m6 vs a4

[NE98LS1]

stock for stock how much is m6 gonna take an a4 both TAs by? (assuming an average driver)

[Bob'sWS6]

A4 should typically win, as it is better at the strip (Usually more consistant). M6's require alot of attention to drive. From a roll, forget about it, an M6 will clean an A4 bad.

[NE98LS1]

A4 should typically win, as it is better at the strip (Usually more consistant). M6's require alot of attention to drive. From a roll, forget about it, an M6 will clean an A4 bad.

really? i figured it would be the exact opposite. i assumed the higher RPM launch would take the auto off the launch, and then the more efficient shifts would be to the autos advantage from there on out.:dunno:

[Bob'sWS6]

really? i figured it would be the exact opposite. i assumed the higher RPM launch would take the auto off the launch, and then the more efficient shifts would be to the autos advantage from there on out.:dunno:
I raced my buddies LS6 cammed 02 SS camaro, which was an A4, with my car before the cam, and I murdered his car badly from a roll. At the strip was a different story, as he could cut consistant 2.1 sec. 60' times, to my best on street tires of 2.2 :( Of course he lost after I put a cam in, had it tuned, and slapped on some BFG DR's. If you plan on running the car at the strip often, and A4 is your best bet, especially with a stall converter. I can shift better then most anybody I know, though not launch well, but you can't make up for a hole shot advantage. I've read of some guys running 3200 stall converters and pulling 1.7 sec. 60' times, so i'd say it's safe to say that they will have a hole shot advantage, unless you are an exceptional driver, which we know everyone is online, just not at the track :p

[oneBADDz]

Wrong, M6 is faster unless the driver has virtually no abilities. Standards power loss through the drivetrain is only 17 or 18% as opposed to an automatic which loses 23-24%. Bob you said it yourself you can't get off the line, shifting is easy and anyone can do it, the most important thing is learning to get off the line. When I first got my M6 I had to play catch up just like you say, but now I've had it for almost 5 years and without serious mods an auto can't dream of beating me off the line and they damn sure won't catch me.

[Bob'sWS6]

Wrong, M6 is faster unless the driver has virtually no abilities. Standards power loss through the drivetrain is only 17 or 18% as opposed to an automatic which loses 23-24%. Bob you said it yourself you can't get off the line, shifting is easy and anyone can do it, the most important thing is learning to get off the line. When I first got my M6 I had to play catch up just like you say, but now I've had it for almost 5 years and without serious mods an auto can't dream of beating me off the line and they damn sure won't catch me.

Could've fooled me. Of course with gears you can get them outta the hole, but on stock gears. You're also talking to newbie as far as track times. I see countless dudes on the internet talk jibberish about how great they are driving wise, and how they can pull great times outta the hole. Funny cause when I challenge and beat them they all have the same thing in common ~excuses~

Shifting ain't easy. Not everyone can do the 2nd to 3rd gear shift perfectly.

[oneBADDz]

Haha, I feel ya on the 2-3 I used to have so much trouble with that one. It took me a lot longer to get the 2-3 than it did to learn to get off the line. Most guys talk about how great they are in their 6-speed and I wanna laugh when I ride with em. The sad fact is that the average M6 driver is below what should be average before they can talk crap, yet they all think they're the best. My opinion is that if they can't pull off the 2-3 every time they don't deserve to claim any skill whatsoever.

[x-40oz-x]

A4 should typically win, as it is better at the strip (Usually more consistant). M6's require alot of attention to drive. From a roll, forget about it, an M6 will clean an A4 bad.

:iagree:That's exacty how it is.

[~redlinels1~]

Wrong, M6 is faster unless the driver has virtually no abilities. Standards power loss through the drivetrain is only 17 or 18% as opposed to an automatic which loses 23-24%. Bob you said it yourself you can't get off the line, shifting is easy and anyone can do it, the most important thing is learning to get off the line. When I first got my M6 I had to play catch up just like you say, but now I've had it for almost 5 years and without serious mods an auto can't dream of beating me off the line and they damn sure won't catch me.
Interesting...That means I would only dyno (along with many other a4s') around 250-60rwhp. We all know ls1s typically dyno around 300 in stock form. The lowest Ive ever seen was 28x...highest ive seen was 33x.

While you're 100% correct auto's lose more power, hence why m6's tend to trap higher, but it doesnt mean us a4 guys dont make it.

[oneBADDz]

US auto guys, come on now I have a 99 A4 and a 97 M6, I love em both. I just try to tell it as far as the facts go and leave any allegiances at home. I don't know how a typical stock A4 runs personally, mine came with 3.23s, but I love it and it has nothing short of impressed me so far. According to the numbers, M6s should dyno less than they do too

[~redlinels1~]

I was merely stating an auto doesn't lose 23-24% (In the case of ls1's/4l60e's). I even agreed with you when you said an auto will lose more power.

No worries, I'm not trying to start an argument. I simply posted that for the unfamiliar ls1 enthusiast. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was trying bash on you.

[oneBADDz]

I didn't take it that way, you misinterpreted my reply as a misinterpretation of yours, lol

[~redlinels1~]

Its too easy to confuse the tone of someone's voice on the net. Stupid internet.:toetap:

[Street Lethal]

I raced my buddies LS6 cammed 02 SS camaro, which was an A4, with my car before the cam, and I murdered his car badly from a roll.

I'm assuming that you're buddy was not running a stall speed converter during that particular race. It would have been a completely different story, up to a certain mph, otherwise. ;)

[Flobeast385]

I am not a trained and certified expert transmission person but if my knowledge serves me right i believe the 4L60E usually looses about 16% and the T56 usually looses about 10-11%. That is why a lot of stock LS1's dyno between 280-290 A4 and between 290-300 M6, then some dyno over 300. It all depends on how your holding your tougue i guess.

[Bob'sWS6]

I'm assuming that you're buddy was not running a stall speed converter during that particular race. It would have been a completely different story, up to a certain mph, otherwise. ;)

You are correct. He, unfortunately, couldn't put in a stall converter, and was riddled with rearend problems (He went through 2 of them - actually more like 3 if you really think about it). He ended up trading his SS in for a 05 GTO. Stalled A4's are deadly. Even Emit Smith would have trouble keeping up with a 3200 stalled car. Of course that is just my opinion though.

[sleeperstyle]

STOCK for stock im giving it to the m6. modified (properly) the auto will be faster - stalled with traction that is.

[oneBADDz]

Yep yep, not too many people agree with us though. Hard to believe no one agrees considering it's true.

[hammertime]

My buddy has an ' 01 SS, nearly identical to mine, except for his A4 vs. my M6. Both cars have lids and cat-back exhausts, nothing more. Results at the track:

A4 got me by .1 at the 60 foot (2.1 vs. 2.2)
M6 matched him by 660'

and at the end of the 1/4
M6 had him by .2 (13.50 vs. 13.30) and 2 mph (105 vs. 107).

All supports the arguments:

1) an auto is (slightly) quicker from a dead stop
2) a manual has less power lost (compare MPH)
3) a well driven manual will (generaly) beat an auto in a drag race

[NE98LS1]

i'm gonna have to settle this myself i guess this summer, there is a kid in town with a m6 ws6 w/ loudmouth exhaust and nothing else. i'm hoping to beat him this summer with a lid, headers, y-pipe, exhaust, and some drag radials, we'll have to see!

[oneBADDz]

WAIT WAIT WAIT. . .you wanna mod and beat him. . you dirty cheater you that doesn't settle this :nono:
BUT, you should still do it :drivin:

[lee1rbc]

I feel hp has little to nothing to do with the results. I beleive it has to do almost purely with gear ratio. (example)

If you take two LS1s, an A4 and M6 and lets say for argument they both have 290rwhp (my A4 had 294 stock.) And the A4 has a 3.42 rear and the M6 has a 3.42 rear.
First gear the M6 has a 2.66:1 multiplied by 3.42= 9.09 total ratio.
First gear the A4 has a 3.06:1 multiplied by 3.42= 10.46 total ratio.
***The auto is in the lead****
Second gear the M6 has a 1.78:1 multiplied by 3.42= 6.08 total ratio.
Second gear the A4 has a 1.63:1 multiplied by 3.42= 5.57 total ratio.
***All momentum is lost ****
Third gear the M6 has a 1.30:1 multiplied by 3.42=4.46 total ratio.
Third gear the A4 has a 1:1 multiplied by 3.42=3.42 total ratio.
***The m6 is pulling hard now going as much as 4 miles an hour faster, closing, closing, and.......**** You can fill in the rest.

While m6s due have a shift disadvantage the A4s downfall is 1st to 2nd. When you go from 3.06:1 to 1.63:1 at 6000rpms you drop to 3,196 rpms. At that rpm my car stock put out 170hp 295ftlbs. While an M6 going from 2.66 to 1.78 at 6000rpms drops to 4,015 rpms, at that rpm my car stock put out 235 rwhp 310ftlbs.

[lee1rbc]

Also for you M6 guys to think about. You may put out more power at the dyno but that is in 4th gear. At the drag strip you will be in third across the finish line and in 3rd you are putting out about 20 less hp.

[hammertime]

Also for you M6 guys to think about. You may put out more power at the dyno but that is in 4th gear. At the drag strip you will be in third across the finish line and in 3rd you are putting out about 20 less hp.

My mph through the traps (107) means I have to pull 4th gear, or I will hit the limiter in third. That means I pretty much clear the traps at about 4800 in 4th gear (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.42=4786)

An A4, which we all know sucks up a bit more power than an M6, should hit 6000 rpm in 2nd about 87 mph, when it shifts to 3rd (drive). At that point, the revs drop back down below 3700 rpm (calculated, tq converter slippage and slow tachs probably won't show this). From there, it has to accelerate back up to 4500 rpm (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.23=4520), just the peak TQ, not HP, to match what an M6 can do much easier because of the spacing of our ratios.

Yes, the 3-4 shift at the lights is a slight disadvantage in an M6 car, but I think the benefits of the closer gear spacing outweigh that minor setback. Shifted 3 times from 6000 rpm, our revs fall to 4015, 4382 & 4615.

An auto has to recover two shifts from 3196 & 3680, with less available HP.

[lee1rbc]

My mph through the traps (107) means I have to pull 4th gear, or I will hit the limiter in third. That means I pretty much clear the traps at about 4800 in 4th gear (107*1056/25.7/3.1416*3.42=4786)


Ouch!!!! I have only owned A4 f-bodies and did not realize that.

I agree totally that the spacing of gears in an A4 is a disadvantage, but I think with the launch advantage an A4 has along with what you have revealed about the third shift for an M6, it explains why a stock A4 majority of the time beats an M6 at the drag.

[hammertime]

When I get HP tuners this spring, I'm going to try raising the rev limit just enough to carry me through the traps in 3rd. IMHO it doesn't feel like the car loses anything at the shift. 3rd to 4th is the range where most M6 cars really seems to shine.

[lee1rbc]

It is true a third to fourth shift can be done the fastest. This January I am looking at switching from 3.42s to 3.73sfor my A4. IMO I think 3.73s for an M6 would be a big boost! Quicker 60ft and you would be doing around 5500rpms across the finish in 4th.

[hammertime]

Actually, looks like 5500 with 3.73's should be 112, a little fast. For an M6, 4.10's give an even better launch, and still keep the car in the powerband through the top of 4th gear.

[tnthub]

After racing points for seven years, finishing second (for the season) three times, and winning twice (for the season), with AVERAGE drivers, the A4 will win every time. The AVERAGE driver simply does not know how to launch or shift.

Just go to the track on a street night and watch all the folks who think they are the next Ronnie Sox at the starting line and listen to the shifts downtrack you you will see/hear what I mean.

Now on paper, especially with the 3.42 gears as opposed to the 3.23's, the
M6 should win. The difference is the AVERAGE driver as specified in the first post.

Please note my first season win was with a M6 car in 1999... It was also the last time a person with an M6 car won the championship at my local track and the first time it had been won by a stick in many years.

[oneBADDz]

But are the autos stalled, with slicks etc. This never started out as a drag setup question, it was a stock for stock question and people that wanted to prove autos are better took it to track stories with stalls and all that.

[hammertime]

tnthub is right about the "average driver". We've all seen this scenario:

Kid spends a ton of money on go-fast parts for his car. Word of mouth, etc spread around how fast that car is. Fact is, the driver doesn't know how to launch on street tires without winding it up and dumping the clutch (hey, it sounds fast), probably misses a shift every third run, and probably can't keep a consistant shift point to save his life. Lucky for him, he's never raced anybody who was a better driver than him or had as much mod money.

Well, racer kid pulls up to your car at the light and throws you a rev. You never know what you're up against in a street race, so you (on your game) bring the revs up just a bit so you can walk it out of the hole, while racer kids does his best clutch drop ever from 4000 rpm. As he sits and spins, you walk out on him by a couple cars and quickly pull second to open the gap even further. Racer kid now realizes he's losing ground, so he qiuckly shifts to second while still spinning. Now he finally gets traction @ about 2500 rpms in second, as you continue to pull away.

Being the "average driver" he probably gave up 3/4 of a second on that run.

So... for the record, A4 wins with an "average driver". Two good drivers in similar cars, one A4 and one M6, the M6 should walk away from it.

[lee1rbc]

OK! (This is from an A4 guy!) Stock to stock the M6 wins in the 1/4.

We know there is a bigger learning curve for the M6 and three shifts compared to two by the auto in the 1/4.

And we know the from all the M6 guys you put out more HP to the wheels.

The bottom line to me is that going from first to second in an A4 is why it looses. When I shift into second I drop to 3100rpms. To get the same result in a M6 just dont use 2nd gear and go from 1st to 3rd (2900rpms.)

[Hurley711]

M6=MORE FUN TO DRIVE!!!!:drivin: :drivin:

[Capster78]

I dont know why we are comparing stock for stock cars. How many completly stock LS1's do we have here. Anyone not using the advantage of a high stall converter in an A4 is a moron. Almost everyone I know with an A4 that runs at the track runs a stall converter. This is why when you look at just about ever message boards top dog list you will find maybe 1 or 2 M6's in the top 10 but all the rest are A4's. I own an M6 just because I wanted somthing different. That and the offer was to good to pass up. A 98 WS6 completly stock with less than 50k miles is hard to turn away from. Otherwise id be in an Auto right now.

A4 wins!

[EVL LS1]

stock for stock i would say a m6 will beat an a4 depending on the driver.

my last car was a m6 and was converted to an a4 but also 3600 converter, trans cooler, well pretty much everything you can do to a fbody without a forced induction b/c it was mainly a strip car. but stock for stock i'd say m6 would win... few upgrades on an a4 and it'll stomp the m6

[JS02]

I race a stock 97 SS camaro M6. The car is tough to launch consistently on street tires. Drag radials make a ton of difference. I have beat all the similar autos that I have run and some have beat me. I am always running down anyone i lose to. After a few runs I don't see the shifting is a real problem but there is always potential for error. Consistency is the key. The reason the autos win a lot is they are much easier to drive. They are easier to launch and easier to shift. You modify an M6 like an auto and it will still be competitive. It can never be as consistent over a season. But on a one time race don't count out the M6.


97SSM6

[tnthub]

I race a stock 97 SS camaro M6. The car is tough to launch consistently on street tires. Drag radials make a ton of difference. I have beat all the similar autos that I have run and some have beat me. I am always running down anyone i lose to. After a few runs I don't see the shifting is a real problem but there is always potential for error. Consistency is the key. The reason the autos win a lot is they are much easier to drive. They are easier to launch and easier to shift. You modify an M6 like an auto and it will still be competitive. It can never be as consistent over a season. But on a one time race don't count out the M6.


97SSM6

Actually, in 1999 I went to 14 finals in 22 events with an M6, winning 10 of them.... ;) Don't say "never"... I have yet to be as consistent with the automatic.

[sonnyred]

Love my m6, shifting makes the day.
So much fun going through those gears,gives me a thrill.

[cjg454ss]

My buddy has an ' 01 SS, nearly identical to mine, except for his A4 vs. my M6. Both cars have lids and cat-back exhausts, nothing more. Results at the track:

A4 got me by .1 at the 60 foot (2.1 vs. 2.2)
M6 matched him by 660'

and at the end of the 1/4
M6 had him by .2 (13.50 vs. 13.30) and 2 mph (105 vs. 107).

All supports the arguments:

1) an auto is (slightly) quicker from a dead stop
2) a manual has less power lost (compare MPH)
3) a well driven manual will (generaly) beat an auto in a drag race


Whast was your 1/8th mile time and mph?

[toneloc60]

I beat an A4 Formula with my M6 by a couple feet. I had a decent launch, but nothing great. Both of the cars were stock.

[turtle]

first off hello everyone! i don't own an f-body i'm i broke college/tech school what ever kid right now (only 4 1/2 months left:burnout: ). but the biggest problem i see poeple (and i used to have) is shifting waaay to hard putting waay to much stress on the drive train. quick shifts don't have to be harder then hell, there all about timing. as soon as you start pushing the clutch done start grabbing the next gear. the only time the clutch needs to be fully depressed is when your sliding into the next gear. sorry if you all already know this, but if not hope it helps some.:drivin:

[lee1rbc]

These post show that it really doesn't matter. A4 or M6 at the drag strip are basically even cars, adv A4 at the start adv M6 at the finish. If you love to shift and really want to earn your 1/4 mile times, get the M6. If you don't want to shift all the time, and want garanteed track #s get the A4. I have an A4 and after my first dyno 291hp I turned a 13.38 1/4 on my very first pass with the car.

But to be honest I love to shift.:drivin:

[Street Lethal]

If you don't want to shift all the time, and want garanteed track #s get the A4.

Absolutely. Automatic's dominate "bracket" racing, and are much more consistent.