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F-1R Procharger on a 427LSX

This is a discussion on F-1R Procharger on a 427LSX within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; ...

  1. #41
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Pretty much what I was 'sorta' saying.
    Honestly....that motor in a car built right will see 9's without any blower.


    I think what Need4Speed is going for IS overkill. Wants it to be high powered but without the use of a even a medium sized cam. Drive fairly stock (for what will be done) but still have a shit ton behind it.
    I think he is looking to use the 'pick 2 of 3' method and wants to pick reliable and fast.
    Here's a brief list of what i compiled for the F1A build along with the motor... Tell me what you think

    427cid LSX Bowtie Stroker Short Block 9:5:1CR
    Procharger F-1A Supercharger
    ETP C6R 6 bolt LS7 12 Degree Large Bore 255cc
    Thunder Racing Custom Grind 228/228 .565/.575 114LSA
    FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold
    FAST Big Mouth 102mm Throttle Body w/ TPS
    QTP 1 7/8" High Velocity Collector Race
    Lingenfelter 100mm MAF Sensor
    FAST 60 lb/hr High-Impedance Injectors
    Aeromotive Eliminator Series Fuel Pump EFI 1200

    ETC ETC...

    I have a whole build sheet in excel along with blueprints for the fitment of the F1A along with the other goodies...

    Any suggestions on maybe what to change? Something too big something to small? Parts that could be better?

    Any suggestions would be awesome!

    Thanks again!

  2. #42
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    Here's a brief list of what i compiled for the F1A build along with the motor... Tell me what you think

    427cid LSX Bowtie Stroker Short Block 9:5:1CR
    Procharger F-1A Supercharger
    ETP C6R 6 bolt LS7 12 Degree Large Bore 255cc
    Thunder Racing Custom Grind 228/228 .565/.575 114LSA
    FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold
    FAST Big Mouth 102mm Throttle Body w/ TPS
    QTP 1 7/8" High Velocity Collector Race
    Lingenfelter 100mm MAF Sensor
    FAST 60 lb/hr High-Impedance Injectors
    Aeromotive Eliminator Series Fuel Pump EFI 1200

    ETC ETC...

    I have a whole build sheet in excel along with blueprints for the fitment of the F1A along with the other goodies...

    Any suggestions on maybe what to change? Something too big something to small? Parts that could be better?

    Any suggestions would be awesome!

    Thanks again!
    Since ETP combined with mast these are the flow numbers they sent me for those heads i listed

    Flow Data w/4.125" Bore Plate
    Lift Intake Exhaust
    0.100 76 65
    0.200 163 118
    0.300 245 171
    0.400 307 212
    0.500 350 229
    0.600 379 245
    0.650 388 247


    What ya think?

  3. #43
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    - I'm no expert on Cams, but that seems a bit small for a 427, but it may be fine for FI, I don't know.

    - Injectors are too small...I was recommended 80 lb/hr injectors for my 383 LS1 F1A build.

    - You might want to look into a double fuel pump setup (Nasty Performance)...also recommended for my build.

    - Personally, I would ditch the MAF and run Speed Density Tune.

    - Lastly, like everyone else is saying, I think you're going overkill with the 427 and LSX Block. There is a guy on LS1Tech that ran high 8s in a 347 LS1 & F1A setup. I have a feeling you're getting into the not-fun-to-drive-on-the-street zone.

  4. #44
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    - I'm no expert on Cams, but that seems a bit small for a 427, but it may be fine for FI, I don't know.

    - Injectors are too small...I was recommended 80 lb/hr injectors for my 383 LS1 F1A build.

    - You might want to look into a double fuel pump setup (Nasty Performance)...also recommended for my build.

    - Personally, I would ditch the MAF and run Speed Density Tune.

    - Lastly, like everyone else is saying, I think you're going overkill with the 427 and LSX Block. There is a guy on LS1Tech that ran high 8s in a 347 LS1 & F1A setup. I have a feeling you're getting into the not-fun-to-drive-on-the-street zone.
    Yea, you might be right... Was talking to a buddy of mine and he was saying that ppl he knows have run 1200RWHP on the iron LQ9 408 and have fun with it on the street... Maybe i should go with something a bit more reasonable then the 427. The price difference between the 427 and 408 is $2300 which can pay for the heads for it.

    I might have to switch over to the 408 from what everyone is saying on here and rightfully so that's why i asked on here to help with my decision

    The reason for the small cam is anything bigger woudl bleed boost and thats no good from an FI stand point...

    80lb/hr is easily doable, better bigger then forcing gas through an injector that cant handle it.

    Might have to re-do my build sheet and blueprints according to what everyone is saying on here...I appriciate all the info coming my way.. really helps me make the right decision

  5. #45
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    bleed boost?? I have 750-800rwhp stock cube 347" LS1's with D/F-1 blowers that run MUCH larger cams. "boost bleeding" is one of those internet crap piles for the most part as far as cars are concerned. Unless you have an unlimited budget and don't mind getting less than you are paying for or don't mind spending it again to correct the first-time issues, I would get with a build consultant if you are going to be doing this yourself. If a shop is doing it, brings goals and see what they suggest.

  6. #46
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    bleed boost?? I have 750-800rwhp stock cube 347" LS1's with D/F-1 blowers that run MUCH larger cams. "boost bleeding" is one of those internet crap piles for the most part as far as cars are concerned. Unless you have an unlimited budget and don't mind getting less than you are paying for or don't mind spending it again to correct the first-time issues, I would get with a build consultant if you are going to be doing this yourself. If a shop is doing it, brings goals and see what they suggest.
    Thats what some professional guy (To remain nameless) told me if i run too large a cam that it will bleed boost... Honestly never heard it before he told me but he was a reputible guy so i took his word for it...

    Originally i was going to run the same cam i have in the WS6 now 238/242 .595/.610 111.5LSA but he specifically said i would bleed boost because of the lobe separation being too big...

    Good news for me that i can run a larger cam... I am working with a builder who used to be a site sponsor here. They will help me assemble the engine and the guy who told me about bleeding boost is helping me decide on what parts to get. I guess from that comment i should look for someone else to help me pick good parts cuz he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    Thats what some professional guy (To remain nameless) told me if i run too large a cam that it will bleed boost... Honestly never heard it before he told me but he was a reputible guy so i took his word for it...

    Originally i was going to run the same cam i have in the WS6 now 238/242 .595/.610 111.5LSA but he specifically said i would bleed boost because of the lobe separation being too big...

    Good news for me that i can run a larger cam... I am working with a builder who used to be a site sponsor here. They will help me assemble the engine and the guy who told me about bleeding boost is helping me decide on what parts to get. I guess from that comment i should look for someone else to help me pick good parts cuz he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about...
    You can increase the size of the cam (lift and duration and keep the LSA small (117ish). Custom Grinds ftw...

  8. #48
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I'm not saying the cam that you have is ideal at all, I'm just commenting on the boost thing. Yes, the lobe separation would more typically be in the 113-115 deg range but that's not in stone. The centrifugals work best up top; who cares if the cam isn't making big power beneath 3K (it's relative); the blower certainly won't be either.

    If you are already working with someone it's important to trust their judgment; particularly if they have proven results. You don't need a community consensus, you are already paying for a professional opinion. Internet user advice is usually limited to their own car or two or the cars of their friends. That's not a bad thing but it pales next to someone who was worked through hundreds or even thousands of setups.

  9. #49
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I thought high duration camshafts create power by increasing overlap...and overlap is not something you want with FI.

  10. #50
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    I have a feeling you're getting into the not-fun-to-drive-on-the-street zone.
    Not with the cam he is planning on running.

    I see what he is trying to do here. Keep it driving somewhat stock'ish'. Just think it is still overkill.

  11. #51
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    One of the primary reasons why i was considering the 427 LSX was for the craftsmanship of the block, displacement, reliability and 6bolt doesnt hurt neither. I like having the piece of mind that if i beat the shit out of the car the motor will laugh and continue taking the abuse. Also, i don't want to spend all this money on a new block and hit a ceiling at lets just say 850hp.

    While that hp might be great for the time being, i always like having the option to increase the power and still know the car with be perfectly fine with it. I know that all the other parts need to be able to support the increased HP but the motor is the most expensive and if i max out at 850 with FI and the blower and other parts can go more but the engine is at its max then it will suck.

    Now, as far as what everyone else is suggesting, i wouldn't mind the 408 LQ9 at all. From what i've heard it can handle 1200hp if built correctly and be safe and reliable which is perfect in my book. I dont care about saying that "ohhhh i have a 427 in a F-body" it's not about bragging its about being able to make a shit load of power, have the available option to increase if i so desire and knowing that the block can take the punishment.

    With the cam, i originally wanted to use something along the lines of 220/230 .601/.590 115 LSA, but the builder suggested other wise.... Not entirely sure what he was referring to when he said "bleeding boost" but when i talk to him tom ill ask him. I would love nothing more then to have a massive cam (like the one in my CETA now) and have that beautiful whine of the F1A behind it all working in harmony. But i want this done once, and done right. I trust everyones opinions on here as everyone has varying levels of experience and run ins with their owns care that's what makes opinions from LS1.com unique and valuable.

    Driveability on the street can be choppy and shakey like i have it now. My cam on 111LSA and i love it plus there is no surge and i never stall.

    To be in the 9s, with respectible numbers and be able to drive 50miles home with the A/C on and then go on a street cruise the same night is the type of project i have laid before myself. I'm well aware it will take lots of enginuity and planning but im not doing this overnight and as you can see am enjoying all the opinions and suggestions

    thank you again for your suggestions and concerns and PLEASE KEEP THEM COMING!!!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    Good point... Ok so let's say i decide to go with a Gen IV block, what size do you suggest?

    I wanna take all things into consideration.....
    402 LS2 is the most common.

    The only reason I'm going 383 with my F1 build is that I'm spending the big bucks on the blower kit and going "budget" on the engine.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    Not entirely sure what he was referring to when he said "bleeding boost" but when i talk to him tom ill ask him.
    "Bleeding Boost" will always happen, it's the amount of it you can control. If you have a low LSA cam (110-112), you have a huge overlap. This means that there is a lot of time where both valves are open. When going WOT and pushing boost, some the boost goes in the cylinder and right back out through the still open exhaust valve. If you limit the overlap (high LSA) you limit this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    I would love nothing more then to have a massive cam (like the one in my CETA now) and have that beautiful whine of the F1A behind it all working in harmony
    Like I mentioned above, you want a large LSA, which will get rid of the choppy idle, and put the sound closer to stock. Personally, it's going to be very hard for me to give this up, but look on the bright side, you now have a S/C whine in it's place.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I thought high duration camshafts create power by increasing overlap...and overlap is not something you want with FI.
    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    "Bleeding Boost" will always happen, it's the amount of it you can control. If you have a low LSA cam (110-112), you have a huge overlap. This means that there is a lot of time where both valves are open. When going WOT and pushing boost, some the boost goes in the cylinder and right back out through the still open exhaust valve. If you limit the overlap (high LSA) you limit this problem.
    This was my point exactly.

  15. #55
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Wonder how Dan is making a shitton of power with a big cam (240/244 610ish lift and 113 LSA) with the F1A.....

    If this 'boost bleed' were true....it would go for cylinder compression on an N/A motor as well. Or nitrous motors.
    The key isn't the size of the cam or the overlap....it is matching the cam to your set-up.

    Obviously you don't want a low LSA with a blower....why have the cam come on late when the blower comes on early??

  16. #56
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    402 LS2 is the most common.

    The only reason I'm going 383 with my F1 build is that I'm spending the big bucks on the blower kit and going "budget" on the engine.
    Any major difference between the 402 LS2 and the 408 LQ9? Wouldn't an iron block be more reliable and handle more power initially?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    It depends on the set-up.
    The APS kit literally moves nothing on the F-Body, but most other kits move stuff around.

    It is all in location. Not saying the F2 wouldn't fit...but it would require some changes and fab work.
    No kits.......this is all fab work. It's the only way to fly!

  18. #58
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    "Bleeding Boost" will always happen, it's the amount of it you can control. If you have a low LSA cam (110-112), you have a huge overlap. This means that there is a lot of time where both valves are open. When going WOT and pushing boost, some the boost goes in the cylinder and right back out through the still open exhaust valve. If you limit the overlap (high LSA) you limit this problem.
    So would you say the cam i listed 220/230 .601/.590 115 LSA would be sufficient? Mild cam, nothing wild, 115 LSA will give it a bit of lope but nothing extreme and should make good power through the band to compliment the blower...


    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    Like I mentioned above, you want a large LSA, which will get rid of the choppy idle, and put the sound closer to stock. Personally, it's going to be very hard for me to give this up, but look on the bright side, you now have a S/C whine in it's place.
    S/C whine is always a beautiful thing...Nothing like fending off ricers with exhausts only then the howl of a supercharger

  19. #59
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    "Bleeding Boost" will always happen, it's the amount of it you can control. If you have a low LSA cam (110-112), you have a huge overlap. This means that there is a lot of time where both valves are open. When going WOT and pushing boost, some the boost goes in the cylinder and right back out through the still open exhaust valve. If you limit the overlap (high LSA) you limit this problem.



    Like I mentioned above, you want a large LSA, which will get rid of the choppy idle, and put the sound closer to stock. Personally, it's going to be very hard for me to give this up, but look on the bright side, you now have a S/C whine in it's place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Wonder how Dan is making a shitton of power with a big cam (240/244 610ish lift and 113 LSA) with the F1A.....

    If this 'boost bleed' were true....it would go for cylinder compression on an N/A motor as well. Or nitrous motors.
    The key isn't the size of the cam or the overlap....it is matching the cam to your set-up.

    Obviously you don't want a low LSA with a blower....why have the cam come on late when the blower comes on early??
    Since i can easily push 800+ HP out of the F1A i don't really need a massive cam. I still would like a little lope (115LSA maybe) and add extra power throughout the powerband to help compliment the blower. I figure this could easily be accomplished considering the cam i listed is relatively mild in comparison to the one im running now.

  20. #60
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GORILLAVETTE View Post
    No kits.......this is all fab work. It's the only way to fly!

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