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speed density or maf tune

This is a discussion on speed density or maf tune within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Frost Well as I said, with a blower you can get by tuning the MAF until it ...

  1. #21
    NASCAR Go Fast, Turn Left ntimid8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Well as I said, with a blower you can get by tuning the MAF until it is maxed and then working the PE table, which fuels at WOT against RPM. Usually if a blower car doesn't max until 5K or so, I will leave it on the MAF. What happens is, up top, instead of leaving it at, say, 11.5:1, I will leave it at 11.2 or so :1 because fueling at WOT past the MAF will change a little with outside temp. If you tuned past the MAF for 11.5:1 in the summer, it would get a bit leaner as the air got cold outside. That is why it would be left at like 11.2:1, to give it a little room. You could make a little more SD, as you can maintain 11.5:1 regardless of temp (since that OS can SEE boost) but it's not going to be like if you had a turbo. Also keep pricing in mind since SD takes longer than a MAF tune. For me personally, with a blower car, it depends on where the MAF maxes as to which approach I take for tuning.

    For turbo over 500rwhp or so, SD is a must for accurate consistent fueling.

    Oh yeah, I run alkycontrol too and recommend it to all of my tuning customers that ask about meth. What a great system!. You can actually use the 2bar MAF that came with your alky kit in place of the factory MAP and rather than buying a new unit for 2bar tuning.
    Yeah, with my old setup we had left the a/f a little fat for some room up top just like you said. Ed is a pretty good tuner. For the new motor with more boost I'm not sure where the rpm is gonna be at but I should be well over the 500rwhp mark. That's why your description of the closed loop sd looks very interesting. Thankfully I bought everything when I got my HPTuners, including the 2/3 bar.

    Also I was under the impression that the LS6 maf can offer a different table in order to deal with the higher volume of air flow from boost? I've never seen this before but have heard it from a couple of different sources. I did get an LS6 maf but never used it.

    Question....Do you ever dig into the VE table? I had a bad tune once and it was found he made VE table changes, once those were put back to stock the car ran good.

    Julio at Alkycontrol is awesome. He explained everything to me about his system and how to set it up. His system is so complete. I'm putting that 2 bar on for sure.

  2. #22
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    The only time I DON'T do VE tuning is on bolt-ons cars. I use the MAF table for part throttle correction. When the MAF is active, the VE is used for transitional fueling since the MAF is a little slow to react to sudden changes. Many or most pro tuners do NOT tune the VE because it takes extra time. They do things like work the injector tables (which are known-good constants) to get trims in line. If you are in SD, all fueling comes directly from the VE. The VE is also used at first start, so it is important for it to be right, especially down low. Even for MAF tuning, if tuning an engine with an aftermarket cam or heads/cam, etc, I tune the VE, then the MAF.

    The limit on the MAF isn't the sensor attached; it's the PCM's hard-coded airflow limit from the MAF. 512 g/sec max.

  3. #23
    NASCAR Go Fast, Turn Left ntimid8r's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff about the VE table. I knew it supported the maf table but didn't know to what extent. The VE table to me has always been "don't mess with it" in my view. But that's why I state, "I'm not a tuner". Actually I don't do any of my own tuning, 'cause I'm not comfortable with everything yet. But I try to understand what Ed teaches me.

    I'm wondering why other people have said the LS6 maf is an advantage for handling larger air flow on an LS1.

    BTW: Thanks for explaining alot of the mystery box. Definitely good stuff.

  4. #24
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntimid8r View Post

    I'm wondering why other people have said the LS6 maf is an advantage for handling larger air flow on an LS1.
    it's physically less of a restriction because it is a larger diameter and has no screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 65ls1 View Post
    Im going to be running a 373 stroker ls1 twin turbo and have conflicting opinions over speed density or maf tunning the car is going to be driven on the street and I wish to achieve 900-110 rwhp 96lb injectors with stock ecu and injector driver for low impedence, 3 bar map
    Ok...I've read thru this thread and I just have to throw my two cents in. With what this guy is wanting I'm surprised that no one has said anything about the stock ecm. I dont care how good a tuner you are with what he's wanting and the limitations of the ECM, you need to step up to an aftermarket system like Big Stuff 3 or the FAST system. The stock computer just can't keep up with the car. Especially when you're talking about turbocharging it. Yes, everyone is right about the MAF...it's useless once you get over like 10lbs of boost....it's just not going to be able to register the airflow. There may be some "expert" tuners on here but there is a huge difference in tuning a normally aspirated car versus forced induction. And I'm not going to go into technical jargon to substantiate that.

    Guess the point is tell the guy right off the bat that with what he is wanting to do there are other factors to think of which basically boil down to costs. You try to tune this car with the stock ECM and you are going to be rolling the dice. We're talking about 1100rwhp here....I know at that level I'd like something that is a little faster and easier to work with. Look into Big Stuff 3...I use it...and John Meaney, the owner/developer of the system, is the end all be all on FI appications and he's always willing to help you.

  6. #26
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I like BS3, and have tuned some high HP cars with it, but the scanner/recorder is archaic at best compared to offerings like EFIL and HPT which are continuously under developement. BS3 does offer CL WOT adjustment via it's own native wideband, very cool. You can tune on good gas, go back and spray a buttload of meth and let it correct at WOT.... if the meth quits, the system corrects for it. BS3 can also run his low Z injectors without a driver, and tunes in real time.

    The 3bar OS from HPT by comparison also gives you real time tuning with your STOCK PCM and has more control for driveability fine-tuning, if the car is a driver. The days of limitation for the factory PCM are mostly passed with this aftermarket OS. It is a totally boost-referenced OS (so is BS3) too. There are many 900+ rwhp setups on stock PCMs running 3 bar OS's and the AEM Versafueler to drive the injectors. The nice part about this approach if you have a vette or F-body is that the stock PCM will control the stock dash, and BS3 cannot. For a swap like the original poster, BS3 is easier since it doesn't need to control the dash.

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    Hey Frost, I read about Slowhawk turning off the maf, tuning it, then turning it back on. Will this help the car run better down low? Or maybe he was just refurring to h/c cars. I'm probably going to get efi live from Waitforme on the other site and he said he would send a 2 bar tune to start with, then I can to work off that. You think this would be a good way to go?

    Oh yeah..anyone got a link for that alkycontrol kit?

  8. #28
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subliminal Hit View Post
    Hey Frost, I read about Slowhawk turning off the maf, tuning it, then turning it back on. Will this help the car run better down low? Or maybe he was just refurring to h/c cars. I'm probably going to get efi live from Waitforme on the other site and he said he would send a 2 bar tune to start with, then I can to work off that. You think this would be a good way to go?

    Oh yeah..anyone got a link for that alkycontrol kit?

    Slowhawk (Don) was talking about the process of tuning in general, either N/A or under the limit of the MAF. VE first, then re-enable the MAF and calibrate that against the VE.

    Waitforme (Jesse) is a seasoned tuner and I'm sure he will get you a file to get started that will have you where you need to be in no time. I will plug HPT again here, as your 2-bar OS with HPT will give you real time tuning for free on the stock PCM. Incredible.

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    sorry for me being dense, but are you saying I would be better off going with hpt instead of efi live? And thanks for responding.

    edit:sorry for the hijack op.
    Last edited by Subliminal Hit; 12-19-2007 at 06:13 PM.

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    Junior Member 65ls1's Avatar
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    frost

    All of your responses are informitable and you definately know what you are talking about.So you would say that I definately have to run a maf and if so which one stock or aftermarket?Also part numbers are helpful.ported or not?Also wideband 02's are there any stock applications and if so what part numbers?I think im going to go with a speartech harness.Sound ok and if so what specifics should I tell them?

  11. #31
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I'm saying that you will not need a MAF. Your tuner may want you to drop it off with one on it, depending on who he is for inital tuning. I don't, but everyone does things a lil different. If you are looking at aftermarket harnesses, Racetronix makes a harness that allows you to plug into your factory injector wiring with the AEM Versafueler to drive those large low inpedance injectors; no more splicing. Pick your tuner carefully. Best of luck.

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    Junior Member 65ls1's Avatar
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    frost

    thank you

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    Keep the Maf

  14. #34
    Junior Member 65ls1's Avatar
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    maf

    I definately will install one however Im not sure which one.Does anyone know anything about the Z06 sensor I had heard to use that paticular one if so part number please.Thanks.

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