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Twin Turbo-Shootin the bull

This is a discussion on Twin Turbo-Shootin the bull within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; everyone seems to go with the procharger. and i dont think i have seen one Twin Turbo (particularly a Trans ...

  1. #1
    Impounded
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    Twin Turbo-Shootin the bull

    everyone seems to go with the procharger. and i dont think i have seen one Twin Turbo (particularly a Trans Am)
    i was just wondering if anyone was running a twin turbo set up?
    and are there any reasons to go with other options? (i guess TT setups are more expensive)
    i seen videos where twin turbo TAs will run with supras and where they will run great numbers and times too.
    just wondering what your .02 was.
    thanks

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  3. #3
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Red
    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    Track car - turbo
    Street car - supercharger

    IMO

    A turbo set-up is going to be a lot more difficult to install and more expensive.

    They are VERY nice though if you have deep pockets and patience.

  4. #4
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    I will second 35th on that.

    If you are building for extreme performance, a turbo, particularly a twin turbo, will provide more power power at the same boost level, and more importantly better power 'under the curve'. Boost adjustment also makes more a far more customizable setup that can be pushed to the limits at the track (and by extension the street).

    There are certainly TT setups running on the street, but they are more expensive and IMO require more durable and extensive supporting modifications than a comparable ProCharger setup requires. Boost hitting hard and early is good for power, but it's bad for weak links that will endure additional stress when the power comes on.

    Also, you tend to lose the exhaust note of an aftermarket car due to the nature of a turbo setup, which I think takes away from the fun, street aspect of the ProCharger, along with the blower whine and bypass valve.

    A nicely planned ProCharger setup will make plenty of power for the vast majority of people out there, without many compromises. It's easy to get caught up in these forums and start thinking that everyone has an 800rwhp, streetable car, but the fact is they're pretty few and far between in the big scheme of things.

    I think the TT setups require more during the build and future maintenance down the road, and while they will certainly make plenty of power, everyone needs to decide if those power advantages are really worth it or not. I think turbo setups are awesome, by the way, I don't want anyone to misunderstand any of the above.
    Nick

    2002 Trans Am WS6 - 520rwhp
    D1SC @ 10lbs | FLT Level V - SS3600 - ARH 1 3/4" LTs w/ Catted Y-pipe - Corsa - Koni 4/3's - UMI Adj. LCAs and Brackets - UMI 3 Pt. SFC's - UMI PHB - UMI STB - TTM's (17X9, 17X10.5) - M/T ET Streets

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    so im new on this whole forced induction. and this is a hypothetical question. but i would love to get a FI on this thing later on down the road.

    so correct/add on me if im wrong.

    i need a VERY VERY sturdy suspension and lower end.
    Forged internals are a must. along with 9:1 compression (or so?)
    and you want higher gears right? (4.11s?)
    anything else?

  6. #6
    The red dragon bpopham22's Avatar
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    2001 pontiac WS6

    I don't know about the gears,other than getting your rpms up to get into boost quicker. But also with that much power traction has to be a problem. Once again though its personal preference being a track car or a street car.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    With FI you want higher gears, which means a lower gear number. 373 or 342 even, depending on your set-up.

  8. #8
    The red dragon bpopham22's Avatar
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    2001 pontiac WS6

    Yes I read an article a few years ago about a twin turbo ws6 out of Houston I believe it was, he was running 3.08 gears and was pushing 900 to the wheels on pump gas.I bet even with higher gears all that power is hard to keep planted.

  9. #9
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    Turbos tend to like 2.73-3.55 gears, It keeps the motor loaded and in boost. The only reason turbos are more expensive is cause really there are no bolt on kits. I don't have nearly as much in my turbo as a supercharger kit. I did all my own fab work though its not really hard you just have to have the tools. I do like the roots style blower for the street though.

  10. #10
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    Yeah ive just been looking at videos of TT set ups on camaros and t/as and gto and vettes and it just sounds so intemidating with those turbos and blow off valves.
    Just simple speculations...but yea

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    The red dragon bpopham22's Avatar
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    red
    2001 pontiac WS6

    Go YouTube the lingenfelter 1200 HP z06. Car does a standing mile in 25 seconds at 225 mph. When it it passes it sounds like a jet.

  12. #12
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    ^^
    exactly. Its so mean. If i even get the suspension to support this kind of power...id like to go TT

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    Senior Member bluehawk2000's Avatar
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    midnight blue
    2000 trans am

    Don't forget about your drivetrain you need a tranny drive shaft and rear end also don't forget about sub frame connectors!!

  14. #14
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    Yeah. That would deffinantly be a given.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Red
    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    and a clutch and tires and a scatter shield and brakes to stop and lower control arms and a torque arm and....

  16. #16
    Senior Member bluehawk2000's Avatar
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    midnight blue
    2000 trans am

    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    and a clutch and tires and a scatter shield and brakes to stop and lower control arms and a torque arm and....
    Drivers trainning!!!

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    02 35th LE Camaro SS

    Yes, def a driver mod

    I plan on relearning how to drive my car again

  18. #18
    Senior Member bluehawk2000's Avatar
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    midnight blue
    2000 trans am

    Yea It's a totally different beast once you start making these kinds of mods haha!!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehawk2000 View Post
    Yea It's a totally different beast once you start making these kinds of mods haha!!

    Isnt that the point?

  20. #20
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
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    '10 ZR1

    The following is a post from Bob, that is/was @ EPP. He put this together a long time ago, and it is very thorough IMHO:

    Here is something that I put together that might help answer a few questions. Item 15 will answer the ProCharger item requirements. Bob


    Here is a list of items that I recently put together for building up the chassis prior to adding the horsepower. People are always asking the question of whether to go with a head and cam package, or go with a supercharger or turbocharger. There is no way you are to match the power of an ATI ProCharger with a head and cam package unless you use a pretty radical camshaft. Nitrous oxide could be used instead of going the forced induction route, with very good results at a fraction of the cost. A cold air kit would be required if you elect to use nitrous oxide instead of going the forced induction (ATI ProCharger) route. The ATI ProChargers come with a K&N cone filter. With forced induction, such as the ATI ProCharger, the power is always going to be there when you want it, with no nitrous bottles to constantly refill. A turbocharger could be used instead of an ATI ProCharger, but I am not convinced that the turbo kits currently out on the market will stand the test of time. TurboChargers go through extreme heat cycles, which can fracture the turbo housing mounts.
    With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.

    Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.

    1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.

    2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.

    3. Moser 12 bolt - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine.

    4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain.

    5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search on this forum for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.

    At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
    For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.


    6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.

    7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.

    8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.

    9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.

    10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.

    11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.

    12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.

    13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.

    14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Flowtech headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
    Flowtech and Hooker ceramic coated headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The Flowtech headers are priced very competitively with PaceSetter headers, yet they install and fit much better. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers.
    The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.

    For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!

    15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.

    Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob






    Over 500 hp, and will still get great gas mileage!

    Our standard 8 psi system includes:

    ATI ProCharger D-1SC 8 rib supercharger with (new for '05) larger 4.5" twin high-flow intercooler system
    LS1 Edit programming and tuning on our Mustang Chassis Dyno
    Ford SVO 42lb fuel injectors
    Holley/Walbro 340 in tank forced induction fuel pump with in-tank modifications
    Spark plugs for forced induction

    Also Includes ATI Performance Products Harmonic Balancer, which is required for the 8 rib belt assembly
    Last edited by FasstChevys; 02-22-2011 at 01:41 PM.

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