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Twin Turbo or No Twin Turbo

This is a discussion on Twin Turbo or No Twin Turbo within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS I have a stock LS1 making 500rwhp on 8psi. Have about 5K miles on this set-up. ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I have a stock LS1 making 500rwhp on 8psi. Have about 5K miles on this set-up. Also running a meth kit and FMIC. Tuned by FROST on this site and he said it was tuned conservative. Surprisingly the car was pulling upwards of 10psi above 6500RPM on the stock cam. This is when we set the rev limiter back and limited the boost to 8psi being I have a stock bottom end. Only thing I changed were valve springs and added hardened push rods.
    What is the max psi you can run with out meth and did you do some dyno runs at that?

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremecorvette View Post
    What is the max psi you can run with out meth and did you do some dyno runs at that?
    I did not.

    I've always read and seen though that 8psi is the maximum boost level on a stock LS1 with intercoolers. I am not sure without intercoolers. I don't think I've ever seen a set-up without them. Typically what I've seen is people generally use the twin high-flow intercoolers. At least on the Procharger set-up with either the P1SC or the D1SC.

    I added meth as a supplement just to be safe as my car is pretty much a garage queen. That, and every builder and tuner I spoke to recommended using meth with any FI build. At some point I'd like to forge the bottom end and run around 12-15psi so I figured to just add the kit now.

    I'd say I went through about 3 gallons in a year which I don't think is very much being used as a supplement. Not sure what other set-ups use in comparison though.

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    I see, I was just wondering why meth. But it makes since to use it as a safety factor. Like I said I've seen people run 6-7 psi not using it and with meth run a few extra pounds with it. I seen on guy have a set up so that when he changed his boost to 10psi it ran meth and when he went back down to 7psi it turned the meth system off.

    To be honist I've been thinking about adding the meth system to my car to see if I can get a few extra hp out of it or do the GTX3582R upgrades. The new GTX35 support and extra 15lbs/min over the GT35. The GT35 support 600hp and the GTX35 support 770hp. I would think for the $3k cost and dyno time I would get an extra 200rwhp out of a pair of them.

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    Understood. I believe the only reason they tuned it back down from 10psi was because there was some leery feelings about running that high of boost with the stock pistons/connecting rods.

    Generally speaking, I've seen a handful or more people run a smaller pulley to get more boost on stock set-ups and right around the 12psi range is when people start cracking piston #8. That's always the first piston to go from what I've seen on higher boost levels running stock parts.

    When I forge it, I plan on doing the crank/pistons/connecting rods and throwing a more boost friendly cam in. Not sure what route I'll take on the heads and pistons. It would probably be smart to lower compression since I'll be running more boost. This probably won't happen for another few years though so I have time to think about it. I'm still paying off this last build

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    First off, I def would not look at horsepower, I would look at what kind of times you are wanting to put down at the track as it is more than just saying yea my car has 10 billion horsepower. At the same time you have to look at what you are going to be using the car for, if a daily driver then I would not recommend that kind of power unless your rich. Also if you opt to go with an iron block your going to be looking at extra added weight to the car which means it is not going to respond as well in the curvy road sector. I have seen guys build the ls1 with a D1SC procharger on a meth alky injection kit plus spraying it running mid 9's in the quarter. You just have to look at where you want the car to perform the best in, weather it be in auto X or on the strip!!

    Also I know Texas speed has a stock bottom end naturally aspirated car that is running in the 9's in the quarter, apparently the fastest stock bottom end ls1 in the country.

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    To make 800 hp as stated in your post I would go with twin turbos. Here is why. You can make that much power with a single turbo but you will need a high stall speed converter to get the turbo spooling to make the power. And even on an LS motor you will be pushing 20 psi or close to it to make the power. If you do twin turbos you will do it at a lower boost level and the torque converter won't have to have such a high stall speed.

    Aside from turbos, the iron block is advisable at those kinds of hp numbers. In would seriously look at forged pistons and rods no matter what. Ported heads are a good idea as well as good cam at those levels. Bottom line you won't get there on a shock motor and live. You will certainly need injectors to make that much power.

    A methanol injection system is not just a safety net for the motor. It's an octane replacement for 91 octane gas that will detonate and kill a forced induction motor. Whether it's a turbo or blower. You can run much more boost and therefore more air into the motor. That makes more power.

    And as stated the tune on the motor is very important. Hope this helps.

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    So what did you go with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by artistwantab View Post
    I need some advice on a future build.

    I am trying to pick a LS1 that I will modify with a goal of 600-800 horses and everything I read discourages twin turbo's on aluminum LS1's.

    If you guys had a stock LS1 and wanted 600-800 horses what direction would you guys go.

    Also any year better than other for a donor car for the LS1+

    Thanks in advance for the help.
    LS1's love turbos - Not an issue. Hard to beat twins when looking for 800hp and streetable - They are just the perfect match This weekend we dyno'd a 750 rwhp 650 ft/lbs Vette with long tubes, huge camshaft, long tubes, etc at 17lbs of boost . It seemed like a race car on the street. Last month we dyno a similar year Vette with our twin turbo kit that idled darn near stock and had perfect street manners. It made 927 rwhp and 912 ft/lbs at 15lbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I'm pushing 500rwhp on 8psi and I'm guessing my motor is not even sneezing at that kind of power.

    With any FI build, the most important thing is keeping IAT's down (intercooler and methanol injection) and having the tune spot on. There are plenty of people pushing that envelope on both superchargers and turbo's with the LS1 motor.

    Cubic inches isn't really all that important when it comes to FI.

    Small blocks love it and you naturally want a lower compression if you run more boost. Ideally with that kind of power I'd guess you'd want to be about 9.5:1 or so. I could be wrong though.

    Obviously, before you could ever put that much power down, you'd need a fully built car from the ground up...rear end, suspension, drive train, tranny, tires, etc.
    Very well said

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli View Post
    Very well said
    Agree!
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    Sometimes I get lucky and know what I'm talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Sometimes I get lucky and know what I'm talking about
    What I meant was - Everyone gets hung up on big inch motors. All too often guy’s waist money building 427+ cubic inch motors when that money could be better spent on forced induction. A 3.750 stroke crank in the stock bore is a beautiful thing with 12 psi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli View Post
    What I meant was - Everyone gets hung up on big inch motors. All too often guy’s waist money building 427+ cubic inch motors when that money could be better spent on forced induction. A 3.750 stroke crank in the stock bore is a beautiful thing with 12 psi
    Most folks here know by now I'm going to have to agree with this also..

    IMHO, the days of big CID are almost over unless you stay N/A..

    I can put nearly 500hp crank through a stock LQ1 bottom end with 1 0r 2 spools, even more with forged internals, lighter = faster..
    Last edited by Smittro; 02-22-2012 at 07:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Most folks here know by now I'm going to have to agree with this also..

    IMHO, the days of big CID are almost over unless you stay N/A..
    That right there is the key. Most small blocks aren't going to get very close to 700 N/A on pump gas. Jus' sayin

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    One of my favorite projects was a destroked 5.3 LS motor with Magnuson. We made it into a 5.0 and spun it 8500. Sounded like a NASCAR motor at WOT and made 525hp at 7lbs of boost. With the Magnuson it still had plenty of power and torque down low. It was no race car but plenty fast for the customers needs and to this day everytime he leaves we can hear him wind it out a block away with its unique sound

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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    That right there is the key. Most small blocks aren't going to get very close to 700 N/A on pump gas. Jus' sayin


    But what's the cost and driveability difference?

    IMHO cheaper to spool or screw a small block into those numbers on pump gas and meth than to build a big block to do it N/A on pump gas.

    Second, how's that big block gonna idle like @ 700hp N/A?

    Jon is over 500 to the road on a stock cam, procharger, and can run it up to the corner store and leave it run while inside.

    (not that he'd do such a thing)

    Even if he was bored stroked and forced, he'd likely still see stock type driveablity with a cam setup for 700hp FI on his small block. imho

    Something tells me a 700hp N/A big block prolly would be reluctant to stay running without being tended,

    but then again I'm a little old school when I think big blocks.lol
    Last edited by Smittro; 02-23-2012 at 12:19 PM.

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    This is what I think about when I think 700hp big block N/A, listen to the idle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli View Post
    One of my favorite projects was a destroked 5.3 LS motor with Magnuson. We made it into a 5.0 and spun it 8500. Sounded like a NASCAR motor at WOT and made 525hp at 7lbs of boost. With the Magnuson it still had plenty of power and torque down low. It was no race car but plenty fast for the customers needs and to this day everytime he leaves we can hear him wind it out a block away with its unique sound
    That sounds wicked cool!! Anything that spins 8500(and isn't just making noise) is damned cool in my book!
    Last edited by FasstChevys; 02-23-2012 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post


    But what's the cost and driveability difference? Second, how's that big block gonna idle like @ 700hp N/A?
    Fair question. You can get a used 500+ inch Big Chevy for probably 10 G's. I stroked my ZZ502(to a 572) for about 6K, plus the original cost of about 6K at the time. So, 12K total for 700+ ponies, N/A. Idles & drives just like it did when it was a 502. Guys do it all the time. Very driveable. Going FI isn't much cheaper. I'm sure Jon has at least 8K in his set up. I had 8K in my '01 ProCharged WS6....exact same D1SC set up as Jon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    IMHO cheaper to spool or screw a small block into those numbers on pump gas and meth than to build a big block to do it N/A on pump gas.
    It might be a touch cheaper, but not that much to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    :Jon is over 500 to the road on a stock cam, procharger, and can run it up to the corner store and leave it run while inside.

    (not that he'd do such a thing) .
    Been there (see above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Even if he was bored stroked and forced, he'd likely still see stock type driveablity with a cam setup for 700hp FI on his small block. imho

    Something tells me a 700hp N/A big block prolly would be reluctant to stay running without being tended,

    but then again I'm a little old school when I think big blocks.lol
    Maybe so, but it would not be wise to do so with stock internals. When the engine comes out, the costs start to even out. I'm tellin
    ya, a ZZ502 will idle at 800 RPM's all day long...........not that I'd want it to, or pay the gas bill....but, jus' sayin!!
    Last edited by FasstChevys; 02-23-2012 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Fair question. You can get a used 500+ inch Big Chevy for probably 10 G's. I stroked my ZZ502(to a 572) for about 6K, plus the original cost of about 6K at the time. So, 12K total for 700+ ponies, N/A. Idles & drives just like it did when it was a 502. Guys do it all the time. Very driveable. Going FI isn't much cheaper. I'm sure Jon has at least 8K in his set up. I had 8K in my '01 ProCharged WS6....exact same D1SC set up as Jon.



    It might be a touch cheaper, but not that much to be honest.



    Been there (see above)


    Maybe so, but it would not be wise to do so with stock internals. When the engine comes out, the costs start to even out. I'm tellin
    ya, a ZZ502 will idle at 800 RPM's all day long...........not that I'd want it to, or pay the gas bill....but, jus' sayin!!
    I see what you're saying, my knowledge of BBC's kinda peeked with the 454 and a lil with the 502.

    Friend of ours has a twin 502 powered cigarette (yes sir 2 of dem in the same boat), fastest boat on the water @ our end of the county.

    Everytime that thing fires up I start thinking like a criminal..

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