Here is a list I compiled together for building an F Body into a very quick car
This is a discussion on Here is a list I compiled together for building an F Body into a very quick car within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Here is a list of items that I recently put together for building up the chassis prior to adding the ...
08-30-2005, 03:18 AM #1
Here is a list I compiled together for building an F Body into a very quick car
Here is a list of items that I recently put together for building up the chassis prior to adding the horsepower. People are always asking the question of whether to go with a head and cam package, or go with a supercharger or turbocharger. There is no way you are to match the power of an ATI ProCharger with a head and cam package unless you use a pretty radical camshaft. Nitrous oxide could be used instead of going the forced induction route, with very good results at a fraction of the cost. A cold air kit would be required if you elect to use nitrous oxide instead of going the forced induction (ATI ProCharger) route. The ATI ProChargers come with a K&N cone filter. With forced induction, such as the ATI ProCharger, the power is always going to be there when you want it, with no nitrous bottles to constantly refill. A turbocharger could be used instead of an ATI ProCharger, but I am not convinced that the turbo kits currently out on the market will stand the test of time. TurboChargers go through extreme heat cycles, which can fracture the turbo housing mounts.
With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.
Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.
1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.
2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.
3. Moser 12 bolt - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine.
4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain.
5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search on this forum for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.
At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.
6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.
7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.
8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.
9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.
10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.
11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.
12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.
13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.
14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Flowtech headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
Flowtech and Hooker ceramic coated headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The Flowtech headers are priced very competitively with PaceSetter headers, yet they install and fit much better. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers.
The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.
For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!
15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.
Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob
08-31-2005, 10:43 PM #2
Bob............you are back! I am sure lots of people will be happy to hear it.
08-31-2005, 10:56 PM #3
Bob I have couple of questions for you........I hope you don't mind.
I would like to build a very high horsepower LS1......either a 99 WS6 or a 1998 Corvette(both six speed coupes).......I want it to run on pump gas, no nitrous, and be a daily driver. My question is reguarding the differences in the drivetrain(does the Corvette have a better six-speed than the WS6? What type of rear end does the vette have? what type of intake/throttle body for the vette?how much better is the exhaust on the vette......are headers and cat back still the way to go with a high horse forged bottom end on the vette? what are the differences in the heads and cam? Is the 1998 vette easier to tune than the 98 F-bodies? is it a better program than the 99 and newer f-bodies? I am pretty familiar with the f-body specs but have no clue about the vettes obviously........I am considering both the procharger and a twin turbo setup for these.......trying to get six or seven hundred rwhp..... thanks for the info if you can help me out. Do you still have the link to the twin turbo vette that you had( I think it was somewhere around seven hundred rwhp) I thought I remembered you having something to do with that car........
Last edited by Liquifire; 09-01-2005 at 12:47 AM.
09-01-2005, 03:28 AM #4Originally Posted by Liquifire
You can't match the handling of the C5 with an F Body, but for all out performance the F Body is a better platform to start with. The transmission on the C5 is the same basic tranny as the F Body, but the output shafts, rear-end, driveshaft assembly and other items can't take a lot of horsepower, and are very expensive to replace. The IRS unit as a hole is a weak link, and it is much simpler to swap a 12 bolt into a F Body.
I added my link back on here to the twin turbo Corvette that we built. It made 790 rwhp on my Mustang Chassis Dyno. If the owner ever gets this car to hook, it will be a very fast car but will never hold up like an F Body would. Bob
09-01-2005, 03:55 AM #5
I thought that you also had an F-body that was pretty high performance(617 rwhp or something close comes to mind) why the drastic power difference between the vette and the F-body..........It seems to me the F-body had a procharger? Is this correct?
09-01-2005, 04:01 AM #6
I am assuming then that it would cost less to get the same results out of the F-body versus the vette?
09-03-2005, 04:59 AM #7Originally Posted by Liquifire
09-03-2005, 05:01 AM #8Originally Posted by Liquifire
09-13-2005, 06:11 PM #9Rhino21149Guest
I've done nearly everything to my 98 Camaro on the list, in roughly the order listed, too. As to power, I think ifr a person is serious they have to get rid of the stock block both for displacement and strength reasons. I went with a 408 from Horsepower Engineering with upgrade dinternals. Then a big head and cam package and then nitrous on top of that. Streetable at about 640 RWHP.
As to the D1SC, I agree it is really good. For the additional few $$$ over the P1 they are worth it: they pump more air, etc. I have one feeding a C5R block 427. One problem I had, though, is a very tight fit requiring a lot of improvisation: I had a very large double-row radiator and oil cooler oput in and the Procharger comflicted with it -- eventually got it straightened out, though, but it was and still is very very tight.
09-13-2005, 09:38 PM #10deception05GuestOriginally Posted by Rhino21149
09-14-2005, 06:41 AM #11IROC-ZTTGuest
Bob, I have a few questions for ya and am in need of some good advice. I'm currently rebuilding a 1985 Camaro, essentially from the ground up. She sat in a field for a while, so we have her stripped down and we're replacing body parts, strengthening her with many of the pieces you listed above, etc. However, my concerns are in the area of powertrain. Having done quite a bit of research, I know how well these cars accept engine and tranny swaps.
My goals are to make as much horsepower as possible with a twin-turbo setup, but still keeping the car fairly streetable (I dont care if my ass end is all over the place on wet pavement... thats half the fun!). What engine + tranny (ie. LS1 & built T56) would you suggest? Who should I go to for the turbo kit? Fuel management? What advice would you give to a bodyman-gone-performance nut?
Thanks. Oh, and I'm in Ontario, Canada. Shipping isn't THAT big of an issue, but it should be taken into consideration.
Last edited by IROC-ZTT; 09-14-2005 at 06:43 AM.
09-14-2005, 07:53 AM #12Rhino21149GuestOriginally Posted by deception05
I have a 427 with really really good heads: Patriot IIIs with custom porting by Justin Engineering, and a custom grid Crowler 427 SC cam, but with only 10.25:1 compression ratio so I can run some reasonable boost.
Problem I have is that I am running an underdrive pulley and this means I have pretty small SC pulley. Procharger initially recommended 4.5 inch pulley.
The engine made 495 normally aspirated (remember, the cam was a SC cam, not optimized), and 465 with the 4.5", then progressively, 490, 515, 540, and now 565-570 at 5 lbs of boost (all with cats and full exhaust) with 4, 3.75, 3.5, and 3.4 inch pulleys. I want to go with higher boost, but the next size to try, going to a 3.25" but that is pretty small and I think I will get some slip. I really need to get rid of the underdrive pulley but I can't find a standard size one that will clear the double roller timing chain I installed. Probably need to have the stock one machined down.
The car runs well: idles smooth, lugs in 4th at 1200 RPM without bucking. Its tuned a b it rich now: I get codes 0172 and 0175 about three times a week, but that is just the tuner being conservative since he knows I will be back again with smaller pulleys soon.
I gets 28.5-29 mpg at a steady 70 mph according to the dashboard computer an averages about 18 around town.
I had the engine built by Charlie Hempfield (One advantage of living in nascarcountry -- he built a Datona 500 winner about 8 years ago) and requested a bottom end good to 800-850 HP. I think I will get to 650 RWHP (about 700-720 flywheel) with a smaller pulley but will leave it at that: the SC is probably consumiung about 100 HP at max revs and that means the crank is turning out about 750-800 HP flywheel, at my limit.
I have talked with people (MTI) about spraying with a Vortech or Procharger. Apparently some people just put in a lite shot - 50 to 75, mostly for intake charge cooling. ((At max 5 lbs boost my pre-intercooler air temp is 265, post is 170 deg. F). But it is so crowded under the hood now, and so comlex, and this is a street car (I have a 98 Camaro with an FE 408 with big nitrous for street/strip) that I'll just leave it.
09-14-2005, 08:22 PM #13deception05Guest
Rhino thanks for the info this is really going to help me in deciding on what I want
09-16-2005, 03:40 AM #14
I would start with the LS2 block, add a Callies stroker crank, Compstar rods, Diamond pistons, Comp camshaft, Fast 90mm intake, Nick Williams 90mm throttle body. Have D&D Performance supply you with a built T56 transmssion.
For the fuel end, check out the '95 Formula in my project car section of my website.
Twin Turbo kit, hmm. You might want to check with Pro Turbo for help. Bob
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