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help with supercharger!

This is a discussion on help with supercharger! within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Finally someone agrees that turbos are better, in my opinon engines with turbos last longer but I guess it us ...

  1. #21
    Finally someone agrees that turbos are better, in my opinon engines with turbos last longer but I guess it us just that, a matter of opinion like rustang vs Camaro Vs Cobra Vs SS vs saleen vs corvette vs Ferarri

  2. #22
    Turbos are better and engines with turbos last longer and are more reliable, at least that is my opinion, but opinions are just opinions like rustang vs Camaro vs cobra vs SS vs saleen vs Corvette vs Ferarri vs lamborgini vs Mclaren

  3. #23

  4. #24
    forgot lambos and Mclaren so posted twice

  5. #25
    Junior Member failsafe306's Avatar
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    Nothing throws your in your seat harder or sounds cooler than twin turbos spooling up at high boost!

  6. #26
    Junior Member topgun1851's Avatar
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    '02 WS6 Procharged 9psi

    Quote Originally Posted by RapidoBandido
    Superchargers produce too much heat! Unless you go intercooled which will reduce that problem. In my opinion turbos are better but more expensive. You probably know this but the colder the air is when it is combusted the more power you will get out of that stroke, when a supercharger spins it produces heat and the heat is disspersed into the incoming air, so by the time the air gets to your engine it can be extremely hot which equals less power per oxygen atom, which defies the point of forcing the air into the engine in the first place( of course you still will get increased performance because there will be more oxygen per stroke, but the power ratio per oxygen atom will be less). like I said before if you get a supercharger with a intercooler you can reduce this problem(avoid air to air intercoolers)I feel that turbos are better !!GO OLDSKOOL!!
    Okay, let me put my aerospace engineering bachelor and masters degree to use here. All fluids (yes, air is a fluid) behaves to the equation:

    P = rho * R * T or Pressure = density * R * temp

    Lets assume we have a turbo and a supercharger at the same location on earth (meaning the same air density and outside temp). R in this equation is a constant. For all sense and purposes, density (rho) remains constant. The only time density can change is when you get into compressiblity factors (supersonic jets). This now simplifies the equation to:

    P = (constant rho)*(constant R)* T

    As you can see, when you turbo/supercharge, P will go up, and to balance the eqaution on both sides, T will go up also. It doesnt matter if it is a turbo or supercharger, T will go up the same amount. A turbo that raises ambient pressure to 10psi will increase T the same amount a 10psi supercharger.

    Now, I think turbos will slightly raise the temperature a little more than supercharges because they run on exhaust (~700-800 deg F) which makes their casing very hot (white glowing sometimes). This heat will dissipate into the air its charging, making it hotter. I never seen my procharger glow white hot before.

    Just my opinion, turbos run hotter.

  7. #27
    Junior Member topgun1851's Avatar
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    '02 WS6 Procharged 9psi

    Quote Originally Posted by rickyhaiber
    also, some more facts that may help out....

    1.you can adjust boost on your turbo with the turn of a dila on your boost controller, no need to change an entire belt for that

    2.you will be able to make more power than a supercharger at a lower boost level

    3.turbo kits (most) come with an intercooler

    4.turbos are a much more efficient form of forced induction....far superior to supercharging

    some bad things about going turbo.....
    1.more extensive installation

    2.sometimes a bit more expensive (but turbos also come with more stuff like fuel pumps, injectors, intercooler, MAF, etc.) depending on what kits your comparing

    superchargers dont even make full boost until you hit redline....with a turbo (if its properly sized for your engine) it should be at full boost anytime from 2500-3000 RPM and up

    turbos also produce more torque if its properly sized

    peak horsepower that all the supercharger guys claim isnt that useful if it doesnt make it until redline....search online and do some research about turbos vs supercharger and look at the dyno graphs of turbo and supercharged cars and see how much more power the turbos make throughout the entire powerband....

    if you want to be satisfied with your money that you invest then go turbo.....it may be expensive, but a supercharger isnt cheap either.....

    sorry for the long post, though!

    Okay, on the issue of turbos hitting full spool at lower RPMs than superchargers. THE BIGGEST robber of horsepower is the compression stroke of the piston. Lets use the example of a 10:1 compression ratio with a charging system putting out 10psi. So, at intake its 10psi, and with the compression ratio of the engine, when the piston as at top dead center the air is at 100psi. Imagine the power needed to push that piston up! This power was created by the other firing pistons, instead of going to the wheels where u want it.

    Now with a turbo at full spool at, lets say 3,000rpm, the other pistons are trying very hard to push eachother to top-dead-center against 100psi. This can be difficult. Its kind of like tyring to accelerate when in a very high gear, possible, but slow.

    Now with a supercharger, full spool is at redline, lets say 6,000rpm. The other pistons are pushing hard for eachothers compression stroke against 100psi. But, since you are at high rpms, its easier for the engine to fight the compression strokes. Its kind of like downshifting and accelerating, much easier for the engine.

    To simplify. If you had two identical cars, one with 10psi turbo, and the other with 10psi supercharger. If they were to race, i strongly believe if the supercharged car kept rpms in the range of 5k to 6k, it would easily win the competition. My opinion though.

  8. #28
    Member tici's Avatar
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    Pv = nRT is fine for both systems, but a supercharger need energy to spin, pretty much. In a turbo setup I think you loose less energy to produce the same amount of boost (less parasitic loss).

    If a turbo setup is well insulated I don't see how the exhaust heat can go to the air charge side: I think temperature is the result of pressure alone, and not from irradiation or contact.

    By the way: which other piston is helping a 1 cylinder scooter engine to turn?

  9. #29
    rickyhaiber
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    topgun- you should really stick to physics and get out of cars b/c no two things are alike.....so are you saying that a Vorturd and a PoorCharger will make EXACTLY the same horsepower on an LS1 just b/c theyre both superchargers? i dont think so...your equations are nice, but they dont apply in this situation...because it takes a lot more power from your motor to just even spin the supercharger....

    did u think that it didnt take any power to spin the pulley for your supercharger? okay and i guess thats why race cars take off all the accesories that have pulleys that rob power from the motor....try to look up how much power it would even take from the motor alone to spin a belt driven blower at 12 psi.....go ahead, you can do it, im sure mr. smarty...search around the internet

    and the heat if fine...but a turbo is DESIGNED TO RUN OFF HEAT....its not the enemy as long as it doesnt get into the intake manifold and into the motor...thats why they sell heat shields, Jet Hot coating for the pipes, etc.

    and look over at Turbomustangs.com/smf ... theres a "LS1, LT1, Chevy" section and look up the camaros and trans ams that are on there.....theyre making more power than all of you supercharged guys with less boost...because (despite your wacky equations that dont apply) turbos are 10 times more efficient.....

    and with the technology today theres practically no lag in a turbo...wastegates are so good now that you will be hitting full boost by 2500 RPM and up until redline.....

    imagine whos going faster at 3000, 4000, 5000 RPMS when the supercharger is only up to 4, 5, 6, or 7 psi while the tubo would be pushing its maximun boost of 10, 12, or whatever max boost was set at...

    and look at the torque thats created by any turbo setup.....atleast from my expierence with an 88mm turbo on my car, i usually ALWAYS end up with 100-125 more torquethan horsepower....superchargers that i have had always produce so much less torque

    and if you want proof...like i said, go visit turbomustangs.com/smf and look into the "LS1, LT1, Chevy" section and youll see that the ones who have their cars running right will beat your car if you have heads, cam, and supercharger!

    think about it, my very 1st turbo kit was with a bone stock 5.slow liter mustang.....and i put a CarTech turbo kit on it with a T61 at 11 psi with methanol injection and i turned the dyno to 489RWHP and 567RWTQ...with stock heads, block, cam, and manifold.....

    and take all you equations and shove them, because if they were true then why would the D1sc be better than a P1SC? or why would a Vortech T trim be better than an S Trim? or why would the turbo be better and more efficient than all of them??? ill be waiting for the answer, so hopefully you can come up with some more loousy equations for that, you jacka$$ !!!

  10. #30
    Junior Member topgun1851's Avatar
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    '02 WS6 Procharged 9psi

    hahaha, what a jokester. looks like you are pretty popular in this forum. probably suck at life too.

    we could get severely detailed with all the properties of air, and car performance, blah, blah. what i offered was my opinion, which was an educated opinion (by the language and attitude of your posts it looks as if my education is far superior to yours). but whatever, thats not the point. the issue of what is better, turbos or superchargers, is completely opinionated with no right answer. for you to state without doubt turbos are more efficient and produce better numbers shows your ignorance and overconfidence.

    the ONLY way to prove this mystery of what is better is to have two identical cars, with the exact same mods, and at the same boost levels get onto a dyno. im not going to waste my time for you and research the net for anything like this, because i already have proof that is good enough for me.

    my grad school friend did the STS turbo kit for his ’02 SS at the same time i did the procharger, also with 9psi. we both are on completely stock internals. before we installed the kits, i dynoed 311rwhp vs his 309rwhp. also, we did not have any fans or ice on the intercoolers. so basically it was turbo vs supercharger, which would produce more heat and power?? it was close, very close. my numbers, 486rwhp vs his 458rwhp, on the same dynojet. At max boost levels, his intake temperatures were 40 deg F higher.

    granted, there are some slight difference with minor mods in the cars, with exhaust setups, etc. but nearly 30hp difference told me superchargers are slightly better, in my educated opinion.

    i know ur going to blow up, and fire right back. but im not going to reply. i already wasted too much of my time on you. u just need to understand there is no right answer. everyone gets wut they want and like. for some that is turbos and others that is superchargers. and i like my procharged LS1. have fun with your ford pos.

    topgun – out!

  11. #31
    Dreaming of an LS1 senior gomez's Avatar
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    o0o psi and boost and turbos and such...this is definatly something i will consider when i get my ws.6. would anybody be so nice(as you all are) and sorta gimme a nut shell of how psi and boost and such(ive seen the gages but didnt know what they are)
    and just how they can give you so much more Hp and such. thanks!!

  12. #32
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senior gomez
    o0o psi and boost and turbos and such...this is definatly something i will consider when i get my ws.6. would anybody be so nice(as you all are) and sorta gimme a nut shell of how psi and boost and such(ive seen the gages but didnt know what they are)
    and just how they can give you so much more Hp and such. thanks!!
    Think of an engine as an air pump. By adding boost (turbo or supercharger), it forces more air through the engine, which will allow you to burn more fuel. When you burn more fuel, you make more horsepower. That's the rough version, but it's close.

  13. #33
    rickyhaiber
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    topgun-then stick to your opinion because your opinion is a misinformed one.

    you tried to tell me how any supercharger or turbo will produce the same power as long as theyre at the same boost...then how do you explain the difference between an S Trim and a T Trim....or how is there a difference between the D1SC and the P1SC...because i think your equations leave a lot of important info out when it comes to this topic....making them useless!

    look at any turbocharged '03 Cobra....how come they can run less boost and create hundreds of RWHP more than they do stock with a supercharger?

    plus, do you want to deal with belt slip on the supercharger? or what if the belt breaks...what are the belts for any PoorCharger, $30, $40, $50 each time?

    ive also heard a lot of stories about how those inefficient PoorChargers seem to leak fluid out of the headunit after some time...thats cool i guess

    and if you plan on putting it on a daily driver, you can simply adjust the boost way down so that you dont tear your motor up unless you decide to race it, and in that case you simply turn a knob to what boost you want....instead of hasseling with changing a pulley every time you want to change your boost

    and like i said, 99% of the time a good turbo set-up will destroy any supercharger combo on the same engine, and even if it didnt end up making better PEAK HP, look at the power under the curve throughout the ENTIRE RPM range...can you imagine whos making more power at 3500 or 4000 RPM when the centrifugal is only making HALF of its peak boost and the turbo has been at full boost for about 1000 RPMs??? (forget your buddies STS kit, it must've been messed up...just look over at turbomustangs.com and see)

    and if your majoring in ANYTHING at ANY university, then im afraid of what the future holds...because you seem pretty damn ignorant to think that those general and basic equations would hold true in a scenario that has many more variables than the equations you typed...do you really think those weak equations would hold true for such different applications of forced induction? or did you type them because you think it sounds smart? b/c theyre not, i could go copy them out of a highschool physics book if i wanted

    fact is that turbos will out perform any supercharger on the same engine if theyre both set up properly and there is no question about what you like better or whatever youll say, if you want to go slower, than yes, you would want a supercharger i guess

  14. #34
    C,mon guys don't get worked up about it (sigh) is anybody paying attention it's all a matter of opinion "opinions are just opinions" why do you guys go so crazy over it Dont worry...... be happy but for the record turbos are better

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