Some insight into the 3.4L OHV Motor...

[Black34v6]

Hi there. My name is Russell and I have been here for a while now, posting here and there when I feel that I have information to contribute. I have owned a 3.4L Chevy Camaro since 1996 and have been on a "quest for more power" since I bought it. It's peppy enough from the get go with a manual transmission but the automatic is lacking a little bit. Even with the manual, it still has issues putting out enough power to push the massive 3250lbs that is the car itself. When you add speakers or anything else this becomes a serious hinderance to the car in terms of performance.

I have seen posts regarding the 3.4L engine, and I have seen both facts and fiction on this motor thrown around in an attempt to sway people one way or the other. Thats not what I'm trying to accomplish here. Here is my honest opinion about the 3.4L OHV (204ci) RWD engine that comes in the 1993-1995 F-body (Camaro/Firebird). Most of you will be like "oh great whatever". Those of you that know that I have been here and most often won't post in a thread unless I have something important to voice on the matter will stop and read this. And a few of you will be genuinely curious to know what it is I'm trying to convey. Pull up something to drink and some popcorn, this promises to be a long thread.
--
I have done my share of research on this engine. I even contacted GM and asked them for any information they had on the car. They promptly sent me the GM Rebuild Kit for the 1994 Chevrolet Camaro. It didn't cost me a thing and this little packet included every bit of information, original brochures from 1994, a full detailed listing of all options and factory information on every part of the engine, car, chassis, etc.

It was here that I began, studying and calculating and realizing the first thing about the motor. GM Lied. It wasn't a big lie. The motor is advertised at 207 Cubic Inches, but using valid formulas for calculating CID I came up short at only 204. I rechecked several times and came to the conclusion that GM rounded up the engine size because in reality, the "3.4L" engine is really only 3.35 Liters. Now .05 Liters isnt a huge deal..but when you start with so little, every bit counts.

Armed with this information I began signing up to different boards and clubs with the hopes of finding people who had begun to modify the car and make it work better. I came across a lot of owners who were frustrated because they hadn't found anything created by the aftermarket and had given up and advised me to do the same. My Camaro, is honestly my first car. It's the first car I ever purchased and still runs strong to this day. I didn't let anyone's dismay sway me from my goal of making my car work better for me, and not go out and try to win any awards for the most horsepower or torque or anything like that. When I discovered RKSport and their aftermarket products for the 3.4L, my hopes perked up because I realized that if I saved up enough money I could make my car work better. I began to research different engine shops in the area and stumbled across Norris Racing Tech (NRT) with their 3500 package which promised to make the engine a 3.5 Liter and give you the best performance you could get. But at 3000.00 for the engine package + shipping/handling I wrote that off.

Now I have to digress a little because I realize I skipped a very important point. Most 3.4L owners try too hard. You think that you can take your 3.4L V6 and run out and make it faster than any car on the road. That’s not going to happen. There will always be, whether you own a 3.4L v6 - a 3.8L v6 - a LT1 - LS1 – Vette – Viper – Porsche – Ferrari, a car faster than yours. The thing I realized that if I built the car for me, if I did things I wanted and questioned the conventional wisdom of “that won’t work” I would stumble across the magical mod that would give me a massive boost in the right direction. I stayed on these boards for years, watching people come on and ask, “what’s the best intake, what’s the best exhaust...” and all those things. I watched people rise and get incredible gains and saw people I knew push the limits of the engine and develop supercharger and turbocharger kits for the 3.4L, as well as take and add nitrous to it. There were a couple of “loch ness” stories about a mythical 3.4L out there running 9’s in the ¼ mile, but that person never signed up to this board or any others that I have visited, so that person remains a mystery as to whether or not they really exist.

Getting back to my topic – When I realized that I would have to work harder and think more because the things that people were doing weren’t really accomplishing much, I turned to the actual engine design and I looked at several options. I then realized, in 1999, that Pontiac’s Grand Am GT was making 175hp/205tq from a 3.4L OHV FWD motor. I did research into this engine and found that GM had worked a different path on this motor and it was better than the 3.4 RWD. I did more research into engine design and found that runner lengths help determine how much power and torque the engine gets. I looked at the plenum and runner design on the “3400” engine as well as the 3.4 RWD and realized that the RWD runners were jokes. At only 2” long and without any type of airflow acceleration present, they looked like all they served was a means to get the air from the Y shaped plenum, which once I saw a cross section – laughed at, to the cylinders. That was when I decided then and there that the plenum and air intake system was the 3.4L’s weak point. GM had spent money into making the 3.4 into a “Race style” motor. At 60 degrees the Angle of the V shape is natural. EXACTLY replicating the letter V, the angle between cylinders is 60*. The crankshaft in a six cylinder v-type engine has three throws of 120 degrees. With this combination, it makes the engine perfectly internally balanced. No bad vibrations, hence the lack of balance shaft that the 90 degree 3.8 or 3800 series II engine needs to employ to keep the motor from rubbing things the wrong way.

With that in mind, I kept looking into what I could do to increase the natural power of the engine. And I realized that the FWD heads and intake manifold were direct bolt-on parts. The holes all lined up, and they were aluminum which would shave weight off of the engine. Combined with their increased flow (I had no idea how much at the time) they would add a lot of power to an engine that was struggling. So I did more research and found that the iron heads that came with the RWD engine had been used since the original 2.8L engine came out. No changes had been made by GM. Not till they tried to use the 3.4L as a viable engine for the FWD cars did GM even consider making the 3.4L into a “performance” engine. Because of that the 3.4L has become the laughing stock of the F-body world. Many people have tried to make this engine perform better and succeeded, and many more have failed. Simply because they aren’t thinking before they throw parts at the motor. Most people think, “I can get an exhaust or intake and it’ll make the car work great!” This isn’t always the case. Most often it requires planning to increase the airflow of the engine to efficiently use such parts. Why? Because the 3.4L is anemic to begin with – GM thought that they could simply increase the bore and stroke of the engine and throw a “performance cam” into it and it would work fine. This isn’t the case because the plenum and air intake and exhaust systems are so poorly designed that it suffocates the motor without anyone giving it a second thought. While everyone is putting bigger throttle bodies and porting and polishing heads, they are neglecting the most important idea – “you engine only flows as well as the worst bottleneck.” With that in mind, ponder this thought: I asked James Montigny for his flowbench data from Norris Racing Tech on his heads. And then I asked a good friend of mine who specializes in the FWD 60 degree motor for a stock flowbench of the “3100” heads I had pulled from a 1996 3.1L engine and put on my car.

The results shocked me. The stock heads from a 1996 FWD 3.1L engine flowed as good as the heads that were bolted to Tiago’s car (many of you know him as the one who developed a turbocharger for the 3.4L and pushed it to the edge). Tiago had gotten his heads from James Montigny previously and James had the NRT engine package. I went to NRT’s site to learn that the full engine package came with the 900.00 option full port/polish and valve job. You can digest that for a minute before carrying on. GM had managed to work the heads on the FWD engines so perfectly that they flowed as well as taking a set of the iron heads and paying someone to R&D a perfect portjob on them. 900.00. Using the aluminum heads means you have 900.00 to use elsewhere.

[Black34v6]

The first bottleneck is the plenum. While it looks pretty decent, being that the outer size is 3 inches wide by 2.5 inches tall (or somewhere around there – I forget) where the inside is really only like 1.5 – 1.75 inches wide x one inch tall! The plenum has an incredibly thick construction (why I have no idea, its not like you are boosting the motor from the factory) and it makes for very little space for the air to travel inside. Then on top of that the airflow has to split, make two 45 degree turns in order to get to one more 45 degree turn down into the engine. This equates to a lot of bad sharp angles that the airflow has to navigate – effectively slowing it down. The fact that the runners are super short makes for more problems being that there is no way the engine is capable of any top end power, hence the problem with the engine “dying” at 4500 rpm. Ask any 3.4L owner and they will tell you that the engine seems to top out around 4500 rpm. While most people are ok with this, the tachometer shows that the engine has a rev potential of 5500 rpm and a redline of 7k. This is due to the forged steel connecting rods in the engine that can take more abuse than most. The other thing GM didn’t think of – fuel supply. While 16lb injectors come stock on the 2.8-3.4L engine, they are only capable of supplying the engine with enough fuel for a max of 160 hp. (sound familiar?) After you go past 160 hp, the injectors begin to become less and less efficient, costing the driver more in terms of gas mileage and not really working to their full potential. Putting larger injectors helps a good deal.

All this said, it seems to be that the 3.4L engine is a stout powerplant with untapped potential. I proved this when I bolted the aluminum heads to the block itself. Using a stock 3.4L RWD engine block I mated the Gen III aluminum heads and 3100 intake (1996 model year) along with the fuel rails and larger injectors, the stock 3400 throttle body (50mm, just like the RWD stock tb) and adding RKSport headers (due to the fact that nothing else fit that would work in the RWD engine bay, pacesetter headers would work just as well) I realized a gain in the form of 27RWHP and 30RWTQ. (thats from 140rwhp -> 167rwhp and 183rwtq -> 203 rwtq). Once I took the cutout plate off to open the exhaust fully, it gave me another 3 horsepower and 3 torque (both rearwheel) taking me to 170RWHP and 207RWTQ. That’s a 30 RWHP gain and 24 RWTQ gain. Factor in 15% drivetrain loss and that comes to 200 horsepower at the engine. Now when I started, stock engine save for the 3” catback exhaust and K&N FIPK – I had dynoed at 140RWHP and 183RWTQ – that’s 164 HP and 215 TQ at the crank. Just updating the heads and intake from the restrictive version that GM put on there in 1993-1995 to the ones they were currently using in 1996 gave me an increase of 36 hp and 30 tq (170rw=>200c / 207rw=>245c) over what came from the factory. Then I decided to upgrade to the “3400” parts. I made sure I got a set of heads used on the 1999+ Grand Am GT, which featured bigger valves and roller rocker arms built in, as well as larger runners and ports on the plenum as well as an increased plenum size. I still haven’t dynoed the current setup that I’m running, but it’s enough that to date I have beaten a 1996 Convertible Z28 that was going all out to catch up to me and couldn’t until I decided to let off the gas a little. A 3.4L with parts from GM’s factory shelves, complete with casting flaws – keeping the car from being caught by a stock 1996 Z28. To me that’s a major achievement. I can get the owner of the Z28 to come on here and back me up if you need proof, I’m sure he would help me out. He’s one of the members of my car club.

I guess the point of all this is that I’m tired of people giving up on this engine. Its got a lot of potential but it is a challenge. You can’t just slap parts on it like you can with the V8. Even the 3.8 is a challenge but the 3.4 has so many design flaws that it comes across as a failure when it simply needs to be “woken up”. I’m tired of hearing that making the 3.4L perform is impossible – it isn’t. If it was then neither myself or Tiago would have gotten any results from our testing and working so hard. It is a challenge though. And it’s not an easy one at that. Lots of time and effort have to be put into it. So if you think you are up to the challenge of making something cool and custom, then stay with the 3.4 and realize your own personalized car at the end. If you want an easy way out, sell your car and buy a V8. I really don’t care either way. But sooner or later everyone will realize that the 3.4 isn’t as bad as they think. If GM had put a little more thought into the 3.4L like they did with the 3800 Series II – then the 3.4 would have been rated in the top 10 engines of all time. 200 hp is achievable in “stock” form. I’ve done it. Can you?

[dreaded_hope]

Very impressive write up!

[12secondv6]

Good lord...... lots of reading :)

[kaos2700]

WOW.... i just got a comaro,i love it to death,but i noticed it really didnt move around 4500 like u said at first i thought it was cus it was running too lean but now that ive read this i know what the problem is and how to solve it. i will take ur advice and just stick with the 3.4L. also i have a automatic trans and i was wondering would it be wise to get it swapped out for a man. any advice would be good thx

[PaganEgyptian]

You are definately a Gentleman and a scholar for posting this. Thank You. -Tim

[bbfirebird]

awesome post!

[PaganEgyptian]

I just noticed, look at kaos2700 and my avatars. Kinda neat posted next to each other...... BTW, I have friends trying to contact you Black34v6. -Tim

[Black34v6]

yea i know -- workin on communicating with him ;)

and as i said to him, if anyone has trouble getting in touch with me, it's only because im so busy and haven't had time to check the boards. feel free to come to wcfb's board and say "whassup" and "why are you ignoring me??" lol. ill respond as soon as i can.

sorry for that tho :) hope i havent upset anyone.

-R

[95birdman]

Didnt upset me, i just wanted to let you know that there were some ppl excited about your research, glad to see u got my message tho..

-James

[junkpolisher]

russel i work on the same engine people talk down upon the fact that im upgrading a 3.4. before i read yer forum i had put rk headers on, and put the k&n set up on, but i still felt there wasn't any air getting to the combustion chambers, id really appreciate if you were able to tell me what vehicles you took the cylinder heads off of and the intake off of, what are you refering to when saying Gen 3 heads, and i have a broken down 97 chevy malibu with the 3.1 L engine, will that due?

[Black34v6]

3.1 is where i started. got all my parts from a 1996 Grand Am GT first (3100) stuff and that got me from 140 / 185 RW to 170 / 207 RW. just from changing to the 3100 stuff. the 3400 stuff is even better...

i've since added a cam, and with a bad tune (10:1 A/F ratio) the car is at 185 rwhp / 212 rwtq. im hoping to push that number higher, but as of right now im on par with a 5.0L V8 thats in my club...very cool tidings :)

Let me know how it works out.

-R

[derrinx]

If GM had put a little more thought into the 3.4L like they did with the 3800 Series II – then the 3.4 would have been rated in the top 10 engines of all time. 200 hp is achievable in “stock” form. I’ve done it. Can you?


I hope I dont come off as sounding ignorant by saying this, but I am in no way an expert on engines and I just dont understand how you can say that. I never understood why american v6's were always so underpowered as compared to certain Japanese counterparts. The 3.5L v6 in a G35 and 350Z produce 300hp and around 284 tq, the 3.2L v6 in an 04 acura TL produces 270hp and 250tq, and the 3.0L v6 in an 06 accord makes 244hp and around 220tq...and all these engines are single cam (not sure about the nissan 3.5)
All these engines are a lot newer granted, and technology has improved, but japanese engines have always been producing more power than comparable american v6's. I know tuning, timing etc is all different, but why would american car manufacturers insist on producing engine that aren't comparable to other manufacturers instead of copying their technology and looking at ways to improve it? And i know american engines are tuned more for torque etc, but doesnt it make american cars seem inferior to japanese cars when honda squeezed out 170 hp and like 120 tq from the b16 dohc 1.6L inline four in the early 90's, which is more hp from LESS THAN HALF of the diplacement (yes, i know a lot less torque). How could you consider a stock 3.4L v6 making 200 hp a top ten engine?
Personally, i prefer american cars any day, but is it any wonder why ford stock is at 6 dollars a share and american car makers are loosing ground to the japanese every day? In the end i think it comes down to hp/liter which is the most important peice of information you can know about an engine. 325/5.7(LS1) = 57hp/liter...i mean come on is that the best americans can do? It becuase of stupid things liek what you described in your post that american engines jsut are not up to par with the rest of the world. We need new thinking in detroit or else soon enough we wont have any american cars left to idolize.

[Black34v6]

I hope I dont come off as sounding ignorant by saying this, but I am in no way an expert on engines and I just dont understand how you can say that. I never understood why american v6's were always so underpowered as compared to certain Japanese counterparts. The 3.5L v6 in a G35 and 350Z produce 300hp and around 284 tq, the 3.2L v6 in an 04 acura TL produces 270hp and 250tq, and the 3.0L v6 in an 06 accord makes 244hp and around 220tq...and all these engines are single cam (not sure about the nissan 3.5)
All these engines are a lot newer granted, and technology has improved, but japanese engines have always been producing more power than comparable american v6's. I know tuning, timing etc is all different, but why would american car manufacturers insist on producing engine that aren't comparable to other manufacturers instead of copying their technology and looking at ways to improve it? And i know american engines are tuned more for torque etc, but doesnt it make american cars seem inferior to japanese cars when honda squeezed out 170 hp and like 120 tq from the b16 dohc 1.6L inline four in the early 90's, which is more hp from LESS THAN HALF of the diplacement (yes, i know a lot less torque). How could you consider a stock 3.4L v6 making 200 hp a top ten engine?
Personally, i prefer american cars any day, but is it any wonder why ford stock is at 6 dollars a share and american car makers are loosing ground to the japanese every day? In the end i think it comes down to hp/liter which is the most important peice of information you can know about an engine. 325/5.7(LS1) = 57hp/liter...i mean come on is that the best americans can do? It becuase of stupid things liek what you described in your post that american engines jsut are not up to par with the rest of the world. We need new thinking in detroit or else soon enough we wont have any american cars left to idolize.


do you own a 3.8L v6? or a LT1/LS1 - either way i dont really care. the 3.4L engine is a better design than the 3.8L engine - and half of the engines out there today. save for the LSx family..those are nicely done too. the 3.4L engine, the 2.8 and 3.1 as well as the ENTIRE FAMILY that GM is currently rethinking, have a very good design in terms of how they are built, but needed a little more thought.

Comparing Import engines to Domestic is apples to oranges. "not to sound rude", but if you dont like american production values, do something about it or stfu.

[silverz28camaro]

i really enjoyed your book you wrote up there, lol

it would be nice to know what you run in the quarter, if you beat a stock 96 convert. z then you shoud be in the 14's right?

i have a 96 corsica with the 3.1 and it still runs great but i never drive it, mayby i will get a 93-95 3.4 , dod what you did to the motor and strip it down to make it as light as possible and use it as a sleeper car, cause like you said no one has faith in the 3.4 but i do (after i read your post)

[silverz28camaro]

oh and have you changer gear ratio?

[silverz28camaro]

oh and black34 do you know if the z34 lumina is also a 3.4 liter, i do know that it has high compression and runs pretty good, my buddy has one and i may take a peak at it to see what the intake plenum looks like

[nikos95]

Heard a recent rumor at least of a 3.4 top end swap and a bit higher compression with a copper head gasket to hold it, N/A drop down 239 rear wheel in a '94 Camaro M5.

[Black34v6]

i really enjoyed your book you wrote up there, lol

it would be nice to know what you run in the quarter, if you beat a stock 96 convert. z then you shoud be in the 14's right?

i have a 96 corsica with the 3.1 and it still runs great but i never drive it, mayby i will get a 93-95 3.4 , dod what you did to the motor and strip it down to make it as light as possible and use it as a sleeper car, cause like you said no one has faith in the 3.4 but i do (after i read your post)

I wish I could say I have run 14's in the 1/4 -- unfortunately I am not a drag racer and therefore I am not at all good at driving on the track. I need a lot more practice. The best to date is a 16 flat @ 86 mph. (i have seen 3.8's run 15.8 @ 89-90 mph tho, so i think my trap speed is a little low)

I have to apologise for my late reply -- I have been a little late in answering because I have had a lot of "drama" (crap) going on in my life..

I'll try to answer quicker from now on.

I have changed the rear gearing, but only because I got an entire LS1 Rear end (for the rear disc option) - which gave me 3.42 gearing. When I managed to keep the Z28 off of me, that was with 3.23 gearing and an Auburn Posi unit.

and yes, the lumina Z34 is a "3.4" of sorts, but its a 3400 TDC - for Twin Dual Cam - its a DOHC motor based on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 engine and its a completely different animal than the regular OHV line...

[Black34v6]

Heard a recent rumor at least of a 3.4 top end swap and a bit higher compression with a copper head gasket to hold it, N/A drop down 239 rear wheel in a '94 Camaro M5.

interesting.

where @ ?

[Black34v6]

Hey mods -- since this post is somewhat informative, think i could get a sticky?

[RED-95-3.4]

Hello Ladies And Gentlemen. I Am A New Owner Of A You Guessed It. I Am New Here. I Have A Lot Of Plans For My Ride And I Hope That We Can All Work Together To Make Our Dreams Ride Like We Want. Like Many Others, I'm Sure, I Didnt Know What I Was Getting Myself Into When I Bought This Thing. I Absolutely Love It Though. So, I Just Want To Say That I'm Proud To Be A Part Of Something We All Have In Common. Oh And You Sound Like You Truly Are The 3.4 Guru. It's A Beautiful Piece Of Literature.

[RED-95-3.4]

What Is A Sticky?

[koolchriscamaro]

Hey there Russel............i really enjoyed reading your thread and made me think twice about keeping my 3.4 camaro and not selling it.....although, i was thinking about doing the same thing that you did, except i dont know all the exact details. First off, i was thinking about buying me a 3.4 engine out of the newer grand ams for anywhere between $500 to $700, so that would keep me from stressing out by trying to find those parts. Well, if i do this...what all do i need to swap out besides the heads and the intake manifold.........will the intake plenum off the grand am fit on my camaro engine?........and what do u mean by fuel rails, did you get those off the car or buy them from a parts store.....and what size fuel injectors do i need to get.......i was think about going with 17# injectors since they can be stock replacement and i dont want to affect the gas mileage...if you could be more specific, then i would appreciate that a lot.....

[koolchriscamaro]

oh....and i was planning on putting a stage 2 chip that is made from the company JET......and from what i heard, it will make your car use more fuel when your getting on the gas......so will 17# injectors be fine.........and do you not have a chip on your car?............

[B34M3R]

The fuel rails will come connected to the intake mani.... as for the plenum, its part the manifold and must be used with the grand am one... the question is would the hood clear... which I'm fairly sure it would... and as for the injectors, once again, go with the grandam ones... which would come with it if you bought the whole engine.

Hey Black34v6, could you post some pics of your engine bay? I'm really curious to see what the 3400 heads and mani look like in a camaro bay... where does the TB end up?

[Black34v6]

pictures of engine bay:
http://www.adwire.com/camaro/modpics

that was when i FIRST did the swap, using parts from a 1996 Grand Am GT (3100 engine) - i then swapped up to the 3400 parts later.

the injectors on the grand am are 19# injectors (or 22 - depending on whether you get them from a 1999 grand am gt or a 2000 grand am gt)

[Hot Black Trans-Am]

I had a 2003 Alero coupe with the 3.4 in it. I thought it was a very good v6. I put a cold air intake kit with a K&N filter, exhaust, lowering springs, KYB shocks and it was a surprisingly quick good handling car. Good job keeping the V6 interest and modding alive.

[Wesman]

I hope I dont come off as sounding ignorant by saying this, but I am in no way an expert on engines and I just dont understand how you can say that. I never understood why american v6's were always so underpowered as compared to certain Japanese counterparts. The 3.5L v6 in a G35 and 350Z produce 300hp and around 284 tq, the 3.2L v6 in an 04 acura TL produces 270hp and 250tq, and the 3.0L v6 in an 06 accord makes 244hp and around 220tq...and all these engines are single cam (not sure about the nissan 3.5)
All these engines are a lot newer granted, and technology has improved, but japanese engines have always been producing more power than comparable american v6's. I know tuning, timing etc is all different, but why would american car manufacturers insist on producing engine that aren't comparable to other manufacturers instead of copying their technology and looking at ways to improve it? And i know american engines are tuned more for torque etc, but doesnt it make american cars seem inferior to japanese cars when honda squeezed out 170 hp and like 120 tq from the b16 dohc 1.6L inline four in the early 90's, which is more hp from LESS THAN HALF of the diplacement (yes, i know a lot less torque). How could you consider a stock 3.4L v6 making 200 hp a top ten engine?
Personally, i prefer american cars any day, but is it any wonder why ford stock is at 6 dollars a share and american car makers are loosing ground to the japanese every day? In the end i think it comes down to hp/liter which is the most important peice of information you can know about an engine. 325/5.7(LS1) = 57hp/liter...i mean come on is that the best americans can do? It becuase of stupid things liek what you described in your post that american engines jsut are not up to par with the rest of the world. We need new thinking in detroit or else soon enough we wont have any american cars left to idolize.

The reason is that the American Manufacturers use the 6 cylinder engines for the base models, therefore they aren't performance oriented. If you want performance, you buy the V8. Simple as that. No need to make a 300HP 6 cylinder when its only purpose is to be installed in secretary cars that aren't going to be driven hard. The 6 cylinders make acceptable power (they aren't slow, they just aren't fast), get decent fuel economy, sound pretty good, and will run virtually forever. When your high-tech Nissan V6 is rapping its valves 200K miles and takes a shit, the 3.4 and 3800 will still be going strong.

The Japs have this idea that extracting as much power as possible from smaller engine has some benefit, when the reality is you end up with a gutless engine that only has top end power and still gets the same fuel economy as a larger one. As they say, "you gotta feed the horses", regardless of the size of the motor. So why have a 300HP V6 when you can have a 300HP V8 that sounds 100x better, achieves the same fuel economy, has a much better powerband, and responds better to mods?? Think of it like that, and you'll see its pointless.

Anyhow, good info, learned a few things about the 3.4 and 3800 that I didn't know before.

[koolchriscamaro]

pictures of engine bay:
http://www.adwire.com/camaro/modpics

that was when i FIRST did the swap, using parts from a 1996 Grand Am GT (3100 engine) - i then swapped up to the 3400 parts later.

the injectors on the grand am are 19# injectors (or 22 - depending on whether you get them from a 1999 grand am gt or a 2000 grand am gt)

i must say, you have done a very good job with that engine and it looks really nice.....but i still need your help. I changed my mind and decided that i will try and find those parts from a junkyard....maybe off a bad block or something........So if im trying to go for better gas mileage along with the performance, would it be better to go with the '99 grand am stuff or the '00 grand am stuff..........or does it even matter, but i do plan on putting a JET stage 2 chip on my car....i just dont want my engine to drink up the gas like a v8......and what all would i need besides the intake manifold, heads, intake plenum, TB, is there any little stuff that i need to ask the junk yard for?...........and would i need to get the bolts and stuff off the other engine or will my factory ones work with these new parts.....and would i need to go ahead and get the fuel injectors off the used grand am(which im kinda against since i think i should go ahead and get some brand new ones), or would it be any better to get some aftermarket ACCEL fuel injectors...and if i do, do they need to be for my '95 camaro or do they need to be for the grand am that i get the parts off of................IM very sorry for asking so many questions, but i lack a lot of knowledge when it comes to cars and i plan on paying a mechanic to do all my work.........i just want to get all of my parts the 1st time and i hope youll understand that......any information about all of this will be greatly appreciated!

[koolchriscamaro]

pictures of engine bay:
http://www.adwire.com/camaro/modpics

that was when i FIRST did the swap, using parts from a 1996 Grand Am GT (3100 engine) - i then swapped up to the 3400 parts later.

the injectors on the grand am are 19# injectors (or 22 - depending on whether you get them from a 1999 grand am gt or a 2000 grand am gt)

hey....i was looking at your pics and i forgot to ask..........what did you do with the vaccum hose and the MAF sensor that hooked up to your intake.............and what is that circular looking thing between the brake fluid and the coils( i hope i dont come out sounding dumb, but i dont recognize it on my car)

[Black34v6]

ppl have their own opinions against the 3.4, and i disagree with all of them...and thats all i will contribute to the discussion.

[koolchriscamaro]

ppl have their own opinions against the 3.4, and i disagree with all of them...and thats all i will contribute to the discussion.

Now come on now....please dont b like that.........when i first got my camaro which is a green '95 convertible..........i really liked it except the engine...............i really got pissed that i didnt have a 3.8, and ended up getting the puny 3.4 and i even thought about swapping in a v8........but my opinions about the engine changed very greatly after i had read your thread........so can you please answer at least a couple of the questions that i had asked............because if you do, then i can build my car off of your info....

[B34M3R]

The fuel injectors would need to be off the grandam for the swap... the difference in gas mileage between the years would be minor, if noticable at all... and likely would be better than you have now, due to the better flow of the new heads, overall efficency in the motor will be up, so even the slightly larger injectors would still improve mileage, in all conditions OTHER then WOT.

The circular thing is an aftermarket alarm.... As for the chip, its likely a waste of money... chips rarely do jack-crap for any NA car, let alone little V-6. I would imagine the money would be better spent elsewhere... like an exhaust system, or if you REALLY wanted to open the car up, a cam would be a good choice with the head swap. Of course, with the cam, the larger aftermarket injectors would be a good idea. (even though they are aftermarket, they need to be for a grandam still.)

Hope I helped some.

[koolchriscamaro]

okay...once again i have a few more questions.........and i appreciate the advice i've been given so far...........okay, do i head gaskets for the camaro or grand am( i think the grand am) and what set of headers can i go with that wont give me any leaks................

[Namrepus28]

Very impressive write up!

+1. I just read it. I have a 3.8L myself, but I'm over at FTV6 most of the time, and see alot of 3.4L guys stuggling at times. Some of them get it right, and some of them don't just like you said.

I'm very impressed by the thought, time, and effort that went into your write up. It's amazing how careful observation and thinking things through can result in such dramatic changes in an engine's performance.

Too many people try bolt-ons without considering what exactly they're actually doing and whether or not it will solve the main design flaws from the factory.

Good on you sir, for going about this in a scholarly manner and having such impressive results.

[Namrepus28]

okay...once again i have a few more questions.........and i appreciate the advice i've been given so far...........okay, do i head gaskets for the camaro or grand am( i think the grand am) and what set of headers can i go with that wont give me any leaks................

Well they type of header is generally limited to three:

Pacesetter
RKSport
CIA

I've heard tales of leaks with a few of them, but the most common source of leaks, I've found, is the gaskets. Get a good set of gaskets, tighten them properly, for the first while after the headers are installed as you drive the car, and you should be relatively leak free. Other leaks have cropped up mind you, but the gaskets are usually the main issue.

Most of the folks over at FTV6 swear by the CIA headers as the best.

(And if you'll give me a moment, I'll try to go remember what exactly CIA stands for to get you a website address...)

Edit* I'm speaking of the Camaro in this post.

[koolchriscamaro]

again i appreciate the info and hope to recieve more.....but if i get a set of cylinder heads off a '99 or '00 grand am gt.....do i need head gaskets for the grand am or camaro........the head gaskets look identical, except i think the corners on the grand am look as if the heads had been ported...if youll know what i mean..........and would a upper and lower intake and TB off a 94-96 grand am fit on a set of 99 or 00 grand am heads???

[Namrepus28]

again i appreciate the info and hope to recieve more.....but if i get a set of cylinder heads off a '99 or '00 grand am gt.....do i need head gaskets for the grand am or camaro........the head gaskets look identical, except i think the corners on the grand am look as if the heads had been ported...if youll know what i mean..........and would a upper and lower intake and TB off a 94-96 grand am fit on a set of 99 or 00 grand am heads???


Personally I can't help you with the other stuff. Ask around at fullthrottleV6 .com in the grand-am section. (N-bodies I think?) and you'll find some answers from the pros there.

[Forced_Firebird]

again i appreciate the info and hope to recieve more.....but if i get a set of cylinder heads off a '99 or '00 grand am gt.....do i need head gaskets for the grand am or camaro........the head gaskets look identical, except i think the corners on the grand am look as if the heads had been ported...if youll know what i mean..........and would a upper and lower intake and TB off a 94-96 grand am fit on a set of 99 or 00 grand am heads???

Use the 3x00 gaskets that correspond with your heads. You will also need the 3400 pistons, or you will have significantly higher compression. The 3.4 pistons have an 8mm dish and the 3400 pistons have a 27cc dish. 3500 heads will get you 12:1CR with the stock RWD "Camaro" pistons.

Also judging by the pics of "Elanor", the 3500 plenum should clear in a 4th gen Fbody. I have a 3rd gen, and I am positive the 3500 plenum will clear in my car.

Here are some pics of the 2.8/3.1, 3400 and 3500 top end respectively...
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/headpics/100_3000.jpg

[ROSCOE48]

We Just Purchased A 2007 Pontiac Torrent--with A 3.4l Sfi V6-i Realized The Engine Was Made In China-do You Know How They Are Holding Up- Reliable- Any Problems- I Did Not Realize Gm Products Had Chinese Motors

[Black34v6]

i have no idea bout the chinese thing -- cant really comment on that.

as for the 3500 plenum fitting - no way. unless you wanna lower the motor. i barely got the 3400 intake to fit and i had to remove the "3400 sfi" off the top (read: grind away).

the 3500 intake is taller than the 3400 and you cant shave off any material.

[B34M3R]

Now, when you say lower the motor, do you mean modify the mounts? Because thats what I inferred from your post...

Looking at the pics from your car, there still looks like theres some clearance... but not enough to install from the top of the car... is that what you meant by dropping the motor?

[koolchriscamaro]

i have no idea bout the chinese thing -- cant really comment on that.

as for the 3500 plenum fitting - no way. unless you wanna lower the motor. i barely got the 3400 intake to fit and i had to remove the "3400 sfi" off the top (read: grind away).

the 3500 intake is taller than the 3400 and you cant shave off any material.

hey black34....if its not too much to ask....plz listen to what i gotta say......alright, i just bought the intake manifolds off a '99 grand am gt and they are in great shape.....im fixin to recieve a set of 3100 heads in the mail(the guy said that they would work on the 3.4 engine, plus they were a bargain)....now, i have found a mechanic that is willing to do the work, but he wants me to ask you a few questions....first off, did you take the engine out when you did these top end swaps......did you have any trouble with the electrical wiring, how much did you grind off on the 3400 intake.....and lastly, did you use the lifters and pushrods that were on the camaro engine with these new heads...............the mechanic says it would be alot easier if the engine came out since there isnt much clearance and he quoted me $1,000,but if it can be done without the engine coming out.....than i think $1,000 is kind of overpriced (he is also goind to put my headers on).....plz help me out because it is needed badly and i am determined to do this......

[B34M3R]

Honestly, thats a relatively fair price, IMO.

He is doing the equivilent of changing 2 head gaskets, intake mani gaskets, and of course there is the whole factor that its not a stock job... complications might occur. And yes, it would be MUCH easier to drop the motor...

Also, I'm willing to bet the 3100 heads will have a significantly smaller combustion chamber, there-by raising your compression ratio... possible to a dangerous ratio... Get good, thick, copper head gaskets if you are going to use the 3100 heads, at the very least. I don't know that for sure... but its a safe bet.

[koolchriscamaro]

Honestly, thats a relatively fair price, IMO.

He is doing the equivilent of changing 2 head gaskets, intake mani gaskets, and of course there is the whole factor that its not a stock job... complications might occur. And yes, it would be MUCH easier to drop the motor...

Also, I'm willing to bet the 3100 heads will have a significantly smaller combustion chamber, there-by raising your compression ratio... possible to a dangerous ratio... Get good, thick, copper head gaskets if you are going to use the 3100 heads, at the very least. I don't know that for sure... but its a safe bet.

from what i researched.....the only difference in the 3100 and 3400 heads is that the valves and rocker arms are bigger on the 3400......plus, like mr. black 34 mentioned......the same top end was used on the 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 engines.......so your engine and my engine both have basically a 2.8 top end.....so i believe that the 3100 heads would have a bigger combustion chamber..............by the way, i bought one of those Chilton's book for my camaro, but since i am going to put a grand am top end, wouldn't i need another Chilton's book so i would know what to torque the head and manifold bolts on the grand am parts.............i sure hope that mr. black 34 gives us some more info because its needed

[Man from Mars]

We Just Purchased A 2007 Pontiac Torrent--with A 3.4l Sfi V6-i Realized The Engine Was Made In China-do You Know How They Are Holding Up- Reliable- Any Problems- I Did Not Realize Gm Products Had Chinese Motors

I just purchased one over the weekend. It averaged 24 MPG in mostly highway driving @ 75 to 80 MPH, so at least it is fuel efficient. Not bad for a vehicle that weighs 5000 lb. If it is of poor quality then GM is going to go broke fixing cars with a 5yr, 100K Powertrain Warranty. I think it is a little lacking in power for it's size (185 hp), but my estranged wife, is happy with it, and will be driving it. Maybe she will like shuttling her guy friends around in it. I wonder if the engine parts are also made in China, or just the assembly work?

LOL to both of us!

[koolchriscamaro]

I cant believe how much ive learned about my camaro 3.4 in the past couple of months or so..........i gotta say though, this black34v6 guy isn't much help........well, just to let everyone know, i am an 18 year old makin minimum wage and ive about had enough saved up to do this top end swap..........so far i got the intake manifolds off a '99 grand am gt..........now im fixin to get some reconditioned heads for about $200 a piece........im also looking for used fuel rail, new injectors come later, and used headers...........wanting some used parts just to save money because $5.85 and hour just takes too long to buy new parts..........now despite what i just said, there is one question that needs answered because its botherin the he** outta me.....................................do i use grand am pushrods or the camaro pushrods, i just recently found out that the grand am pushrods are shorter than the camaro......grand am intake pushrod=5.746, grand am exhaust pushrod=6.074...........camaro intake and exhaust pushrods=6.163........................I know that if i put the wrong pushrods in my engine than it will screw everything up so advice would be appreciated....................................als o i am going to put a comp 260 cam, replace the lifters with either brand new stock ones or some competition ones(dont know yet depending on the price difference, plus i dont race my car....just want a lot more pep is all), and i might as well replace the timing chain, flywheel, and the idler pulley while im at it just to be safe(only $30).
Now with all that said, is there anything else that i should replace. I forgot to mention that i have a '95 camaro with only 59,000 miles.
ADVICE OVER WHAT I HAVE MENTIONED AND ASKED WILL BE APPRECIATED AND IS NEED......THANKS

[Forced_Firebird]

I cant believe how much ive learned about my camaro 3.4 in the past couple of months or so..........i gotta say though, this black34v6 guy isn't much help........well, just to let everyone know, i am an 18 year old makin minimum wage and ive about had enough saved up to do this top end swap..........so far i got the intake manifolds off a '99 grand am gt..........now im fixin to get some reconditioned heads for about $200 a piece........im also looking for used fuel rail, new injectors come later, and used headers...........wanting some used parts just to save money because $5.85 and hour just takes too long to buy new parts..........now despite what i just said, there is one question that needs answered because its botherin the he** outta me.....................................do i use grand am pushrods or the camaro pushrods, i just recently found out that the grand am pushrods are shorter than the camaro......grand am intake pushrod=5.746, grand am exhaust pushrod=6.074...........camaro intake and exhaust pushrods=6.163........................I know that if i put the wrong pushrods in my engine than it will screw everything up so advice would be appreciated....................................als o i am going to put a comp 260 cam, replace the lifters with either brand new stock ones or some competition ones(dont know yet depending on the price difference, plus i dont race my car....just want a lot more pep is all), and i might as well replace the timing chain, flywheel, and the idler pulley while im at it just to be safe(only $30).
Now with all that said, is there anything else that i should replace. I forgot to mention that i have a '95 camaro with only 59,000 miles.
ADVICE OVER WHAT I HAVE MENTIONED AND ASKED WILL BE APPRECIATED AND IS NEED......THANKS
First, don't rag on people that can give you info. Russel (black34v6) is one of the hybrid origionators. You can learn a lot from him.

Next, have your car ready to be down for a few weeks if it is your daily driver.

I believe I'm the first to build a 3.4/3500 hybrid, definately the only one boosted, especially to put one in a 3rd gen f-body.

You should be grateful that anybody wants to share info with you, but since the deck height to cam distance hasn't changed since the 2.8, the pushrods that came in the motor from in which your heads are from, are the ones you need to use.

I'm using 2004 3500 heads, 1995 3100 pushrods and guides modified to fit, 2004 LS6 GTO valve spring with different locks, retainers, keepers, 3400 pistons (for boost and 3.4 pistons for N/A testing), 1.7 ratio roller rockers from a Ford small block. The entire top end is getting a mirror-polish port jo abd gasket matching with a set of custom headers built by me. My redline will be near 7500rpm, and looking to get over 250hp before re-applying boost.

[koolchriscamaro]

First, don't rag on people that can give you info. Russel (black34v6) is one of the hybrid origionators. You can learn a lot from him.

Next, have your car ready to be down for a few weeks if it is your daily driver.

I believe I'm the first to build a 3.4/3500 hybrid, definately the only one boosted, especially to put one in a 3rd gen f-body.

You should be grateful that anybody wants to share info with you, but since the deck height to cam distance hasn't changed since the 2.8, the pushrods that came in the motor from in which your heads are from, are the ones you need to use.

I'm using 2004 3500 heads, 1995 3100 pushrods and guides modified to fit, 2004 LS6 GTO valve spring with different locks, retainers, keepers, 3400 pistons (for boost and 3.4 pistons for N/A testing), 1.7 ratio roller rockers from a Ford small block. The entire top end is getting a mirror-polish port jo abd gasket matching with a set of custom headers built by me. My redline will be near 7500rpm, and looking to get over 250hp before re-applying boost.
hey im sorry.....just got a little impatient.......ya, i am very grateful because i thought it was impossible for my car to perform......

[koolchriscamaro]

please help guys.....since im doing this top end swap on my camaro, do i need to get some spark plugs for the camaro or the grand am, they both have the same engine block but different top ends.....so does that make a big difference on the spark plugs, im keeping the stock camaro pistons by the way......i did some research on the specs on the spark plugs that i want(NGK Iridium)....and the only difference in the camaro and grand am spark plugs is that camaro plug reach is .460 inches and the grand am plug reach is .708 inches....also did russel get camaro headers or grand am headers with those grand am heads.......and if anyone can help, where can i get all my intake manifold bolts and head bolts....do you think a dealership could order them.......thanks for any advice

[Forced_Firebird]

Use the Grand Am plugs, Camaro pistons will only work with the 3500 heads, and the 3500 UIM won't fit under a 4th gen cowl without modification, 3.4 headers will work if you enlongate the bolt holes a little, pushrods must be from a 3x00, fuel rail from 3100/3400 3500 is returnless, TB pulls from a different direction need longer cable 3500 TB can't be used it's drive-by-wire. Bolts available from GM or GM parts direct, no aftermarket 3500 gaskets are available yet.

[koolchriscamaro]

well, i guess i'll have to change out the pistons after all.....i was hoping i wouldn't, but i dont wont extremely high compression.........do you know what the difference is between the '99 grand am and '00 grand am(3.4 of course)......i got the manifolds(upper and lower) from a '99 on ebay and i was wondering what the difference in the manifolds is between the '99 and '00....the reason i want to know is because i just recently bought a set of heads for a '99 grand am, but i wish that i bought the heads for a '00 because the parts are so much easier to find for the '00 and up grand ams and i also just bidded on some fuel rail and injectors off a gm '99 3400 minivan......now, will the fuel rail and injectors off the '99 minivan fit on the parts i have just bought....if they do then i will stick with the parts that i have.........but if they dont, then i will return the heads back to the company and replace it with '00 heads(only if the manifolds are the same with '99 and '00)......only thing that sucks is that i will have to pay a restocking fee, but its better than having to buy expensive completly new fuel rails which would run me at least $130 not counting fuel injectors...doesn't the heads on the '00 grand ams and up have larger valves than the '99? .........bunch of questions, i know, but im learning something new every time someone replies to my questions.........by the way, im having all this work done this winter, so i am in somewhat of a hurry..........thankx for any info

[Forced_Firebird]

PM sent

[koolchriscamaro]

alright, im bak again and i've got good news.......i just found a mechanic that has a 3400 engine laying around that came out of a '99 grand am.......the engine had a rod knocking and he is going to sell it to me for just $100......kinda pisses me off a little cuz i wasted a $110 dollars on manifolds, fuel rail, and injectors when i could've just bought all that with the whole engine. but i dont regret buying the reconditioned heads, cuz aluminum is soft metal so id rather spend the money on good heads........well, im gonna pick up the engine sometime next week, so ill use the heads to take care of the core charge that i got for my reconditioned heads, ill keep the used rocker arms since my reconditioned heads didn't come with them....and ill just use the engine for necessary parts needed to do the swap(such as bolts)....ill make sure i get new head bolts though......now, would it be wise to use these pistons since the engine had a rod knocking, i dont think so but i would like someones opinion......ill probably go ahead and get some new 3400 FWD pistons just to be safe but i need to know if these will work with my camaro rods and what exactly is the difference in the camaro and grand am pistons(3.4).....also...im fixing to go to a machine shop to have my heads pressure tested to make sure they are in good shape......should i have my manifolds resurfaced......or would that ruin the alignment that they make....the manifolds.....also, im going to put a cam in my car and i cant decide if id rather have a comp cam or a crane cam.....a mechanic told me the other day that a cam will cause the car to run like crap if the computer isn't tuned, if youll dont mind, take a look at http://engine.firebirdv6.com/cam.html and tell me if i should go with the crane cam or comp cam....ill probably make more power with the comp cam, but may have more computer problems and idling problems than if i went with the crane cam which is a bit smaller....the website also shows the stock 3.4 cam so it can be compared....also, would a jet performance chip(stage 2) not help out as far as the computer problems with the bigger cam.......advice is needed........

[Forced_Firebird]

Don't waste your money one of those cams. Call Delta Camshafts (google them). I got a 262 cam from them for $100 with lifters. You can buy a 262 cam from GM for $125 with lifters. 262 will run with a stock tune, 272 won't. You still should look into something for tuning, but with a OBD1.5 you don't have many options.

You should be more worried about LIM bolts than head bolts. Iron block and aluminum heads in combination with the head design can lead to a LIM failure. Spend the extra dough and get severe duty gaskets to remedy this. 3500 top ends have a re-designed gasket, but don't work with 3400 parts, with the exception of the UIM gasket. The metal 3500 UIM gasket is what everyone ports to (including myself).

[koolchriscamaro]

okay, i will take your advice and buy a cam 262......as for the manifolds, i have that taken care of because i bought the new designed 3400 gaskets which has a metal LIM gasket, unlike the plastic gaskets that the grand ams come from the factory with......im not sure about the UIM gaskets, though.....should i get metal if they arent........anyway, the kit also came with the manifold bolts along with some thread locker already applied ......, so i should be alright with the manifolds.....but my biggest concern is will the grand am pistons fit on my rods and do i use camaro lifters or grand am lifters(these may be stupid questions, but it doesn't hurt to ask).....i gotta say, i am very grateful that i am recieving all these answers because it helps a hell of a lot and helps put me in the right direction.....thankx

[koolchriscamaro]

i discussed some of this to my old man(dad) and he mentioned that pistons and the cylinder walls are constantly wearing in a running engine and he thinks i should bore the cylinder walls and get oversized pistons for additional power.......so, if i go up one notch from the factory pistons, which i think is .50 MM, will that be safe......he also said that the more you bore out the cylinders....the weaker that they get........i plan on keeping this car till the day that i die if i dont ever wreck it......so would you advise that i bore out the cylinder walls or leave them alone and get factory GA pistons.....i want my engine block to last as long as the car

[Forced_Firebird]

When you open the engine and you still see cross hatches, I would just use a hand hone. If there are vertical scores/scratches, then over bore would be a good idea. I'll have to double check, but I'm almost positive the rods and pistons didn't change until 2002. Here's some more info for you...

http://wiki.60degreev6.com/index.php?title=60%C2%BAV6_Family_Tree

[koolchriscamaro]

well...in the other websites that i've looked at.....they only mention swapping out the pistons and the top end.......so i guess i keep my rods.....but now i've come across another problem.....russel mentioned that he used his stock 3.4 RWD wiring harness for the fuel injectors, so im guessing that he also used camaro injectors(along with the grand am fuel rail of course) but since the grand am injectors were 19's........does that mean that i need to get 19 # camaro injectors or does it even matter........what would u suggest 19 0r 21.........

[Forced_Firebird]

With the new heads, your motor is going to need more fuel. I'm starting with 24# injectors, but with MegaSquirt tuning. You may need to experiment a little with FP and injector size to get your car to run decent with a stock tune/ECM.

[koolchriscamaro]

instead of having my car worked on this winter......im just gonna keep my good motor in the car(only 60,000 miles) and build me a 3.4 that ill get out of a junkyard..........the reason why im gonna build it(which i dont know much about) is because my old man is gonna help me and show me how(he use to do mechanic work for a living)........he was against it at first, but then gave in...........well, right now im tearing down that 3400 engine that came out of a '99 grand am (with rod knocking) .......well, my old man said that the engine was in good shape and didnt need to be bored out(even though it had 154,000 miles on it and rarely saw an oil change)....well,just exactly how much fabrication would be required if i wanted to use that FWD block on my camaro..........if its too much, then i will just go to a junkyard and get a RWD block, ............ALSO, does anyone know if 3400 pisons will fit camaro 3.4 rods...i need to know this ........another thing, im strongly thinking about building this motor stout so it can handle supercharging in the future.........what do i need besides forged pistons(i dont plan on much boost)and do i need copper head gaskets or what..........thanks again to any advice given

[koolchriscamaro]

oh.....ill either do supercharging or turbocharging...........i guess ill need bigger injectors to(which ill have no idea on what size to get)......i wonder how supercharging and turbocharging are different on the extra stress they put on the motor

[Forced_Firebird]

The 3400 pistons will fit on the 3.4 rods.

It's not easy to get a FWD engine in a RWD car, you would want a tubular k-member to make it easier.

The stock rods are forged steel, the crank is cast. Forged pistons are going to run you about $600, but don't really need them if you have a good tune. On that subject, you can't just put larger injectors in without a tune and expect it to run good. You have an OBD1.5 ECM and not too many people have bothered to hack it because it was limited in production. Your three best options in order from best to worst (IMO) is
1. Standalone ECM (I'm using MegaSquirt)
2. Upgrade to OBD1 or OBD2
3. Use the stock injectors and a rising rate fuel pressure reulator aka: FMU or RRFPR

[koolchriscamaro]

i know ive asked a hell of a lot of questions, but i figure that these are all basic questions that will be asked from anyone interested in this top end swap(and pistons of course)....but i need to know something, i bought a delta camshaft and it arrived yesterday.....i think i got like a 250-something, i couldnt get in the 260's because they didn't work with the stock tune...my cam should work from off idle to around 5000 so i think ive got a good can cuz i drive around town a lot and would rather have a lot of low end torque........but what im wonderin is why cant the roller cam and roller lifters be used.....or can they be used, cuz that would give me more power and better performance than a flat tappet, would it not?

[Forced_Firebird]

There's no provisions in the RWD block to keep the lifters square to the cam.

[koolchriscamaro]

you mentioned earlier in this thread that i would need pushrods for the grand am........but are you 100% positive....we just took the cam and lifters off the 3400 engine so that we could inspect it and then we compared it to the delta camshaft and lifters that i had just ordered.....surprisingly, the lobes on the 3400 cam are bigger than the delta cam, also, the roller lifters off the 3400 engine are longer than the delta lifters....i know that if i put the wrong pushrods on the engine, then i will screw the everything up.......

[Forced_Firebird]

you mentioned earlier in this thread that i would need pushrods for the grand am........but are you 100% positive....we just took the cam and lifters off the 3400 engine so that we could inspect it and then we compared it to the delta camshaft and lifters that i had just ordered.....surprisingly, the lobes on the 3400 cam are bigger than the delta cam, also, the roller lifters off the 3400 engine are longer than the delta lifters....i know that if i put the wrong pushrods on the engine, then i will screw the everything up.......
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a shorter lifter and a bigger base circle on the cam, couldn't that off-set the difference? I haven't gotten to final assembly yet, but Russel (origional poster) has had 3400 pushrods in his car since 2001 IIRC. Wolf just finished his swap and also used 3x00 pushrods and has been running for a few months.

What head gaskets did you use? You need to be using 3400 gaskets with the heads to keep the lobe to rocker lenthe the same as the 3x00 engines.

[Street Lethal]

^ Hey bro, glad to see your a member here.... :D

[Forced_Firebird]

^ Hey bro, glad to see your a member here.... :D

:D I'm everywhere ;).

I just try to help with information that I have, and someone else might use :)

[wantsumuscle11]

I have a 1998 Toyota 4-Runner with a 3400. Is this the same type engine or am I being stupid.

[98formy]

Nope, totally different.

[koolchriscamaro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a shorter lifter and a bigger base circle on the cam, couldn't that off-set the difference? I haven't gotten to final assembly yet, but Russel (origional poster) has had 3400 pushrods in his car since 2001 IIRC. Wolf just finished his swap and also used 3x00 pushrods and has been running for a few months.

What head gaskets did you use? You need to be using 3400 gaskets with the heads to keep the lobe to rocker lenthe the same as the 3x00 engines.
im sure if russel hasn't had any problems, then everythings A-okay....and i havent got the head gasket yet, but im gonna get the 3400 head gaskets...........but i noticed on fullthrottlev6 that you were working on making the 3500 top end to work on our cars.....are the 3500 heads made of cast iron?cuz id rather have iron heads because they dont warp as easy and last longer......i noticed that you were looking at asking around $500 per kit on the 3500 top ends in MArch, well, what do you expect the compression ration to be since these heads are modified to use pump gas, cuz i sure would hate to have valves rattling......if you dont mind, could you give me some more info on this kit and if it comes with gaskets(i know that o'reilys cant get a hold of any UIM gasket for the 3500 at this time)......i hate that i already bought 3400 heads, manifolds and gaskets, but i still have to buy an engine to build.....so its not too late for me to change my mind and use 3500 top end............and i dont care to do this if theres not any complications.......also, how much more power do you think i would get out of the 3500 heads over the '99 3400 heads that i have right now?...


Another big thing, im getting tired of people saying that there is no way to tune the computer on the camaro 3.4........i've done said like 5 times that you can get a jet chip..........google "jet chip" and look up your car and i guarantee that they have a "chip module" for your car....the chip module is suppose to hook right up to your computer without cutting wires.....they have stage1 for stock vehicles....stage2 for vehicles with intake,exhaust, and 180degree thermostat......and then if you plan on doing a top end swap and running a different cam and all that good stuff....then Jet Chip can make a custom chip for your car........i plan on have Jet chip make me a custom chip to work with whatever top end i end up swapping on my camaro and to work with the specs on my new cam, exhaust, etc..........so, you do not have to use Megasquirt tuning, although it would probably be better but more of a hassel,a custom Jet Chip will cost you $400........i just thought id let everyone know cuz it feels like im the only one that know about Jet Chip

[koolchriscamaro]

by the way, forced firebird, pleas let me know(and the rest of us) how your project goes with the 3500 top end as far as power and the quarter mile and all that good stuff.......i am very interested..........

[Forced_Firebird]

$500 gets you a 3500 top end with the chambers modified to work with 3.4 pistons, but I wouldn't recomend this combo if you are going with boost. It will run on pupm gas, and you are resposible for a TB, throttle cable and ECM.

The kits will contain everything needed to do the swap, but is going to cost a bit more (gaskets and all). A 3400 UIM is better for a 4th gan F-body because the 3500 plenum needs to be modified to fit.

3500 heads are aluminum and I offer porting/polishing as well...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3359.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3347.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3349.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3319.jpg

[koolchriscamaro]

$500 gets you a 3500 top end with the chambers modified to work with 3.4 pistons, but I wouldn't recomend this combo if you are going with boost. It will run on pupm gas, and you are resposible for a TB, throttle cable and ECM.

The kits will contain everything needed to do the swap, but is going to cost a bit more (gaskets and all). A 3400 UIM is better for a 4th gan F-body because the 3500 plenum needs to be modified to fit.

3500 heads are aluminum and I offer porting/polishing as well...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3359.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3347.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3349.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/forcedfirebird/Hybrid%20Build/100_3319.jpg
ya, ill just stick with my 3400 heads and intake manifolds that ive already bought, they'll do good enough for me......and i dont plan on boosting my motor,like i was earlier, because i see it being usless if im not going to drag race........well, heres one big thing im worried about and need your opinion.....as i mentioned earlier, i bought the delta cam 252 for my '95 camaro 3.4 engine.....i will use this on a junkyard 3.4 engine from another '95 that i will build soon............now, what im worried about is, "did i order the wrong cam?" cuz i can always have it regrinded, and i know that i need to make up my mind before i have it installed..............i drive around town a lot and never race, unless it from a traffic light........now what kind of cam would u have recommended me......a slightly lopey idle would have been nice, but im sure the 252 wont achieve that..........since im gonna have much better heads and intake manifolds, headers and full exhaust,CAI, and even a custom chip module.....should i have got a bigger cam?.........im afraid that the 252(rpm range was said to be from 1000 to 5000-5500) will have too much low end torque which might cause me to spin too much........
the specs at .o5"tappet lift is duration:intake=208.4,exh.=204.1.........valve lift: intake=.420,exh.=.419...........advice is needed because im confused and i know that the cam is one of the most important parts in building an engine........by the way, can you inform me a little on the delta 262 cam that you said you had with those 3500 heads.........where is your power range?, do you still have enough low end torque?, hows the idle, ........what is the duration and lift..........thanks for any info cuz its needed again........

[Forced_Firebird]

252 is a mild cam, 272 is too big for a stock ECM. If you do some better valve springs, you can have a 7000RPM redline, most of the 660's start running out of power at about 6500. You are going to have to choose your cam for your application, and remember that the 3400 heads have a 1.6 rocker ratio.

I didn't end up buying the cam just yet, and am probably going to go much bigger (280 adv dur range). I don't mind it being a little less streetable, as long as I can take it to bring the wife to the movies, and drive 50miles to the track, I'm happy ;).

With a .419 cam (speced with 1.5 rockers), then you have .447 with 1.6 rockers - the 262 is a .440 lift cam :D

If you use LS6 valve springs (takes some mods to make work) - then you have a max lift of .550, but should keep it a little less for spring longevity.

[koolchriscamaro]

so if i keep the .419 cam with the 1.6 rockers what i have, then i will have .447 lift instead....right?......if so, well, is this going to change my duration and will my rpm range still be the same...........and the most important part, will those stock GA springs still handle the extra lift and still have longevity.......i really don't want to have to buy more valve springs, but i will if i need to

[koolchriscamaro]

Sorry, that was probably a dumb question, i will find out when i get the engine together and all the measurements are taken.........by the way.....no one mentioned the torque converter.....did you'll change this.......i dont really know what different stalls do....i figure it gives you a better launch.....but hell, if im gonna take the engine out of my car, it would probably be wise to put a better converter in their.............and another thing, i live with my old man(grandfather) and he used to do mechanic work for a living.....he delivers mail and is always working on his mail truck to keep it running(its got over 300,000 miles on the truck).....but anyway, that's besides the point, the point is that he doesn't believe that im gonna get much power out of my car....he thinks that the only two ways to get power is to get higher compression or get oversized pistons.....well, my dad thinks the same thing, LIKE FATHER LIKE SON, I GUESS, but im gonna prove them wrong....it aggravates me though, cuz he thinks im dumb....he told me that a bigger cam would not give more power and different heads wouldn't..and that the damn internet is full of shit...so, when i complete this project, it will not only impress me a lot(if done right), i will also prove to the elders that they're full of shit......just thought id let you know

[ndt/oos]

well, good luck. waiting to see how this goes

[Forced_Firebird]

He doesn't know that a bigger then stock cam will give improvement? I understand a cam TOO big for the setup is not the way to go, but the stock cams are geared towards reliability and gas mileage - not power.

Most bolt-on street motors do best with a mid-sized cam. Over-camming sounds cool at idle and WOT, but isn't alway optimal.

[maxpit]

Nice post...

[3.4SS]

Good stuf but i am wondering what pushrods you used with your conversion

[koolchriscamaro]

Good stuf but i am wondering what pushrods you used with your conversion

ya, i wondered the same thing for the longest, until i did a crap-load of research. Use pushrods off a '91 cavalier with a 3.1
that would be the easiest way to remember it. you can buy the pushrods of rockauto.com for $20. you'll have to have 6 intake valves and 6 exhaust valves and they each cost around a dollar and a half a piece. measurements are intake= 6.042 exhaust=6.389
whatever you do, DO NOT use the 3.4 pushrods. or the pushrods from the donor motor that you get the top end from (they are made for the roller cam and alluminum head combo), which is different than our setup. the '91 cavalier has a flat tappet cam and aluminum heads which is the same combo as russel.
i just recently bought a 3500 top end from john(forcedfirebird) and am fixing to put it on my car in the next two weeks(keeping stock pistons which will give me 11.5 to 1 cpr). fixing to buy a comp 260 cam or possibly bigger. first i have to finish up hooking my megasquirt(in the process). ill keep you posted and feel free to ask any more questions

[jd1666]

Hi there. My name is Russell and I have been here for a while now, posting here and there when I feel that I have information to contribute. I have owned a 3.4L Chevy Camaro since 1996 and have been on a "quest for more power" since I bought it. It's peppy enough from the get go with a manual transmission but the automatic is lacking a little bit. Even with the manual, it still has issues putting out enough power to push the massive 3250lbs that is the car itself. When you add speakers or anything else this becomes a serious hinderance to the car in terms of performance.

I have seen posts regarding the 3.4L engine, and I have seen both facts and fiction on this motor thrown around in an attempt to sway people one way or the other. Thats not what I'm trying to accomplish here. Here is my honest opinion about the 3.4L OHV (204ci) RWD engine that comes in the 1993-1995 F-body (Camaro/Firebird). Most of you will be like "oh great whatever". Those of you that know that I have been here and most often won't post in a thread unless I have something important to voice on the matter will stop and read this. And a few of you will be genuinely curious to know what it is I'm trying to convey. Pull up something to drink and some popcorn, this promises to be a long thread.
--
I have done my share of research on this engine. I even contacted GM and asked them for any information they had on the car. They promptly sent me the GM Rebuild Kit for the 1994 Chevrolet Camaro. It didn't cost me a thing and this little packet included every bit of information, original brochures from 1994, a full detailed listing of all options and factory information on every part of the engine, car, chassis, etc.

It was here that I began, studying and calculating and realizing the first thing about the motor. GM Lied. It wasn't a big lie. The motor is advertised at 207 Cubic Inches, but using valid formulas for calculating CID I came up short at only 204. I rechecked several times and came to the conclusion that GM rounded up the engine size because in reality, the "3.4L" engine is really only 3.35 Liters. Now .05 Liters isnt a huge deal..but when you start with so little, every bit counts.

Armed with this information I began signing up to different boards and clubs with the hopes of finding people who had begun to modify the car and make it work better. I came across a lot of owners who were frustrated because they hadn't found anything created by the aftermarket and had given up and advised me to do the same. My Camaro, is honestly my first car. It's the first car I ever purchased and still runs strong to this day. I didn't let anyone's dismay sway me from my goal of making my car work better for me, and not go out and try to win any awards for the most horsepower or torque or anything like that. When I discovered RKSport and their aftermarket products for the 3.4L, my hopes perked up because I realized that if I saved up enough money I could make my car work better. I began to research different engine shops in the area and stumbled across Norris Racing Tech (NRT) with their 3500 package which promised to make the engine a 3.5 Liter and give you the best performance you could get. But at 3000.00 for the engine package + shipping/handling I wrote that off.

Now I have to digress a little because I realize I skipped a very important point. Most 3.4L owners try too hard. You think that you can take your 3.4L V6 and run out and make it faster than any car on the road. That’s not going to happen. There will always be, whether you own a 3.4L v6 - a 3.8L v6 - a LT1 - LS1 – Vette – Viper – Porsche – Ferrari, a car faster than yours. The thing I realized that if I built the car for me, if I did things I wanted and questioned the conventional wisdom of “that won’t work” I would stumble across the magical mod that would give me a massive boost in the right direction. I stayed on these boards for years, watching people come on and ask, “what’s the best intake, what’s the best exhaust...” and all those things. I watched people rise and get incredible gains and saw people I knew push the limits of the engine and develop supercharger and turbocharger kits for the 3.4L, as well as take and add nitrous to it. There were a couple of “loch ness” stories about a mythical 3.4L out there running 9’s in the ¼ mile, but that person never signed up to this board or any others that I have visited, so that person remains a mystery as to whether or not they really exist.

Getting back to my topic – When I realized that I would have to work harder and think more because the things that people were doing weren’t really accomplishing much, I turned to the actual engine design and I looked at several options. I then realized, in 1999, that Pontiac’s Grand Am GT was making 175hp/205tq from a 3.4L OHV FWD motor. I did research into this engine and found that GM had worked a different path on this motor and it was better than the 3.4 RWD. I did more research into engine design and found that runner lengths help determine how much power and torque the engine gets. I looked at the plenum and runner design on the “3400” engine as well as the 3.4 RWD and realized that the RWD runners were jokes. At only 2” long and without any type of airflow acceleration present, they looked like all they served was a means to get the air from the Y shaped plenum, which once I saw a cross section – laughed at, to the cylinders. That was when I decided then and there that the plenum and air intake system was the 3.4L’s weak point. GM had spent money into making the 3.4 into a “Race style” motor. At 60 degrees the Angle of the V shape is natural. EXACTLY replicating the letter V, the angle between cylinders is 60*. The crankshaft in a six cylinder v-type engine has three throws of 120 degrees. With this combination, it makes the engine perfectly internally balanced. No bad vibrations, hence the lack of balance shaft that the 90 degree 3.8 or 3800 series II engine needs to employ to keep the motor from rubbing things the wrong way.

With that in mind, I kept looking into what I could do to increase the natural power of the engine. And I realized that the FWD heads and intake manifold were direct bolt-on parts. The holes all lined up, and they were aluminum which would shave weight off of the engine. Combined with their increased flow (I had no idea how much at the time) they would add a lot of power to an engine that was struggling. So I did more research and found that the iron heads that came with the RWD engine had been used since the original 2.8L engine came out. No changes had been made by GM. Not till they tried to use the 3.4L as a viable engine for the FWD cars did GM even consider making the 3.4L into a “performance” engine. Because of that the 3.4L has become the laughing stock of the F-body world. Many people have tried to make this engine perform better and succeeded, and many more have failed. Simply because they aren’t thinking before they throw parts at the motor. Most people think, “I can get an exhaust or intake and it’ll make the car work great!” This isn’t always the case. Most often it requires planning to increase the airflow of the engine to efficiently use such parts. Why? Because the 3.4L is anemic to begin with – GM thought that they could simply increase the bore and stroke of the engine and throw a “performance cam” into it and it would work fine. This isn’t the case because the plenum and air intake and exhaust systems are so poorly designed that it suffocates the motor without anyone giving it a second thought. While everyone is putting bigger throttle bodies and porting and polishing heads, they are neglecting the most important idea – “you engine only flows as well as the worst bottleneck.” With that in mind, ponder this thought: I asked James Montigny for his flowbench data from Norris Racing Tech on his heads. And then I asked a good friend of mine who specializes in the FWD 60 degree motor for a stock flowbench of the “3100” heads I had pulled from a 1996 3.1L engine and put on my car.

The results shocked me. The stock heads from a 1996 FWD 3.1L engine flowed as good as the heads that were bolted to Tiago’s car (many of you know him as the one who developed a turbocharger for the 3.4L and pushed it to the edge). Tiago had gotten his heads from James Montigny previously and James had the NRT engine package. I went to NRT’s site to learn that the full engine package came with the 900.00 option full port/polish and valve job. You can digest that for a minute before carrying on. GM had managed to work the heads on the FWD engines so perfectly that they flowed as well as taking a set of the iron heads and paying someone to R&D a perfect portjob on them. 900.00. Using the aluminum heads means you have 900.00 to use elsewhere.



what if i dont have any popcorn?

[jankrom]

I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time out to post this. My son and I are embarking on this journey to make his 94 a supper sleeper lol.
I've never built a V-6 before lots of V-8's.
so thank you so much for giving us a place to start!

[1fastcamarosss11]

I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time out to post this. My son and I are embarking on this journey to make his 94 a supper sleeper lol.
I've never built a V-6 before lots of V-8's.
so thank you so much for giving us a place to start!

that's pretty cool that you got use out of this thread and it is 3 years old.
good stuff.

[Black34v6]

wow. i had completely forgotten this post existed. thanks to forced firebird for picking up the slack! :)

sorry ive been away so long. been uber-busy :)

[unam20]

Wow this is great, I was honestly getting ready to give up on my 3.4L Camaro...but I have to admit I have reconsidered after reading this first post.

So what I need are (let me know if Im missing anything please):

1996 or 1999 Grand Am GT
aluminum heads, pistons, upper intake/TB, fuel rails, injectors, 3400 throttle body ( all these parts preferably 99' for better performance)

+Headers (Pacesetter/RK)...I would buy them for the Camaro or Grand Am? Also I have a K&N Intake that helps my car out some right now, would I be able to keep that or do I absolutely have ditch it and go with the Grand Am's intake?

This is my first car, got in a wreck once was told to get a new one but u know ur first car is always special so I paid $1000 total (parts and labor) to fix it.Plus Im currently having problems with the computer's security system, need a another one since with the current one the car will not start reliably, the security light will turn on in the speedometer board when I turn the switch and will not let the car start. Once again Im being told to ditch the car but I love my car so no way am I doing that. It was a hand-me down from my older bro. He has a Trans Am now, basically the same car that black34 kept up with (z28 o\convertible). I'd love to be able to keep up with the Trans Am and make my bro regret handing me down what he considered a slow car. Anyways sorry for telling this story which none of u guys probably care about but Im pretty excited about this. I'd like to prove people who diss my car wrong.