it's someone that know's LSX motors and tuned a few.........
    What kind of power is it gonna give me? My engine is stock

  4. #4
    Member cailey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    832

    Silver
    1998 Pontiac Trans Am

    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    What kind of power is it gonna give me? My engine is stock
    Ok......it's not going to "give you Horsepower".........you will be able to play with your timing some and that will give you some....it just depends......that's were a good tuner will come into play......they can play witht the timing of your car and may.....I say may.....get 30hp more for you.....it just depends......it depends on when your car starts to get detonation........but you dont want to go to the limit because you always factor in getting bad gas or elevation changes....air temps...things like that.....I know some companies claim you'll get 100hp out of using their methanol kits but that is really misleading......always....always....always....go on the side of safety for your motor......especially if it's a daily driver.......

    I use methanol to cool the intake charge of my car.....it's basically an intercooler but chemical......and it works great......we had the car on they dyno and it took the inlet air temps from 150 at idle to 94 with full boost....

    what exactly are you wanting from it? I mean are you wanting something like nitrous?????

  5. #5
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Quote Originally Posted by cailey37 View Post
    what exactly are you wanting from it? I mean are you wanting something like nitrous?????
    I went to get my car tuned and the shop, who is very well know for tuning
    LS1's recommended that I put a methanol injection system in my car.
    I am not adding nitrous.

  6. #6
    Member cailey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    832

    Silver
    1998 Pontiac Trans Am

    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    I went to get my car tuned and the shop, who is very well know for tuning
    LS1's recommended that I put a methanol injection system in my car.
    I am not adding nitrous.
    Not trying to say the guy if full of ca ca but I would love to hear his rational behind that......I could understand if you had a turbo or supercharger but I just dont see the big benefit on a naturally aspirated motor......like I said earlier.....the ONLY reason you'd want to run a methanol injection system is to suppress detonation.......it's like an octane boost for the motor....some claim that it takes 93 octane and makes it more like 110.........do you have a high compression motor?????? If so, then maybe he'd want to play with your timing and get more out of it.....that is the only thing I can think of.......while I guess I'm not the tuning expert I have built a few LSX cars and would hate to have some guy have you buying things you just dont need right now.....but like I said....I'd just like to hear your tuner's rational behind him recommending it.......

  7. #7
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Yeah, that seems rediculous to try and sell me the kit if I am only gonna get 30 horsepower at the most. If it was 50, then yeah, I would buy the kit!

  8. #8
    Senior Member Blown Interceptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    1,849

    Black
    1999 Camaro SS

    I was able to run 13lbs of boost and and 26* of WOT timing on my 2000 supercharged Camaro. All with a stock bottom end, using denatured alcohol. I think it's more FI and not NA...

  9. #9
    Member cailey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    832

    Silver
    1998 Pontiac Trans Am

    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    Yeah, that seems rediculous to try and sell me the kit if I am only gonna get 30 horsepower at the most. If it was 50, then yeah, I would buy the kit!
    do a google search for Snow Performance....they have a pretty informative site that can explain the benefits of methanol injection.........that way you can decide if it's good for you or not.......I just really hate people trying to get others to buy crap they really dont need.....not saying that you couldn't benefit from it down the road but from the sound of it now I think you'd rather put your money some where else........just my opinion......

  10. #10
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Haven, Connecticut
    Posts
    32

    Yellow
    2004 GTO

    We tuned an LS1 Camaro SS that had an A4.

    Mods were:

    Yank 3200 stall
    Cam (.580 224)
    LTs
    Cat-back
    Underdrive crank pulley

    Car had run a best of 12.98 @ 105

    We added:

    160 tstat
    Drop-in K&N air filter
    Methanol System
    Our tune

    First run out, car went 12.3 @ 111 mph.
    Next time out it went 12.0 @ 112 mph.

    29-33 degrees of timing at WOT with no KR.

    Methanol on an NA car works really well when tuned properly and with other mods.

    I don't think it is worth it on a stock LS1, but we haven't actually tested a totally stock LS1 and added meth to it.

    If it does give 30 rwhp, I'd recommend it to everyone.

    Ed


    04 GTO A4 6.6 liter,AFR 225,STS 76mm Turbo,96# Injectors,Innovate XD-16,Methanol,HPTuners,Custom Fuel,etc.

    Best E.T. 10.66 @ 130 mph http://www.mongillomotors.com/1066vid.html


    LSX Tuning with Mustang MD-1100 Eddy Current Dyno & HPTuners in the New Haven, CT. area

  11. #11
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Quote Originally Posted by edgz06 View Post
    We tuned an LS1 Camaro SS that had an A4.

    Mods were:

    Yank 3200 stall
    Cam (.580 224)
    LTs
    Cat-back
    Underdrive crank pulley

    Car had run a best of 12.98 @ 105

    We added:

    160 tstat
    Drop-in K&N air filter
    Methanol System
    Our tune

    First run out, car went 12.3 @ 111 mph.
    Next time out it went 12.0 @ 112 mph.

    29-33 degrees of timing at WOT with no KR.

    Methanol on an NA car works really well when tuned properly and with other mods.

    I don't think it is worth it on a stock LS1, but we haven't actually tested a totally stock LS1 and added meth to it.

    If it does give 30 rwhp, I'd recommend it to everyone.

    Ed
    Well, I will pay you to test it on my car! j/k
    But seriously, am I gonna be able to run it without methanol without having a programmer?

  12. #12
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Haven, Connecticut
    Posts
    32

    Yellow
    2004 GTO

    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    Well, I will pay you to test it on my car! j/k
    But seriously, am I gonna be able to run it without methanol without having a programmer?
    Umm, what's the question?

    Can you install methanol without a programmer?

    Yes, but it won't make any power, it will go slower. The methanol will make the mix to rich and kill power, in addition, a large part of the power comes from increasing the timing and that only happens with a tune.

    For it to work well, you need to install a progressive system and then tune the timing (increase it) and the air/fuel (decrease it) tables to get the full benefit of it.

    You will also need a wide-band to dial in the AFR.

    We sell Coolingmist products and have found them to be better than the SNOW products. The controller is called the Vari-cool controller.

    Ed

  13. #13
    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    doylestown, Pa
    Posts
    6,818

    SILVER
    2004 CTS-V

    Quote Originally Posted by edgz06 View Post
    Umm, what's the question?

    Can you install methanol without a programmer?

    Yes, but it won't make any power, it will go slower. The methanol will make the mix to rich and kill power, in addition, a large part of the power comes from increasing the timing and that only happens with a tune.

    For it to work well, you need to install a progressive system and then tune the timing (increase it) and the air/fuel (decrease it) tables to get the full benefit of it.

    You will also need a wide-band to dial in the AFR.

    We sell Coolingmist products and have found them to be better than the SNOW products. The controller is called the Vari-cool controller.

    Ed
    No, I meant will I have to switch between tunes when I am not using the meth?

  14. #14
    LSX Tuner edgz06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    New Haven, Connecticut
    Posts
    32

    Yellow
    2004 GTO

    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    No, I meant will I have to switch between tunes when I am not using the meth?
    Once the meth is in and the car is tuned for it, there is no reason to stop using it.

    It's like putting headers on, it's now part of your car.

    If you did want to run without it, then yes, you should switch back to a tune that will command more fuel during PE (Power Enrichment) so that your AFR is in the proper range of about 12.8 AFR.

  15. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1

    Black
    1999 Camaro Z28

    Smile

    I have a '99 Camaro with a high compression 383 and the detonation issues have been killing me. We've had to pull timing to run on 93 octane pump gas. With the timing retarded we're putting down about 525rwhp.

    From the research I've been doing a water/meth kit from Snow or someone else seems to be the solution to get the timing and power up to where it needs to be. Would you guys tend to agree this would be a good solution for me?

  16. #16
    Junior Member Websy21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    93

    Metallic Pewter
    2001 Trans Am WS6

    Yes, meth is not a power adder but will in turn do so by enabling you to maximize your power via timing with boost. On lower CR and boost levels it may not become a benifit but when running high CR or boost than it is almost a must. You should build you engine/set-up to meet your goals with octane in mind. Me I have shitty 91 so I built my 408 with 8.5 CR and will run lower boost on the street, when I go to the track to turn it up than I will use my meth. It is my project this winter so I haven't actually expereinced this yet but among many who have done this with great results. Every appliction is different. Another thing meth does it cool down you IAT's significantly which also helps with timing, etc. Especially on those hot days. Intercoolers are another issue, some use meth only for an intercooler but normally race only.

  17. #17
    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seymour, TN
    Age
    50
    Posts
    19

    black
    86' Buick

    When using a Progressive Methanol Kit we alsways ask the customer what boost levels they plan on running at the track and tune the car to that. That way with 93 pump gas and the methanol it allows you to run your car in "Kill Mode" at all times! I personally got tired of going to the track and turning up the boost and having two seperate set up's, Just use the Methanol and tune it for what you plan on running at the track, "set it and forget it!" And your in kill mode at all times. No more getting caught on the street with out your high boost set up...

    I'll never go back to race gas and seperate tunes again!

    Scot W.
    www.injectionx.com

  18. #18
    Owner of InjectionX scot w.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seymour, TN
    Age
    50
    Posts
    19

    black
    86' Buick

    When using a Progressive Methanol Kit we alsways ask the customer what boost levels they plan on running at the track and tune the car to that. That way with 93 pump gas and the methanol it allows you to run your car in "Kill Mode" at all times! I personally got tired of going to the track and turning up the boost and having two seperate set up's, Just use the Methanol and tune it for what you plan on running at the track, "set it and forget it!" And your in kill mode at all times. No more getting caught on the street with out your high boost set up...

    I'll never go back to race gas and seperate tunes again!

    Scot W.
    www.injectionx.com

  19. #19
    Junior Member Websy21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    93

    Metallic Pewter
    2001 Trans Am WS6

    Thats not what I meant, you shouldn't have to change the tune if you spray lightly. I meant to run the max boost and tune to that on pump only and than turn it up with meth for the track. I don't know how you can effectively run over 650rwhp on the street anyways? Morall of story is all setups are differnet, if going fo rmax effort or high CR, meth is a must. Me with the bigger displacement and lower cr I can get away with a lil more boost than the norm on pump gas as a higher cr setup would have. Its all relative but you are right as to set out your goals at the biginning to see what you will actually need. As everyone's needs and wants are different. Me, I don't want kill mode with a street car but reliabilty and not tuing my car with meth just for it to fial and blow up my engine.

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    lonestar state
    Age
    58
    Posts
    93
    Ok, you put Too much static compression in the recipe and
    found it wouldn't run on pump-gas.
    Pulled the timing out to stop the motor from detonating
    and lost gobs of power, i mean a lot......
    Added Meth injection to cool the pistons some more.

    I'm still trying to figure how it helped your situation,
    Replace the heads with larger combustion chamber units.
    Put the timing back into the motor where it belongs.

    Methanol Injection is used to cover up a mistake,
    Too much static compression is a mistake.
    Too much boost pressure is a mistake.
    Don't make mistakes.
    Last edited by Olde Skoole; 11-27-2007 at 09:58 PM.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. EZ EFI Fuel Injection System - Fuel-Injection Interjection
    By Ed Blown Vert in forum Firebird / WS6
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-06-2013, 07:20 PM
  2. Water/Methanol Injection - The 50 Percent Solution
    By Ed Blown Vert in forum Almost Anything Goes
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-28-2009, 10:30 PM
  3. Methanol/water injection systems good or bad
    By Dillard99 in forum Camaro / SS
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-25-2007, 02:54 PM
  4. methanol injection
    By LS1injection in forum Forced Induction
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-22-2007, 04:09 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •