View Full Version : Stock vs Hurst shifter
Will I notice a difference if I install a stock 2002 WS6 Hurst shifter instead of my stock 98 GM shifter? Will it fit?
30thbird
03-16-2006, 09:24 AM
Yes you will notice a difference. Shorter throw but slightly higher in/out of gear handball effort. Yes it will exchange exactly.
30thbird
03-17-2006, 08:09 AM
Ok. Do you need one of these(factory Hurst)?
Bandit02
03-17-2006, 08:17 AM
If you really want a hurst get the shifter direct from hurst not the gm version. The gm version did not have shift stops on it for bangin gears where the shifter direct from hurst does. Other than that they are identical shifters in appearance and feel.
Ok. Do you need one of these(factory Hurst)?
one is already on the way to my home...
thanks anyway.
it's a GM Hurst shifter, can I modify it to have the shift stops?
30thbird
03-17-2006, 11:19 AM
You do not need the stops. In fact if they are adjusted carrectly they do nothing / incorrectly, they will damage your synchros and forks. Therefore , in this case, none is better.
lmt0705
03-21-2006, 05:18 PM
thats easy for you to say as long as you dont keep overshifting and fry your synchros. get the shifter with the stops and adjust it properly, case closed
thats easy for you to say as long as you dont keep overshifting and fry your synchros. get the shifter with the stops and adjust it properly, case closed
So you are saying that stock parts aren't as precise as they should?
Bandit02
03-22-2006, 06:02 AM
The shift stops function just as they should, over extending the shift could possibly break a fork that’s the reason for them. Even when engaged in gear there is still movement forward and back. Unless you do a lot of racing or really enjoy ripping through the gears they are just an added safety cushion.
30thbird
03-23-2006, 06:15 AM
If you really knew what you were talking about you would know the the shift rail( what you control by the shifter) has a full limited travel in the guide plate. This is an internal control that will not allow an over travel. What sells shifter stops is the mistaken notion that a man has enough energy to bend a fork in an over travel- not even a gorill can do this. What actually bends forks is a clash shift. The clashing, rejection of the sleeve from the gear, puts a force on the fork that would break an arm if you even tried to hold it back. If you are burning up synchros it is not because you over-extend a shift fork , its because you are shifting against a clutch.The synchronizer only works to match speed before the sleeve engages the gear.There is no stop that will do anything to protect from a clash shift. The stops are just a marketing ploy by the aftermarket shifter manufactureres. If the stop actually had merrit do you really think the trans would not come with them new?
What is a clash shift? Is is when you try to insert a gear before the parts aren't at the same speed?
30thbird
03-23-2006, 10:50 AM
A clash shift is a shift the is attempted when the clutch is not fully dis engaged or when a synchronizer blocker ring is worn to the point that it no longer matches speed . It is mostly ( but not always audible)characterized by a gear grinding sound.
I finally installed the Hurst shifter (from a 2002 WS6).
What a difference! It has a shorter throw and the return springs are stronger, this allows faster and more precise shifts.
:)
Danger731
04-04-2006, 06:08 PM
A clash shift is a shift the is attempted when the clutch is not fully dis engaged or when a synchronizer blocker ring is worn to the point that it no longer matches speed . It is mostly ( but not always audible)characterized by a gear grinding sound.
oh that's that noise !, :lol:
30thbird
04-06-2006, 06:57 AM
That is not a happy noise . Its hard part -to-hard part wear going on.
About shifting: when I shift (no matter from what - to what gear) I always have to wait a little (1/2 - 1 second). Like if the synchro rings would need a moment to adjust the gears speed. It never grinds, it just take a little time.
The clutch is desingaging well too.
Is it normal?
Mine is a 97 Borg Warner filled with mineral ATF.
With Synchromesh it was better but in winter this oil is too thick
30thbird
04-06-2006, 12:52 PM
I think what you are feeling is the synchronizer work being done. If you apply more handball load, you may overwork the sync. and cause a clash. If your trans has not been rebuilt, it has a composite paper lining on the blocker rings. This material can glaze from abusive shifts and that can cause a permanent loss of capacity to synchronize. It is also designed for ATF.Syncromesh is an approved synthetic blend but it is still a thicker oil and that will affect high-demand shifts.Did your trans ever see other synthetic fluids? Did your trans see heavy duty before you? ( Or by you?)
This is an occasion T56, theoretically from a "non raced" 99 Camaro with 40'000 miles.
No idea what the previous owner did because I bought it from a shop as swap kit for my in origin automatic car.
No heavy duty by me...
I used synchromesh only during a couple of weeks and I did like it, but only after a good warm up (1/2 hour in winter).
I filled once an Agip ATF oil (dexron III spec) which is supposed to be synthetic but I'm not sure.
It did shift better during one or two days, then it started to grind (!!!).
I put back the mineral ATF dexron III and since then it's ok (never grinded).
It just has this little delay. Not too bad, but I think this tranny could do better.
Is there something to "treat" the synchro-rings without opening the tranny?
Like an additive?
30thbird
04-12-2006, 06:55 AM
You are playing with fire when you contemplate additives. Friction modifiers that are intended for gear oils can delaminate the organic material that lines the synchro blocker rings. Yes they will shift better for awhile, but at the cost of useful life. Thicker oils( like synchromesh) allow for shoother shifts but impede quicker shifts. If you do not know that the blockers in your box were changed from the paper/ organic originals to the carbon-particle "new" parts, you may have damage to the synchros from its prior life that are giving you the performance you don't like. This can either be from use or oil fill.The carbon-particle blockers produce a more aggressive ( notchy) shift but are more forgiving to hard use AND synthetic oils.
Is there a way to know it the tranny has been rebuilt?
Like some number on the tag?
The sealant between the different case parts looks like a black RTV (if this helps).
The tranny is a 97 Borg Warner (it's stamped somewhere).
Maybe I'm worrying too much... but I never tried another manual F-body 'cause they are pretty rare over here.
30thbird
04-12-2006, 10:07 AM
If it is original, it has paper/ organic linings. There is a tag under one of the case-to-extension housing bolts( it may be color-coded). It should have several number sets on it.
1386-XXX = model.
6 character julian date code.
GM part number.
serial number.
If it is original, it has paper/ organic linings. There is a tag under one of the case-to-extension housing bolts( it may be color-coded). It should have several number sets on it.
1386-XXX = model.
6 character julian date code.
GM part number.
serial number.
How do I know what it is or if it has been rebuilt?
The "Borg Warner" name and production date is part of the casting and not stamped.
Is the model number or the julian date that derminates what it is?
30thbird
04-18-2006, 07:01 AM
Any ID cast into the exterior is a casting part reference only.
An LS1 Fcar T56 is a 1386-000-020 w/Hurst, -017 w/std
The GM number is 12552099 for the 017, 12561561 for the 020
The build date code will start with a letter for the month( I is not used) the next two digets are the day and the last two are the last diget of the year and the shift produced. Below this code is the serial number. All of this is stamped on a metal tag bolted on the extension housing flange.
The original RTV is a black product. Any other colored RTV indicates repair/ rework.
here my tag (which is blue)
12552099 M0173
13-86-017 E16106
The RTV is black and looks original
So... What is the year? Sorry but I don't understand.
Thanks! Stefano
30thbird
04-20-2006, 07:02 AM
O17 non-Hurst model built 01Dec. 1997, 3rd shift.
The E is the change letter for the model and 16106 is the serial number.
so in terms of synchro rings: old style, isn't it?
so far it shifts good, a little notchy depending on temperature and RPM, sometime it takes a moment to be able to insert the gears. I guess it's normal
30thbird
04-20-2006, 11:15 AM
Yes , it has the organic/paper-lined blocker rings and an aluminum 3/4 fork. Actually, the older rings produce a smoother shift feel.If you don't beat on the car, you can get good service the way it is. My 99 is as original and operates well. I have easy access to the upgrade parts and the resource to install them but I prefer the feel of the older parts and choose to leave it as is.
How do newer parts feel? Because they are "new" I can imagine they are better...
I don't beat on it: to shift I apply a moderate pressure to allow the synchro rings to align the gears, than the tranny will "shift by itself". This takes up to a second but I think it's the best way to shift.
Why force it? I'm not racing ;)
30thbird
04-20-2006, 02:13 PM
The new parts are more durable. That is they will take more abuse/ survive more abuse. The trade off is in the shift feel They produce a more grabby/ notchy shift feel. Since you do not drive with maximum capacity demand, you would not require the benefit of the carbon-particle parts. AND you can enjoy a smoother shift.
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