auto vs 6-speed

[mystic-z]

My a4 will smoke any m6 like it was sittin still
with 2clicks on the emergency brake, running into a head wind with 1plug wireoff.
O.K. maybe thats a slight exageration but it did get your attention.
I dug up an old article from GM hightech performance
magazine july 99 issue, the whole issue was pretty much dedicated to the ls1 that month.
The main article took 12 ls1 cars 8of which were
basically stock,ss+z a4,s +m6's,
raced + dyno,d them. Long story short there as no real differences in rwhp + or e.t.s some of the auto z's actually made more hp then the ss 6speeds + vise-
versa. Super interesting article,( I dont know if there are archives from the mag that can be brought up on the net.) I'm just wondering if that rings true today. What do you think?
Judging from what I've seen of times, they are VERY close + the m6 has the gearing advantage.

[mystic-z]

In the auto v 6 speed ,whats noticable isthe auto gives up little or no power to the 6 spd .That dovetails what we saw at the track ,where auto cars seem to be just as fast as the stick cars.. Is the parasitic loss of the r4l60 auto at an all time low, or is the ls1 making more power in auto applications? Anybody?

Now don't get mad at me I'm not making this up Its in the july 99 issue gmhtp.

[mystic-z]

It's what actually made me not mind buying an auto ls1.
I always had mustangs' And there aod's were much slower then the 5- spds they were terrible for performance.
My auto z with a slight converter is a blast to drive.

[Y2KPewterSS]

A4s need an aftermarket convertor to be able to compete with the M6s IMO. :yup:

[mystic-z]

I would agree with that, I'm sure the 323's with the perf axle would help too.

[mystic-z]

Just out of curiosity what does a stock converter, 273 car pull for times, conceivably the slowest ls1 anybody ever run that combo, bone stock?

[jbb6811]

what kind of numbers did the mag say the cars put down?
and so far i have not lost to a auto. but thats not to say they are slower.
but i have been driven a manual from the start. so i looked for a 6speed.
for me they are just more fun.

[Y2KPewterSS]

If you take 2 LS1's making similar peak HP, one being A4 and the other M6 this is typically what happens.

From a dig, the A4 should have a quicker ET and win, but the M6 will probably MPH higher.

From a roll, the M6 will probably have the advantage.

Stalled A4s will 60' better than an M6, its just a matter of whether or not the M6 has enough big end to get around the A4 before the finish.

M6s are almost always going to dyno higher, due to lesser drivetrain % loss, which is also indicative of the higher MPH down the 1320.

I am not saying one is better over the other, they are both fun and both serve their purpose. :)

[mystic-z]

what the article is saying + showing with the dyno #' is that the m6 isn't making more rwhp. I know years ago trans like the turbo 400 etc use to eat up agoodly amount of hp, what this is asking is if the a4 is not sucking out the hp like past autos, because of the dyno #'s + the ets. I'll post the #'s later,but they ran from a low of 285.1 hp +308.1 tq (m6 ss) to 300hp+316.9 also a m6 ss this was in 99 so all were 98+99 cars.
I'm not writing this because i have a auto, because outof all the muscle cars i've owned most were manual
+ Iactually want a m6 convert,
I just always had this article in the back of my mind+
after reading more it seems true that they are prett much neck + neck,with maybe an excellent driver in a
m6 having an edge if they can catch the a4 afer launch.It makes you wonder, if they had put same gears + a little looser converter if the auto would have been quicker from the factory. I would also think that as the cars get more + more modified I.E. highly modified cars the Auto becomes quicker, def more consistant, +easier to run.Harder launches, no missed shifts,) time in between shifts, less breakage etc. Again not downing M6's Just the sound of one leaving atraffic light,and rowing the gears, or going across a parkinglot at a distance makes my loins quivver, especially acammed up,geared up, high flow exaust car. OOOOH YAAAAH! Question: why do the m6's come withlower gears,MUCH lower in the case of the 273's?

[Y2KPewterSS]

Question: why do the m6's come withlower gears,MUCH lower in the case of the 273's?


Probably because of the 2 overdrives the T-56 provides. :)

[Too Fast]

Just out of curiosity what does a stock converter, 273 car pull for times, conceivably the slowest ls1 anybody ever run that combo, bone stock?

I had a '98 with the A4 2.73 rear, it ran 14.1 @ 99MPH stock. Then I put a lid on it, did the shifting with the slushbox myself right at 6150 RPM and was rewarded with a best of 13.65 @ 102.95. Most times were 13.8 about 101.

[mystic-z]

So you are saying the stock a4 vs stock m6
The a4 should win in 1/4?
Bold statement, but would the m6 guys agree

But the m6 would have the higher trap because it was closing the gap towards the end therefor actually going faster
at that point.
I,ve read that the 273 cars also normally have a higher trap then the 323 cars is this true + is it because the ls1 has enough tourque to push the taller gears, but too tall of a gear for a good launch.
I realize alot of this is moot once you get into modified cars but i think its interesting to know how they ran right off the showroom floor. Remember whenthey were new + virgin. Anybody keeping 1 that way? It would be sad if in 20 years you couldnt find a nice untouched
one. for everyday geezer driving. Try to find a nice untouched 5.0 these days.
Not that i,m against modified cars, but its nice to have both available. Being an old musclecar collecter in the past the trend was + is to remove all the after market stuff everybody put on in the past + go back to stock.

[shady milkman]

the whole dyno thing to compare t56s and a4 (4l60e or whatever its name is) is sorta a crock. becuase of the ls1's large manufactoring tolerances..so really that article doesnt prove anything..a a4 that is a factory freak is going to beat a "dud" t56 and such on..but yea as already explained..the a4s are great from drag racing..and the t56s are just teh shit :yup: if i had a choice i'd run a t56..but that requires me learning to drive a stick better. :yup:

[mystic-z]

So much for the high trap speed

in reply to the 13.6 at 102.9
+ the 99 + 101

[mystic-z]

I would imagine stop light to stop light the auto must be the winner,also. ??????

[shady milkman]

I would imagine stop light to stop light the auto must be the winner,also. ??????

yea, the 4l60e is better out of the hole and such since it is electronically controled, so you shift at the exact same point over and over again, throw in a stall and edit the shift points and the 4l60e really shines :) :yup:

[mystic-z]

My web tv wont alow me onto the chat room, Just freezes up he teeny hard drive i guess, Thats why i'm yacking away on this thread, + writing these novels.
Compuer on the way.

[shady milkman]

My web tv wont alow me onto the chat room, Just freezes up he teeny hard drive i guess, Thats why i'm yacking away on this thread, + writing these novels.
Compuer on the way.

yea dont worry about it. but yea the 4l60e gets NASTY! with a tune and a stall..i really dont know why people bitch so much about M vs A...both are strong, and with the way new trans are today the performance line is soo thin..i think its the new infinite that has a 7speed auto :love:

[Thorazine Shuffle]

My 2000 WS6 is BONE STOCK down to the lid. With 25psi in the tires, it went 13.46 @ 102 with a 2.0 60'...

[Too Fast]

I don't know what other people think, but I prefer the 6-spd. Better gas mileage and I think more fun to drive. I like to be in control of things. Another reason I am glad I don't have traction control. Also, I got over 27 MPG driving across the country this past year. That was loaded with my wife and 2 kids and all the gear they require. With AC on, my mileage only dropped .7 MPG. Interstate driving, 75 - 80 MPH. I know automatics are more consistent at the drag strip, but who lives there?

[Y2KPewterSS]

I don't know what other people think, but I prefer the 6-spd. Better gas mileage and I think more fun to drive. I like to be in control of things. Another reason I am glad I don't have traction control. Also, I got over 27 MPG driving across the country this past year. That was loaded with my wife and 2 kids and all the gear they require. With AC on, my mileage only dropped .7 MPG. Interstate driving, 75 - 80 MPH. I know automatics are more consistent at the drag strip, but who lives there?

You just described one of many excellent reasons to have a T-56 :yup:

At some point, I would love to get another SS vert with a T-56 for cruising, excellent MPG and controlling the drivetrain :)

[mystic-z]

I think most people given the choice of two identicle camaro's would take the m6,unless for special uses,such as,handicapped driver, knowing you are going to be often in alot of stop + go traffic,heavily modified drag duty, bracket racing,an ls1 for the wife,who doesnt want to shift,a good excuse to get a SECOND camaro, or just want a change,because your last three,were m6's or you do alot of driving + want the siplicity of the auto. At least wit these cars the auto's are in the same perf level as the sticks, where other types are not. The aod mustangs are 3-5 tenths off,+ they have no second gear lockout etc.

[Hot Black Trans-Am]

Even if I had one leg I'd still get a manual. It might be a bit tricky to drive, but it would be worth it. I'd only get an auto if I wanted to build an track only car.

[Fedge]

bone stock down to the lid, my 98 TA M6 (not WS-6) ran 13.4X @ 106.XX...that's at sea level and it was in March...walked out of the hole (2.1X 60') to save the rear and granny shifted to save the trans...

I see a lot of the autos that aren't far off that number, though...they launch pretty damn good, too. I drove a few auto Vettes and they got sideways in second...I was impressed, but autos still bore me driving day to day. (no offense to the auto guys)

i'd love to have one as a track car, though :D

[mystic-z]

Have you driven one with a converter + a shift kit?

Mine is basically stock, lid + filter, magna flow,slight converter, but still breaks the tires loose at 15 -20 mph, and from + dead stop smokes em so hard in 1st I hit the rev limiter almost instantly, bang second +smokes them all the way thru second, on sticky soft compound toyo's, so the fun factor is still there,even in the auto, at least with the 323,s , converter + shift kit. dont know if they do the same stock. And i'm sure the more modified must be even more fun. But i am also a m6 lover too. This is probably one of the only stock perf vehicles I dont mind the auto because they are so strong. I also kind of worry about getting carried away
+ grenading the rear,maybe less chance with auto. If they are smart buildng the new one in 09, they will build it able to handle the punishment of not just the stock power, but with the inevitable power mods also. I firmly believe thats why the stangs are still around + the camaros are not.

[shady milkman]

Have you driven one with a converter + a shift kit?

Mine is basically stock, lid + filter, magna flow,slight converter, but still breaks the tires loose at 15 -20 mph, and from + dead stop smokes em so hard in 1st I hit the rev limiter almost instantly, bang second +smokes them all the way thru second, on sticky soft compound toyo's, so the fun factor is still there,even in the auto, at least with the 323,s , converter + shift kit. dont know if they do the same stock. And i'm sure the more modified must be even more fun. But i am also a m6 lover too. This is probably one of the only stock perf vehicles I dont mind the auto because they are so strong. I also kind of worry about getting carried away
+ grenading the rear,maybe less chance with auto. If they are smart buildng the new one in 09, they will build it able to handle the punishment of not just the stock power, but with the inevitable power mods also. I firmly believe thats why the stangs are still around + the camaros are not.

arent 10 bolts dead in gm's power line up?

[mystic-z]

Sure hope so.

[shady milkman]

Sure hope so.

:lmao: no shit..worst decision ever by gm?? damn close thats for sure

[Fedge]

Have you driven one with a converter + a shift kit?

Mine is basically stock, lid + filter, magna flow,slight converter, but still breaks the tires loose at 15 -20 mph, and from + dead stop smokes em so hard in 1st I hit the rev limiter almost instantly, bang second +smokes them all the way thru second, on sticky soft compound toyo's, so the fun factor is still there,even in the auto, at least with the 323,s , converter + shift kit. dont know if they do the same stock. And i'm sure the more modified must be even more fun. But i am also a m6 lover too. This is probably one of the only stock perf vehicles I dont mind the auto because they are so strong. I also kind of worry about getting carried away
+ grenading the rear,maybe less chance with auto. If they are smart buildng the new one in 09, they will build it able to handle the punishment of not just the stock power, but with the inevitable power mods also. I firmly believe thats why the stangs are still around + the camaros are not.

can't push in the clutch and just stab the gas a few times to hear the motor sing...can't blip the throttle on a downshift as you go into a 60* right hander...just can't row through the gears...that's what I find boring about an automatic, not the performance of the car :D

[99Ztwenty8]

I wouldnt trade my m6 for the world, its just way too much fun to whip around, i wont argue that the a4 will make me look silly on a track, but i would say i have more fun on the backstreets and highway.