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Benefits of twin turbo over single

This is a discussion on Benefits of twin turbo over single within the Forced Induction forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; My setup^^^^ uses thing such as headers and the exhaust the cars already have,so this saves the owner money!or you ...

  1. #61
    Senior Member qwkgto's Avatar
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    My setup^^^^ uses thing such as headers and the exhaust the cars already have,so this saves the owner money!or you can sell the mods you have and start over.either way in my opinion rear mounts are the only way to go on the GTO,there are other kits out there in turbo land APS gen TTR and a a few others but for the price and the times I have ran they dont come close to mine.
    mods: custom built twins, built 408 w/l92 stock GM heads,GM matching intake,drag bags,frame ties,aluminum drive shaft, performabuilt 4l80e,Yank converter,ohios fastest and quickest 04-06 GTO 9.52 at 144mph. 1.50 60ft on stock rear end and shafts/suspension,on drag radials.

  2. #62
    GM made me do it!! IT_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwkgto View Post
    My setup^^^^ uses thing such as headers and the exhaust the cars already have,so this saves the owner money!or you can sell the mods you have and start over.either way in my opinion rear mounts are the only way to go on the GTO,there are other kits out there in turbo land APS gen TTR and a a few others but for the price and the times I have ran they dont come close to mine.
    Click for full size
    nice

  3. #63
    Blown and Stroked TNTramair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwkgto View Post
    thats a bunch of BS,the lil bit of heat I lose ,so to speak is far outreached in cooling by having them back in the rear of the car.yes i might get 1-2 pounds more of boost if they were up front,but when you have a car that already is tight for space and has heat soak problems.I dont has a STS, I made my own and the damn setup works, awesome,I tryed to sell this setup over the winter,no one came up with the cash so its on my new 408,so far 20 psi feels awesome,broke transmission or Id have some new time slips,last year I went 10.6 at 129mph with the stock ls2 and 13psi,yea I would say it works well,got me fastest ls2 in the country...05-06 gto...
    easy dude....not one time did i say that it wouldnt work. i said they experiance a ton of issues (f-body kit)...thats it. i also noticed you have your system wrapped.....once again, there's a reason to do that correct?? i didnt post to start a pissing match between front setups and rears...its not bs, its a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwkgto View Post
    My setup^^^^ uses thing such as headers and the exhaust the cars already have,so this saves the owner money!or you can sell the mods you have and start over.either way in my opinion rear mounts are the only way to go on the GTO,there are other kits out there in turbo land APS gen TTR and a a few others but for the price and the times I have ran they dont come close to mine.
    Click for full size
    and thats your opinion...you're entitled to it. i rather not deal with oil scavanging and wrapping an entire exhaust setup...but thats just my opinion.

    nice run by the way...fucker moves out.

  4. #64
    Senior Member qwkgto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNTramair View Post
    easy dude....not one time did i say that it wouldnt work. i said they experiance a ton of issues (f-body kit)...thats it. i also noticed you have your system wrapped.....once again, there's a reason to do that correct?? i didnt post to start a pissing match between front setups and rears...its not bs, its a fact.


    and thats your opinion...you're entitled to it. i rather not deal with oil scavanging and wrapping an entire exhaust setup...but thats just my opinion.

    nice run by the way...fucker moves out.
    lol,na i wraped it just to keep the heat away from the intercooler tubes going to the front the heat of summer,I ran them the first year bare pipes,from the front(headers to the turbos) is all stainless steel,trust me ,heat get back to them turbos,most important part is setup in sizing them.

  5. #65
    Member cailey37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwkgto View Post
    thats a bunch of BS,the lil bit of heat I lose ,so to speak is far outreached in cooling by having them back in the rear of the car.yes i might get 1-2 pounds more of boost if they were up front,but when you have a car that already is tight for space and has heat soak problems.I dont has a STS, I made my own and the damn setup works, awesome,I tryed to sell this setup over the winter,no one came up with the cash so its on my new 408,so far 20 psi feels awesome,broke transmission or Id have some new time slips,last year I went 10.6 at 129mph with the stock ls2 and 13psi,yea I would say it works well,got me fastest ls2 in the country...05-06 gto...
    I'm afraid at 10.6 you're not near the fastest GTO in the country. Kenny, at Cartek built one for himself that goes 9.89......and that was on a stock displacement motor! Cartek has built 4 for customers that have all gone low 10's.

    Furious Motorspots built one that went 10.06........

    And I do believe that Ohio Boys Racing has one that has gone into the 9's.....low nines at that.

    And all these cars are registered for the street.


    I tried a rear mount setup once but will never use them again. Yes, the turbos will spool slower because of the heat loss they have going back there. Sure, you can make the exhaust housing smaller to "funnel" the gases in there a little quicker but then you start creating backpressure....

    I guess the bottom line is with money, anything is possible....if people like rear mounts...go for it....I wont ever build another one.
    Last edited by cailey37; 05-03-2009 at 02:02 PM.

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    Senior Member qwkgto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cailey37 View Post
    I'm afraid at 10.6 you're not near the fastest GTO in the country. Kenny, at Cartek built one for himself that goes 9.89......and that was on a stock displacement motor! Cartek has built 4 for customers that have all gone low 10's.

    Furious Motorspots built one that went 10.06........

    And I do believe that Ohio Boys Racing has one that has gone into the 9's.....low nines at that.

    And all these cars are registered for the street.


    I tried a rear mount setup once but will never use them again. Yes, the turbos will spool slower because of the heat loss they have going back there. Sure, you can make the exhaust housing smaller to "funnel" the gases in there a little quicker but then you start creating backpressure....

    I guess the bottom line is with money, anything is possible....if people like rear mounts...go for it....I wont ever build another one.
    Mine was on stock ls2

  7. #67
    Junior Member 6806goats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwkgto View Post
    This is why you stager the hot and cold side of the turbos for a ideal no lag setup.
    Ok now I'm confused. Are you saying that the cooler air from the smaller turbo compressor feeds the bigger turbo turbine? Now that I think about it that's seems impossible as the smaller turbo would max out on air flow, overspeed and grenade. I was thinking that the exhaust turbine side of the smaller turbo would feed the input of the turbine to the larger turbo but also has a bypass pipe from the main exhaust pipe that is valve controlled when the boost on the smaller turbo reaches a set limit. Then you have exhaust pressure from the smaller turbine plus bleed off going through the bypass to feed the larger turbo. I've seen a couple of pictures on compound turbos like this on the Duramax but not sure how they work. I think the same thing for the Cummins. All I know is that it reduces EGT's and they're running mad amounts of boost. Not uncommon for Cummins engines to run 75-100 lbs of boost when they're running sled pulls. Amazing how they can get 1500hp and 2000 lb ft of torque out of them inline sixes like that. Good thing is that the more people are learning about the Duramax, the more they're getting out of them also. Pushing a 6500 lb truck down the quarter with hi 9's and low 10's is just pretty cool. There in lies my quandry. I love my GTO and the LS engine but I'm also a diesel head so I enjoy life in both camps. But on the flip side I need to beef up the Goat so I don't get blown into the weeds by someone in their diesel. Hopefully everyone realizes the potential of what is happening with diesel engines. Not all of them are that fast of course but it's like everything else, speed is money how fast do you wanna go. I'm cool with 400 rwhp and 750 rwlb ft of torque (as rated by Banks with their 6 Gun setup, no roller time yet) out of my dually for now. After that level then the trans needs beefed up, and then the rods and head studs are the next to go. It's just a great time for hot roddin' no matter what fuel we burn. But now we don't just have other cars to worry about blowin' us off the road, the pickups are doin the same thing.

    Some of you might not believe that but take a look at some of the diesel pages out there. Casper is a Duramax runnin 10's (50psi) and hit the salt flats at 175 mph. Not bad for a diesel. Just means I need to put a set of twins on my Goat and a lot of cash and tuning. But then I'm not out to race Casper or try to beef my truck up to hit 10's. I'll be happy with 12's from the truck and we'll see where I go with the GTO. Might just go with a 402 kit on the LS2 block and a set of twins or look into your route of a single turbo with the LS2. Cool lookin set up you have there qwkgto and it sounds like it works fine for you. I just got so hung up in the twins mindset and I don't really like the sound of the STS setup I hear in videos. Maybe yours doesn't sound like that.
    Last edited by 6806goats; 05-14-2009 at 09:00 AM.

  8. #68
    Member ericwilloughby's Avatar
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    Wow, you talk a lot soldier. The boost from the compressor on number #1 feeds the compressor inlet on #2. This multiplies boost. Its the only way to get very high pressure out of a device that has no rings or any other way to actually seal/stop air from leaking past the blades.

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    Senior Member qwkgto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6806goats View Post
    Ok now I'm confused. Are you saying that the cooler air from the smaller turbo compressor feeds the bigger turbo turbine? Now that I think about it that's seems impossible as the smaller turbo would max out on air flow, overspeed and grenade. I was thinking that the exhaust turbine side of the smaller turbo would feed the input of the turbine to the larger turbo but also has a bypass pipe from the main exhaust pipe that is valve controlled when the boost on the smaller turbo reaches a set limit. Then you have exhaust pressure from the smaller turbine plus bleed off going through the bypass to feed the larger turbo. I've seen a couple of pictures on compound turbos like this on the Duramax but not sure how they work. I think the same thing for the Cummins. All I know is that it reduces EGT's and they're running mad amounts of boost. Not uncommon for Cummins engines to run 75-100 lbs of boost when they're running sled pulls. Amazing how they can get 1500hp and 2000 lb ft of torque out of them inline sixes like that. Good thing is that the more people are learning about the Duramax, the more they're getting out of them also. Pushing a 6500 lb truck down the quarter with hi 9's and low 10's is just pretty cool. There in lies my quandry. I love my GTO and the LS engine but I'm also a diesel head so I enjoy life in both camps. But on the flip side I need to beef up the Goat so I don't get blown into the weeds by someone in their diesel. Hopefully everyone realizes the potential of what is happening with diesel engines. Not all of them are that fast of course but it's like everything else, speed is money how fast do you wanna go. I'm cool with 400 rwhp and 750 rwlb ft of torque (as rated by Banks with their 6 Gun setup, no roller time yet) out of my dually for now. After that level then the trans needs beefed up, and then the rods and head studs are the next to go. It's just a great time for hot roddin' no matter what fuel we burn. But now we don't just have other cars to worry about blowin' us off the road, the pickups are doin the same thing.

    Some of you might not believe that but take a look at some of the diesel pages out there. Casper is a Duramax runnin 10's (50psi) and hit the salt flats at 175 mph. Not bad for a diesel. Just means I need to put a set of twins on my Goat and a lot of cash and tuning. But then I'm not out to race Casper or try to beef my truck up to hit 10's. I'll be happy with 12's from the truck and we'll see where I go with the GTO. Might just go with a 402 kit on the LS2 block and a set of twins or look into your route of a single turbo with the LS2. Cool lookin set up you have there qwkgto and it sounds like it works fine for you. I just got so hung up in the twins mindset and I don't really like the sound of the STS setup I hear in videos. Maybe yours doesn't sound like that.
    I am running two turbo that are same size, not stagering them,just sized them right for the boost i wanted. mine sounds like this..

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    Junior Member 6806goats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericwilloughby View Post
    Wow, you talk a lot soldier. The boost from the compressor on number #1 feeds the compressor inlet on #2. This multiplies boost. Its the only way to get very high pressure out of a device that has no rings or any other way to actually seal/stop air from leaking past the blades.
    LOL. Ya some of us old retired Navy guys get long winded. No body else to talk about engines here so I just ramble on and on. After being here over 1-1/2 yrs I get bored. All good.

    Ok, I am having a hard time going from T1 compressor output to the T2 compressor input. One, the cooler air doesn't have the heat expansion energy needed to drive the turbine side (which in this case it wouldn't be because it's going into the compressor input). Maybe the valutes on the T2 compressor are specially designed for that application but.... Two, if T1 has 15 psi output then that's all that going to be applied to the compressor side of number 2. If it's already going into the compressor then there isn't multiplication (at least from my point of thinking) to obtain any way to get extra air volume.

    But now going through that mindset I can see where the compressor output of T1 can be applied to the turbine of T2. Running 15 psi out of the one would certainly spool up the turbine of T2. There would be multiplication in that aspect but it too would reach max output of what can be supplied from T1. And maybe that's just the design limits of compounded turbos. I'm certainly no turbo engineer and I'm probably just hell bent on the way I see it. The quest is on for knowledge. I need to know how this works in my head. You all might be explaining it correctly..it just ain't gellin. Bla bla bla
    Last edited by 6806goats; 05-14-2009 at 11:48 PM.

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    Junior Member 6806goats's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=qwkgto;1926906]I am running two turbo that are same size, not stagering them,just sized them right for the boost i wanted. mine sounds like this..

    Hey that sounds pretty cool! Like a pulsed scramjet sound. Guess I better get the house bought and then a lift installed in the shop so I can get to work under there. Well whenever I stop playing here that is. This next vacation is shot doing the move. Maybe the summer of 2010 I can do some tinkering.


    Oh hey I found this for one explanation. Otherwise it's mainly a diesel thing so not a necessary discusion on this site but still always willing to learn. Thanks!

    http://www.lextreme.com/sqtt.html
    Last edited by 6806goats; 05-15-2009 at 03:30 AM.

  12. #72
    Senior Member qwkgto's Avatar
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    I am going to try a new setup the turbos from a diesel truck and they have a progressive setup built in,not sure I can make the electronic work but going to give em a try and they are ball bearing turbos,can be had cheap..ill update when I get er done.my thinking is they last for few hundred thousand miles in a truck should do great on goat.

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    Junior Member 6806goats's Avatar
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    Kewl, yes keep us posted and enjoy the project.


    Oh hey did anyone see the TT Duramax 70 Chevelle for $250,000?
    That's an awesome ride but that just crazy cash. Maybe he's a millionaire and cash means nothing to him. I was thinking the same thing for my 68 GTO but I ain't gonna spend 1/4 of that. If I can't do it for $50k (which is still insane) then forget it. I actually have a larger ride that might hold an engine combo like this and I'll just use what the truck guys are doing with compound TT. Saves a lot of room and cash. Would like to have the 5spd allison but a more reliable approach (if I were at the hp levels the racers are at) is use a Dodge truck trans. It's only a 4 speed but it's allowing the Dmax guys to stay consistantly in the 9's without breaking stuff. Ok, I better stop with the diesel stuff on here. This IS an LS1 site. I just dig GM performance no matter what the fuel source. Now bring on the Volt. LOL
    Last edited by 6806goats; 05-16-2009 at 10:43 PM.

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    Member NaviDyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandkodiak View Post
    Well on using twins as a whole to bein with... how is it better then 1? i can only see it as each turbo only get half the total pressure, so i dont see how its better then running a single turbo... just dont see the mechanics behind it... thought someone could point out what i'm missing
    This is correct. Twins spool slower. People that say otherwise are leaving out a huge variable called size. A smaller turbo responds faster than a bigger turbo. But one will respond faster than two, all else being equal.

    Sequential doesn't exist that I have seen. Toyota used a two way turbo system, that car maganzines insisted on calling sequential. They even misstated that a small one spooled first for response, and the bigger one came on later for max power. Not true at all.

    The twins were the same size. One was driven by all 6 cylinders, then bleed off the second after the first responded. Then both came on line above 4000rpm. This was done because if you try and run two at once, you get half the heat from the engine in each turbine, hurting response.

    A non US engine used a parallel turbo system, until variable cam timing came out, and the twin setup was dumped immediately.

    The benifit to twins is packaging on a V engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zakar View Post
    correct turbo size is important at any pressure level
    Yep. A compressor map is needed to pick the correct turbocharger.

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