Twin turbo ls1 aluminum block????

**00blacktransam112** · 09-15-2009, 05:23 AM

I have a friend who is going to be building up his camaro pretty soon. As it sits, its an 01 SS that puts 453 rwhp down. he just signed up for the army and is putting his entire enlistment check into it. anothe friend of mine is going to be building it. It's going to be a 427 cu in LS1 stroker motor with the ASP extreme twin turbo kit on it. the goal is to have 1000 rwhp when its done. he talked to ASP and they told him that he could use the aluminum block even with it being bored, stroked, and boosted. I'm a little skeptical about that. I know more about LSx's than he does and i said it was a bad idea to use the aluminum block but he is dead set on it. Am i right or wrong in thinking that the LS1 block will hand grenade itself after a few passes. It's a street car BTW too.

**Zboner** · 09-15-2009, 05:26 AM

he will have to sleeve it.

**00blacktransam112** · 09-15-2009, 05:52 AM

i realize that but will the block hold up to street beatings for a while or is he better off getting an iron block and dealing with the extra 86 lbs and having the peace of mind that he's not guna break the thing. or am i just overreacting on this?

**Zboner** · 09-15-2009, 05:56 AM

personally id go with iron if it was my build

**6.0LiterImportEater** · 09-15-2009, 06:14 AM

Personally I have never seen any real data that proves the iron block superior than the aluminum block. Its a personal preference.

You must remember that yes iron is stronger in terms of tensile strength and hardness than aluminum...

BUT

an iron block cylinder bores are well just the bare block (iron).

Your cylinder bores are what takes the abuse of heat and friction.

NOW on aluminum blocks you don't have bare cylinder bores.....its sleeved with cast iron liners. Up to now with the exception of these new aluminum silicon alloys the use of sleeves is allowed the use of aluminum block engines.

So IMO a cast iron sleeved aluminum block is equivalent to a bare iron block since the cylinder bores are the same material.

For a 427 cid out of an LS1 you will need to use Darton sleeves (costly but is available). I'm not sure what material these Darton sleeves are but guessing since your decreasing the web between cylinders with that bore these sleeves are a stronger material than cast iron. If this is true than at a material property level the sleeved aluminum block should be stronger than the cast iron since the Darton sleeve cylinder bore is a stronger material than the bare cast iron cylinder bore.

Make sense?

Now it is very well known that a LQ9 block is cheap especially compared to sleeving the aluminum block. The LQ9 though is in question for the bore required to produce a 427 cid and anything better WOULD require this block to be sleeved as well. This is the reason why the people that prefer iron blocks go with the LSX bowtie block for the big bock volumes (427, 454, 504, etc..).

If your friend has the block properly tested and sleeved I don't think he will be at any higher risk than if he went with straight iron.

**Deezl SS** · 09-15-2009, 08:47 AM

I thought APS stopped making kits for all domestic's? Also, there turbo's are known for having "issues". Check out the thread on tech. I would hate to see your buddy blow his whole check on this and not get what he wants in the end.

**00blacktransam112** · 09-15-2009, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by 6.0LiterImportEater

Personally I have never seen any real data that proves the iron block superior than the aluminum block. Its a personal preference.

You must remember that yes iron is stronger in terms of tensile strength and hardness than aluminum...

BUT

an iron block cylinder bores are well just the bare block (iron).

Your cylinder bores are what takes the abuse of heat and friction.

NOW on aluminum blocks you don't have bare cylinder bores.....its sleeved with cast iron liners. Up to now with the exception of these new aluminum silicon alloys the use of sleeves is allowed the use of aluminum block engines.

So IMO a cast iron sleeved aluminum block is equivalent to a bare iron block since the cylinder bores are the same material.

For a 427 cid out of an LS1 you will need to use Darton sleeves (costly but is available). I'm not sure what material these Darton sleeves are but guessing since your decreasing the web between cylinders with that bore these sleeves are a stronger material than cast iron. If this is true than at a material property level the sleeved aluminum block should be stronger than the cast iron since the Darton sleeve cylinder bore is a stronger material than the bare cast iron cylinder bore.

Make sense?

Now it is very well known that a LQ9 block is cheap especially compared to sleeving the aluminum block. The LQ9 though is in question for the bore required to produce a 427 cid and anything better WOULD require this block to be sleeved as well. This is the reason why the people that prefer iron blocks go with the LSX bowtie block for the big bock volumes (427, 454, 504, etc..).

If your friend has the block properly tested and sleeved I don't think he will be at any higher risk than if he went with straight iron.

HOLY SHIT. someone did their homework. Thanks guys. i'll let him know

**6.0LiterImportEater** · 09-16-2009, 12:41 PM

Not really homework.....just common sense to me but I am a mechanical engineer!

**GORILLAVETTE** · 10-01-2009, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by 6.0LiterImportEater

Personally I have never seen any real data that proves the iron block superior than the aluminum block. Its a personal preference.

You must remember that yes iron is stronger in terms of tensile strength and hardness than aluminum...

BUT

an iron block cylinder bores are well just the bare block (iron).

Your cylinder bores are what takes the abuse of heat and friction.

NOW on aluminum blocks you don't have bare cylinder bores.....its sleeved with cast iron liners. Up to now with the exception of these new aluminum silicon alloys the use of sleeves is allowed the use of aluminum block engines.

So IMO a cast iron sleeved aluminum block is equivalent to a bare iron block since the cylinder bores are the same material.

For a 427 cid out of an LS1 you will need to use Darton sleeves (costly but is available). I'm not sure what material these Darton sleeves are but guessing since your decreasing the web between cylinders with that bore these sleeves are a stronger material than cast iron. If this is true than at a material property level the sleeved aluminum block should be stronger than the cast iron since the Darton sleeve cylinder bore is a stronger material than the bare cast iron cylinder bore.

Make sense?

Now it is very well known that a LQ9 block is cheap especially compared to sleeving the aluminum block. The LQ9 though is in question for the bore required to produce a 427 cid and anything better WOULD require this block to be sleeved as well. This is the reason why the people that prefer iron blocks go with the LSX bowtie block for the big bock volumes (427, 454, 504, etc..).

If your friend has the block properly tested and sleeved I don't think he will be at any higher risk than if he went with straight iron.

Sorry but I will respectfully disagree with your assumption. If your friend plans to run any high boost (anything over about ten pounds) a sleeved block tends to push water between the sleeve and the cylinder wall or dislodge the sleeve all together. I have seen this happen at least three times on boosted motors.. If he is going for 1000rwhp he needs to run high boost, at least 18 to 20 pounds. I would never do this with a sleeved block. I also would strongly suggest a six bolt head, again to prevent pushing water. I do strongly agree with your suggestion of a LSX Bow Tie iron block which is set up for six bolt heads.

**00blacktransam112** · 10-01-2009, 06:26 AM

Ok. at least someone thinks like me. The project has been sidelined for a few weeks but when it does get underway i will start a thread so that you guys can follow the build. It should be a good one

**GORILLAVETTE** · 10-02-2009, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by 00BlackTranny112

Ok. at least someone thinks like me. The project has been sidelined for a few weeks but when it does get underway i will start a thread so that you guys can follow the build. It should be a good one

Look forward to watching the build!

**AB'sLs1** · 10-03-2009, 08:32 AM

another thing to look out for is the sleeves warping.... i have heard in high reving motor that the cast iron sleeves will warp.... i have heard of this in ls1's red lining at about 10 grand.... so i would deffinitly say that if your buddy plans on reving anywhere above 8 grand to switch over to cast iron.

either way i would say cast iron is the only way to go if your going to spend the cash then make sure it lasts......i personally wouldnt trust running more the 10 Lbs on an aluminum block.

**THEBRAD** · 10-19-2009, 02:54 PM

who has a street car that revs to 10k rpms, let alone 8k?

**bamaz28** · 10-22-2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by THEBRAD

who has a street car that revs to 10k rpms, let alone 8k?

it wasnt a car it was a truck and well into the 9000's, i miss it totalled her after blistering a cobra in the 1/4. i drove it everywhere...

**Packy** · 10-25-2009, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by THEBRAD

who has a street car that revs to 10k rpms, let alone 8k?

I doubt you are going to be revving into those ranges with an LSx street car build...

**Cajun1** · 11-16-2009, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by 00BlackTranny112

I have a friend who is going to be building up his camaro pretty soon. As it sits, its an 01 SS that puts 453 rwhp down. he just signed up for the army and is putting his entire enlistment check into it. anothe friend of mine is going to be building it. It's going to be a 427 cu in LS1 stroker motor with the ASP extreme twin turbo kit on it. the goal is to have 1000 rwhp when its done. he talked to ASP and they told him that he could use the aluminum block even with it being bored, stroked, and boosted. I'm a little skeptical about that. I know more about LSx's than he does and i said it was a bad idea to use the aluminum block but he is dead set on it. Am i right or wrong in thinking that the LS1 block will hand grenade itself after a few passes. It's a street car BTW too.

I have an LS1 block in my C5. Stock displacement, lots of internal goodies including Diamond blower pistons and rings, Dragonslayer crank, Callies rods, ARP studs everywhere. The point of my post is I have been running 15 to 18 lbs of boost for the last 10K miles with no issues. I have found out that if the crankcase is vented properly the issues are small. Just speak to a lot of people concerning this. Even though tuners do not usually build systems they watch them fail on the dyno. Ask several tuners about their experiences with failures and why it happened. You will be surprised with the amount of failures and stories. Ask Jeremy Formato @ 813-495-8778 in Tampa one fo the best.

**kaine806** · 11-21-2009, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by GORILLAVETTE

Sorry but I will respectfully disagree with your assumption. If your friend plans to run any high boost (anything over about ten pounds) a sleeved block tends to push water between the sleeve and the cylinder wall or dislodge the sleeve all together. I have seen this happen at least three times on boosted motors.. If he is going for 1000rwhp he needs to run high boost, at least 18 to 20 pounds. I would never do this with a sleeved block. I also would strongly suggest a six bolt head, again to prevent pushing water. I do strongly agree with your suggestion of a LSX Bow Tie iron block which is set up for six bolt heads.

I would trust Gorillavette's jugdement on it.../\... after all look as his vette.....

**ATraido** · 11-26-2009, 05:00 AM

Part one of a two part article on a Twin Turbo 505 in a 67 GTO.

Really nice article and detail on the build.
They plan on engine dynoing. the car next month

**qwkgto** · 12-14-2009, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by 00blacktransam112

I have a friend who is going to be building up his camaro pretty soon. As it sits, its an 01 SS that puts 453 rwhp down. he just signed up for the army and is putting his entire enlistment check into it. anothe friend of mine is going to be building it. It's going to be a 427 cu in LS1 stroker motor with the ASP extreme twin turbo kit on it. the goal is to have 1000 rwhp when its done. he talked to ASP and they told him that he could use the aluminum block even with it being bored, stroked, and boosted. I'm a little skeptical about that. I know more about LSx's than he does and i said it was a bad idea to use the aluminum block but he is dead set on it. Am i right or wrong in thinking that the LS1 block will hand grenade itself after a few passes. It's a street car BTW too.

I am running a ls2 based 408,tell him he dont need to build a big inch motor,boost is the repacement for displacement,my motor is over 900hp to the rear tires on 20 psi and a street tune with 93 octain.tell him to get a stud girdle.

**Sweacertofara** · 12-29-2009, 02:40 AM

problem with twin charging is that the supercharger have a hard time keeping up when the turbo takes over
i think it was documented that gze supercharger good to spin to 5XXX dont